- From: CCG Minutes Bot <minutes@w3c-ccg.org>
- Date: Wed, 03 May 2023 04:27:55 +0000
Thanks to Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week! The transcript for the call is now available here: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2023-05-02/ Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes. Audio of the meeting is available at the following location: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2023-05-02/audio.ogg ---------------------------------------------------------------- W3C CCG Weekly Teleconference Transcript for 2023-05-02 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/advanced_search?hdr-1-name=subject&hdr-1-query=%5BAGENDA&period_month=May&period_year=2023&index-grp=Public__FULL&index-type=t&type-index=public-credentials&resultsperpage=20&sortby=date Organizer: Mike Prorock, Kimberly Linson, Harrison Tang Scribe: Our Robot Overlords Present: Harrison Tang, Jacques von Benecke, Bob Wyman, Jennie Meier, Mike Prorock, Gregory Natran, Sharon Leu, Kimberly Linson, David Chadwick, Drummond Reed, Stuart Freeman, Joe Andrieu, Will, Chandi Cumaranatunge, Marty Reed, Mike Xu, Erica Connell, Kaliya Young, Nis Jespersen , Hiroyuki Sano, Ted Thibodeau, Paul Dietrich GS1, Phil L (P1), Sandy Aggarwal, James Chartrand, Jeff O - HumanOS, Orie Steele, Ryan Grant, Dmitri Zagidulin, Adrian Gropper, Kerri Lemoie, Phil Long, Steve Magennis, Lucy Yang, Nate Otto, Keith Kowal, David I. Lehn, Greg Bernstein, BrentZ, TallTed // Ted Thibodeau (he/him) (OpenLinkSw.com) Our Robot Overlords are scribing. Harrison_Tang: Right good morning and for for jocks at losing baton I think so good evening or good night but thank you for joining us this week so I'll be facing some CG weekly meeting so this week we are very honor and have Jog and ramen here to present self so Variety in Baton and we'll go over that main agenda later but before then just want to do some quick. Harrison_Tang: quick code of ethics and. <kaliya_identitywoman> I tried via the app on my phone - no sound. Anyways would be great have some attention to this. Harrison_Tang: Contact reminder more or less just make sure that we are respectful to each other and acknowledge each other's opinions I think we've been doing that pretty well for the last year or two that I'm here so that but just want to do that quick reminder at the very very start quick IP note anyone can participate in these calls however all substantive contributions to atcg work items must be members of the ccg with full IP our agreement signed. Harrison_Tang: I'm make. Harrison_Tang: You have it. Harrison_Tang: 3C account and assign the community contributor license agreement if you have any questions any time just reach out to any of the cultures. Harrison_Tang: Quick call notes these meanings are being recorded and and all transcribed by the transcription a no service we will publish these meeting minutes we think about two to three days after this meeting conclude we use GT chat to Q speakers giving a call so you can type in Cube plus to add yourself to the queue or q- to remove it at any point in time. Harrison_Tang: you can just do Que question to see. Harrison_Tang: All right any introductions were introduced reintroduction so if you're new to the community or if you haven't been active and are rejoining please feel free to unmute and introduce yourself. Harrison_Tang: Don't be shy. Harrison_Tang: Okay I think we can leave the last five minutes you know just in case other people Australian they want to introduce Your Glory or reintroduce themselves at the end of the meeting all right any announcement or reminders. Harrison_Tang: Hi Julia please. Kaliya Young: https://www.apacdigitalid.org/en/content/past-events Kaliya Young: Hi two things one we if since I announced it here I wanted to share the results from the APAC digital identity unconference you can see a picture of all our of our all the beautiful people who came and book a proceedings if you want to go through that and in in Europe in. Kaliya Young: https://diceurope.org/ Kaliya Young: https://diceurope.org/prpoposed-topics Kaliya Young: Seven to nine in Zurich is the digital identity unconference Europe a lot of great folks coming we now have a potential topics page of so you can see the sort of things folks are going to talk about so if you have any colleagues in Europe please let them know about it and I think it's going to be great. Harrison_Tang: Thank you Claudia. Harrison_Tang: Any other announcements or reminders. Harrison_Tang: Okay any updates on the work items. Harrison_Tang: All right so let's get to the main agenda so I'll share earlier today we have we're very glad to have a jock to present on self Sovereign identity in Bhutan so actually Korea sent out an email and we have a discussion in the ccg email list in regards to put on adopting South sobriety a couple months ago and we're very very glad to have jock here he's the CTO. Harrison_Tang: of track Holdings. Harrison_Tang: Chairman of the board at King do Tech Park and you know he is instrumental in actually convincing the Potomac government to adopt soft Saga Atlanta technology so we're very glad that he's here and now they will share the insights or on the challenges and opportunities of SSI and its potential to actually Empower kind of individuals sovereignty of their identity important so but Jog and drama. Harrison_Tang: and please take. Jacques_von_Benecke: I prepared it couple of slides just to sort of guide us through the through the process I'm just going to figure out how to. Jacques_von_Benecke: Get them to come out. Jacques_von_Benecke: It looks like a present. <drummond_reed> I'm here to support Jacques on any questions that come up, but this story is all his. Jacques_von_Benecke: My screen is still saying the conference hasn't started so I wonder if that's what's stopping me from actually accessing the. Harrison_Tang: Are you using Chrome or. Jacques_von_Benecke: I am using Chrome that's okay I managed to get it to disappear okay let me just share screen. Harrison_Tang: Okay I see it perfect. Jacques_von_Benecke: Let me know if you're awesome so I'm very happy to also share the stage with Drummond so I've known Drummond for a little bit over a year since he's been helping and working on the project so I'm going to mention Dominic a few times during the presentation today because he's been instrumental to our project as well and then I've seen some other people on the screen as they loaded in that I obviously. Jacques_von_Benecke: Lee know as well so Calia being one of them. Jacques_von_Benecke: The unconference in a pack what a wonderful event and I'm going to the one in Zurich in May so sorry in June so you know if any of you turn up there please let's have a chat and have a coffee and catch up so there's only five slides in there's a couple of these a couple of short videos to actually just show you how the product worked as part of the journey so most of what you see today is actually out of what we call a Communications back that we use for what we call Direct. Jacques_von_Benecke: actor level and higher so the ministry secretaries. <drummond_reed> Most excellent that Jacques will be going to the Zurich event. I wish I could go, but I'm using up all my Gen travel budget to go to the European Identity Conference in Berlin next week. Jacques_von_Benecke: Limbo switch I'm the actual ministers the way we know they've been other countries and then also the Prime Minister and his majesty and so all the very senior people at any point if you want to ask any questions the stuff please just shut that me or point something in my direction I can only see my screen that I'm sharing so I won't see if you put up a hand or communicate just please pick up so the agenda is very simple. Jacques_von_Benecke: a couple of things about the journey so far. Jacques_von_Benecke: In on this journey just over a year some of the top challenges that we've had getting to where we are today and then specifically a little bit about the journey with our government and then some ideas on how we think we can make their or how the implementation could be made easier so what are the things that have been stopping us or slowing us down so what does the journey look like so far. Jacques_von_Benecke: We started with the book which is Drummond book he wrote co-wrote it with Alex and we read a couple of Articles and stuff on self-serving identity and I met does your Ghillie so does shoe is sort of a title the same as you would see a lord or a very high-ranking official in the world families or aristocracies does ukulele I met him in Singapore and we talked about this particular project that they had which are we still going to run on. Jacques_von_Benecke: pki and normal pki and I had written out. Jacques_von_Benecke: The sign I said hey this sounds like a good idea should we try this and he liked it and so that kind of got the ball rolling and about a month later they offered me a job and about two months later I rocked up with my wife in return and that's how the journey started and so we were then introduced by what was then all which the owners are very key platform and they had many different names which Drummond of course would fall and so. Jacques_von_Benecke: we got introduced to Drummond and the book and we read the book and we really like the book a lot so the book became. Drummond Reed: https://www.manning.com/books/self-sovereign-identity Jacques_von_Benecke: And a lot of what we do in the project actually comes out of the book and so we often refer it to ourselves SSI Bible. Jacques_von_Benecke: And so from there we built what we call our product Vision canvas for the national digital identity which is then based on Sovereign identity and had two very key principles security above everything and privacy equal to security so we wanted to make sure that all the Securities they to protect people's data but that is also from a privacy point of view and that people can have their for own and Control Data in that way and because we turn is such a small nation. Jacques_von_Benecke: we only about 750,000 people. Jacques_von_Benecke: We have to think globally you know there is there is no real scale to actually make this platform scale to the point where we can sell it to other nations so he's Majesty when we presented the project to him for his final approvals said he likes the kpis and he likes the he likes the unique value proposition and all these things but and the particular indicators so the goals and the metrics and stuff that for success and he said I only want one metric to be the. Jacques_von_Benecke: the success criteria. Jacques_von_Benecke: Drink and that is that you have to earn at least 1 million u.s. dollars with it outside of the done so he made us from day one actually think very Global about how we went about this project and to make sure that we can actually share what we've learned and then potentially also sell of the components or actually sell and run identity on behalf of other countries for them so that's how we went and then from the vision we went to a ndi roadmap and by the way if you want any of the things. Jacques_von_Benecke: which I show on the screens except of course Germans book. Jacques_von_Benecke: One but everything else I'm happy to share and I'll send you copies of it in the project roadmap what you see in the thumbnail is a lot of swim lanes and then also a lot of other sort of arrows on the top each of the arrows on the top actually represents either a POC that we did or a pilot that we did and the right-hand most one is the one that we actually when we launched which is later fully nationally launch which is later this year we've already done one launch and I'll show you what was in the first ones versus. Jacques_von_Benecke: as what was in the second launch and why we have to. Jacques_von_Benecke: but what I wanted to show you. Jacques_von_Benecke: The top blue line that you see in the swim Lane is the technical line is the line that everybody is accustomed to you hey you have to build some technology for this to work all of the lot some lines below are non-technical so they Communications their education they helped it how to make sure that we include everybody whether the educated with it they have access to the internet with that they have access to Smartphones at to make sure that we don't harm anybody but we include everybody in the same way. Jacques_von_Benecke: so you know and we spend a lot of. Jacques_von_Benecke: Communicating we have about two hundred and Twenty-One or twenty-two stakeholders those up a little bit and down a little bit every now and again and we communicate with them every single month of this project and sometimes more than once a month and we're either meet them face-to-face or we send them an email update or we sent them a newsletter something to that effect just to tell them what we've achieved what we doing in the next month or two invite them to see actually what a new pc looks like and we do rotate the people that we have invite and we try and have. Jacques_von_Benecke: have a POC every month but not look we are not a gap more than two months between. Jacques_von_Benecke: Boc that we. Jacques_von_Benecke: You can show themselves so if it's okay with you I'd like to show you a couple of very short videos the first one is two minutes long it actually just shows you how we do the onboarding into the app into the digital wallet using the Biometrics and the data from the government and then the next one is just some of the verifiable credentials that we issue how do we do single sign-on with it and then the last one is a decentralized shut up one of the requirements that they've asked us is that we should have. Jacques_von_Benecke: thing that is in identity platform which we then interpret as a digital wallet that. Jacques_von_Benecke: Troll so we expanded that a little bit they wanted something that can sign contracts digitally so we have a digital signature app or technical digital signature capability as part of the app and then we have a decentralized shut up because they want something that the government can trust and they don't trust what's up in which atoms and those sort of platforms and then the fourth thing that they wanted is they wanted to be able to do digital payments so we haven't we have a working version of the digital wallet for payments but we. Jacques_von_Benecke: an integrated with this version of the wallet that we showing you today. Jacques_von_Benecke: so the onboarding one is. <ted_thibodeau> Link to this deck? Jacques_von_Benecke: You can probably not see it because I think it's still sharing a bit still sharing my one screen right. Jacques_von_Benecke: Let me just quickly switch. Jacques_von_Benecke: Do a whole screen because then I can switch between them. Jacques_von_Benecke: Can you still see them. Harrison_Tang: Yes we can. Harrison_Tang: Yes no sound though right. Jacques_von_Benecke: And it's actually just music playing in the background the videos. <phil_t3> Bandwidth doesn't really work with video and a voice over. Jacques_von_Benecke: If you it basically always used to you and. Jacques_von_Benecke: Let me confirm that. Harrison_Tang: Jock sorry we can't really hear you and watch the video at the same time so maybe we can play the video first and then you can comment on it. Mike Prorock: +1 Ted Thibodeau: I'm Breaking All the Rules if you could put a link to this deck someplace that'd be great. <mprorock> thanks Ted <harrison_tang> I'll ask Jac to share it after the meeting. It's a bit hard to multi-task at the same time :) Ted Thibodeau: :+1: Jacques_von_Benecke: Hopefully you can hear me again and I'll post a link to the deck that has the links to the videos in and make sure that they publicly available I think we've published them on our YouTube channel so I'll make sure that I'll share the links with you so what you saw in the video was a person typing in a bunch of information which we use to retrieve your record from the government DC Arc is our government that looks after. Jacques_von_Benecke: a birth and. Jacques_von_Benecke: And citizenship and stuff like that and then if we do retrieve a record a single record from the database meaning there's enough data in there that is uniquely identifying you we then go through the facial-recognition part so everybody in Bhutan has had their fingerprints taken their facial pictures taken some have written her scans some have Palm vein scans and some have finger vein Scouts because we tried a lot of different types of Biometrics to see how they work what the performance is like and things like that and then once. Jacques_von_Benecke: the person's face was recognized as a life- test. Jacques_von_Benecke: We went into the sort of home screen of the app and the in then you saw messages appear at the bottom that said we created a relationship with DC Arc so that's a peer-to-peer a unique relationship with DC Arc between that wallet and DC Arc and then it took that data and the Biometrics and created a foundational identity which was that VC that you saw the in that was issued called the foundational identity and then all the rest of it was just showing how you could favorite so it turns up as the in the favorite spot in your app and. Jacques_von_Benecke: like that so that was all that one was about. Jacques_von_Benecke: Next one is just using the same wallet scanning a QR code and then it telling you that hey you work for DHI which is the same company I happen to work with other so it's just a way for us to show people how we can prove that you work and why that's important this one's about a minute long. <ted_thibodeau> That seems gov sovereign, not self? Jacques_von_Benecke: So what you saw in that video is just an example of how we created the employee verifiable credential and then because we have that uh no in a wallet we could then use that to sign into one some of the DHI system so we happen to sign into the E recruitment system to see whether they are more but so what we'll do is in the next one that we show you where we do the the lock on there is actually two bars so the first time the first part of the video that will see as way somebody for the. Jacques_von_Benecke: first-time users the single sign-on so they kind of register in the background. Jacques_von_Benecke: Difference in the in use case or the flow when they actually do the single sign on the second time onwards. Jacques_von_Benecke: So the last one so what you basically so there's somebody registering and then the second time just logging in so to ask you for a pin and then it it automatically signed you in so the last one is just the chat up and this one is just to show you that it's a it works well instead of what's up. Jacques_von_Benecke: Not a very exciting demo for that part but it works really well and so the part that you didn't see this that they can obviously do group messages and they can also the part that you didn't see is that you have to have a relationship with that person before you can actually invite them to a chat so there isn't a you don't have the functionality to search for user for them to be able to for them to for you too. Jacques_von_Benecke: to jump. Jacques_von_Benecke: Into the chat but will show that on so that's the journey up to now where we are and we did have a launch in February so the functionality that I showed you in the different things with some of the the use cases that was available and we deliberately made his majesty the Crown Prince the first digital citizen of Bhutan it was on request of his father the king and on the 21st of February was a very special occasion because it was his father's birthday. Jacques_von_Benecke: and it. Jacques_von_Benecke: A very auspicious day for the Buddhist religion religion so those things plus it was the princess seventh birthday a week earlier all those things came together and they really wanted to you know for us to launch the identity on the that day so the first thing the media asked as well so what you know what is the what is the prince going to do with it and the key part there is the actual chat up so between the Royal Family. Jacques_von_Benecke: they use that shut up. Jacques_von_Benecke: To use that app and so they feel quite a lot more safe using that chat up because there were some of the Royal Family's what subjects that were broken into or stolen A couple of years ago and because this is a decentralized app and it's a peer-to-peer relationship type app it's very hard for people to actually break into that that conversations that they have on that app so that's why it was important for his majesty to launch it on a day and the next launch. Jacques_von_Benecke: why isn't Jason. Jacques_von_Benecke: Calendar date we created a set of use cases that we believe will help us with adoption and we will launch the moment that we reach all of those use cases and so the general time frame is the end of Q2 so around the end of June but it's not a fixed in it's not a fixed date in the calendar so that's kind of where we are today. Jacques_von_Benecke: Let's have a quick look at so what were the key challenges to implementing and getting to where we are the first one was just knowledge it was so hard to get people with SSI type experience and understanding not just the technology because the technology part is that really is not that hard to get bright it's making sure that we you know don't harm people by the way that we do things that we don't as technologists take shortcuts to. Jacques_von_Benecke: Mint and get something to work and we break the SSI principles there's not. Jacques_von_Benecke: You have them. Jacques_von_Benecke: But it's very easy to make a technical decision to make the system work easier which would compromise the principles and because security and privacy is so important the other principles with it the SSI principles are very important to us as well so we always trade-off technology against the principles and the principles always win so whenever we have an architecture log and there's a lot of trade-offs that will really had to do where we override a technical. Jacques_von_Benecke: decision based on because we potentially might break one of the SSI. Jacques_von_Benecke: But yeah just getting people with that right level of experience because it's such a new technology and stuff was really really hard so we spend a lot of time training people on the philosophy of SSI and how to then Implement that in code so we don't break the principles the next one is regulation we do have quite a bit of very old regulation in Bhutan one which is very common in other countries which says you know personal identifiable information. Jacques_von_Benecke: it is not allowed to. Jacques_von_Benecke: The borders of Bhutan and we deliberately made the decision to have an edge wallet so you can carry it on your phone and therefore it's always with you and you know some of the some of the things we're going to put in the issue educational credentials and also a digital passport so in talking to each of our one-hop Airline Partners or people who live around us so India Singapore Nepal Bangladesh about potential in the next four to five years instead of using the traditional. Jacques_von_Benecke: passport that we have tried to use an SSI passport. Jacques_von_Benecke: And so those are interesting conversations that are taking place at the moment but to overcome the the regulation that we have which we call it mud 2018 we wrote Our Own act and hence Drummond stepping into the fault and drop it actually helped us write most of the bull volume wil working hours and a big chunk of the governance framework which sits behind the ACT I should currently it's a bill because we waiting for. Jacques_von_Benecke: for Parliament to enact it and we're hoping that. <drummond_reed> It's my side job, writing goverment acts ;-) Jacques_von_Benecke: This in this May June sitting the reason it wasn't done last year November is for some reason we forgot to understand that it has to be translated into dongle which is the local official language for government and police otherwise it cannot become go from a bill to an act and so the second problem that we had was there wasn't enough technical words and phrases to translate the ACT into danke. Jacques_von_Benecke: lie without losing. <harrison_tang> that's a cool side job @drummond Jacques_von_Benecke: The information so we had to actually go back to the language professors and people and say hey and explain to them some of the words and the intricacies of the Technologies and stuff that we want to put in the act so that they could create words and phrases that we could translate to into danke and not lose the intent of what we are putting in the act and it took us we've been working on that now for the best part of 13 months 12 to 13 months. Jacques_von_Benecke: and we're at the stage where we hopefully you know getting ready for them. Jacques_von_Benecke: Act the next one was just Communications and it's it's really really hard to actually take a lot of people on a journey with you and so we do have a constitutional monarchy which means his majesty the king is still the head of the government but at the ministerial level and going down the ministerial path so the secretaries and the directors. Jacques_von_Benecke: His majesty and they will. Jacques_von_Benecke: I am be as polite as they can but they don't always do exactly what he says in the time frame that he wants so we made a conscious decision to spend a lot of time and effort on Communications and to take these people on a journey with us and it did actually go quite slow and stuff up until the launch with his majesty Kelsey the prince because at that point we gave all of the ministers dramas book and we also made ramen sign the book so that it's you know. Jacques_von_Benecke: unique to each one of the ministers which they you know really really. Jacques_von_Benecke: And now every time we meet them the book is in display so we can all see that the book is there and I'll show you the communications back so we now also have a Communications back that all of the ministers including the prime minister to carry with them and when they have conversations across the world that actually talked about in the eye and they actually talk to people using the tech we've given them and they reference Drummond's book and they talk you know comprehensively and well about SSI which I think after a year talking to them almost every. <drummond_reed> We never anticipated using the book for educating government ministers ;-) Jacques_von_Benecke: month was a. Jacques_von_Benecke: Was it big. <harrison_tang> @drummond Sounds like you are a celebrity in Bhutan now :D <drummond_reed> I would LOVE to go!! <sandy_aggarwal> Roger that! Jacques_von_Benecke: But do not underestimate the amount of time and effort it takes to communicate and take the government with us on that Journey even with the sort of top down push from his majesty the next one is trust there is a huge digital transformation happening in Bhutan at both public and private sectors and there is a lot of distrust at the moment for anybody that is foreign. Jacques_von_Benecke: Ali if you see. Jacques_von_Benecke: For Ian and even I'm cluster Singaporean although I'm Australian because I lived in Singapore just before I moved here and the reason for that is they see all this this really fast change happening to a digital economy and they don't necessarily always trust it so we do spend quite a bit of time in no inviting people to discussion forums we have hackathons where we deliberately say that you have to come up with Solutions using the end. Jacques_von_Benecke: g.i. we had a whole day. Jacques_von_Benecke: Workshops for all of the it companies in Baton way that we invited them and we fed them for a whole day and gave them drinks and and then showed them and taught them how to actually do single sign-on with ndi so we have a lot of these in events to try and make sure that there is a higher level of trust that that starting to create and people trust not only the technology but the people who work in the technology and so we do in Bhutan try to face most of the media and. Jacques_von_Benecke: so sort of those sort of people with a lot more Brittany's on the panels and a lot more Brittany. Jacques_von_Benecke: Faces in the. Jacques_von_Benecke: So they don't see mine too much and then I tend to do most of the international conversations. Jacques_von_Benecke: I'm and then the last one is just gifted and talented people we really struggle to get good technical people there are a lot of good technical people around but be done at the moment is going through a brain drain we are losing roughly just over 1,000 people per month leaving boot on the technical really well qualified people going to Australia's I'm going to Canada's I'm going to Kuwait and so keeping talented people. Jacques_von_Benecke: is very high. Jacques_von_Benecke: Because the moment we also started talking about our capability in your team a lot of the people in my teams have had offers from people trying to poach them which isn't great but we were expecting that so we did spend a lot of time on Talent acquisition and retention and that sort of stuff but it's really hard to get talented people who are not just pure technologist but who also understand the principles of SSI and inherently want to do the right. Jacques_von_Benecke: right thing. Jacques_von_Benecke: That's very hard to get those three things in one person because it's really important that they want to do the right thing understand the principles and then coded it's almost like the technical part is the last part that we look at and so it's really difficult so a little bit more about our journey with the government some of you might have seen that picture in Forbes a couple of weeks ago that is the. Jacques_von_Benecke: so we called. Jacques_von_Benecke: Them that's the Bhutan flag with the dragon and he normally just holds coins but those happen to be Bitcoins so there was a lot of stuff in the in the paper recently about us mining Bitcoin and having mine Bitcoin for some time there's a lot of people that feel it's not right that our government can do these sort of projects including the national digital identity which is for that for the people of Bhutan quite foreign and. Jacques_von_Benecke: them not talking to the people about it so there are. Jacques_von_Benecke: Generally two Transformations that happen some Transformations and Technology projects that we can openly discuss and talk about and the government shares it with the people because they feel that they would understand why we are doing it and it's not that hard to explain the benefit of it just like Bitcoin mining ndi is quite difficult for people to understand until you show them the real benefit it's one thing to say to a farmer that's living in Gallup ooh hey. Jacques_von_Benecke: you know what. Jacques_von_Benecke: Not going to take you two days to come to a government offers to pay two dollars of license fee and then another two days for you to travel back to your house you can now do it in your your bedroom they understand the word but they don't really understand the concept and they don't really believe it because about three years ago there was a project where they did actually do a lot of eServices but what happened somewhere in between there was a mismatch and the eServices some eServices still require you to take paperwork too. Jacques_von_Benecke: her physical offers so they didn't really see the benefit and so they. Jacques_von_Benecke: Mistrust that a little bit and so that's a mistress that's in the people also said at the very high level at the secretary of the government level at the different departments and The Minister's so we spend a lot of time like I said before taking them on that journey and making sure that they really understand but you know what's that second level of benefit yes I can have an ID yes I can have a credential that I work in a place I can single sign-on so I don't have to remember user ID password but you know it's not really that big a benefit so. Jacques_von_Benecke: one of the examples that we are showing the government now is the Deep integration that we doing with some of the the banking system so the. Jacques_von_Benecke: That we owned which is. Jacques_von_Benecke: Old Bank of Bhutan we are doing a bank opening part in the app which the wallet will soluble you know put all your data into the forms and will take about five seconds to open a bank account now there's about 20 pages of paper you have to fill in these two stamps you have to put on there's a lot of fingerprints inside me that happens so it takes about a month to open a bank account and so that's the real sort of benefit that we want to show them and then we want to take some of the e-government services and redo the flow so that they can really see the wallet working in those services. Jacques_von_Benecke: so every bhutanese as an example have to do a audit clearance and a security clearance every single year to maintain their job. Jacques_von_Benecke: Those are some of the. Jacques_von_Benecke: Services which we are integrating now as part of this adoption roll out the be talking about so that way we know that everybody will use the platform really is and they will see and feel the benefit with especially the security clearance because they wouldn't have to take all the documents get it signed photocopied and stamped and print it and all that sort of stuff the next one is actually the Royal government of Bhutan which is the the icon you see there we did spend a lot of time with them convincing them that we should actually. Jacques_von_Benecke: actually write an act and I have the ACT open here so I can show you. Jacques_von_Benecke: And it's not a huge act because we did try to actually learn specifically a lot of things from Canada we're very close to Tom bouma and John Jordan from Canada and we learn a lot from them around how they set up their standards and so we kind of learning from that around interoperability and not making the act too technical I'm and rather moving as much of those technical things to the. Jacques_von_Benecke: the governance framework as we can. <drummond_reed> The National Digital Identity Act is designed to empower the NDI Governance Framework. The latter is based on the ToIP governance metamodel. Jacques_von_Benecke: The ACT does talk a lot about the specifically things about governance interoperability policies the decentralized brachii is the digital credentials wallet digital agents all these sort of things and again we've shared this act with many people so you know if you want a copy of the ACT you're more than welcome and we'll share it after the meeting. Jacques_von_Benecke: the next. <drummond_reed> More info here: https://trustoverip.org/news/2022/02/01/the-toip-foundation-releases-its-first-official-governance-specifications/ Jacques_von_Benecke: Big my which is the regulator in Bhutan the regulated almost as much b as the government or the laws do as an example I'll give an example we had a bank outage because of an internet problem for about 3 days some people couldn't pay for the groceries and stuff and they find the bank almost a million dollars so and they're very quick to do that so they like to really scrutinize what you're doing and because what. Jacques_von_Benecke: are doing with the national digital identity by putting your. <kaliya_identitywoman> I'm curious if you have shared the bill/act with UNCETRAL - https://uncitral.un.org/en/mlit Jacques_von_Benecke: On your phone which you could take outside of the physical borders of Bhutan they are really sort of kind of waiting and saying hey don't make this wallet and things work with people leaving before you have the ACT fully signed and enacted by the government so they are getting a little bit more friendly but we have been working with them for months and months and months and months so we getting there. Jacques_von_Benecke: and the last one is just. <drummond_reed> Great question. Ask Jacques if there is time at the end. Jacques_von_Benecke: And communication so I wanted to show you what the deck looks like so this is the the deck that The Minister's use including the prime minister so you can see the icons at the bottom is Guff Tech Bhutan which is the government technology agency and then DHI is us and then the icons that you see obviously is a national digital identity I'm just going to flick very quickly three years six slides it's very it's just so you can get a high-level view of what we're doing so talks a little bit about the. Jacques_von_Benecke: background that talks about some of the security stuff some of the. Jacques_von_Benecke: And then the verifiable credentials and where it's stored digital identity and proves and that sort of stuff then we talked a lot about the philosophy and this is probably something that we spend a lot of time for people to understand how this is different to what they used to wear DC Arc has a big database with everybody's data in linked to their parents and grandparents and way they live and their phone numbers and and how that's all going to change let me talk a little bit about the the technology is about that. Jacques_von_Benecke: some cryptography and Trust route management and that sort of stuff the. Jacques_von_Benecke: In here we in the ACT actually put a part in that says if you are an organization that wants to be part of this ecosystem you have to have a current legal entity identifier so that's that's the equivalent of a national digital identity but for companies and we make sure that both of those are in place so that we can use verifiable credentials for companies as well so talks a little bit about the technology then we talked specifically about the benefits for individuals. Jacques_von_Benecke: visuals and organizations how that's going to make their lives better. Jacques_von_Benecke: Talk a little bit about where we are in the different parts of the project and that's basically it so beyond this point there is nothing much that we want to share that we think is really important so we felt that if we leave something behind then it'd be much easier for people to remember so we created a foldable brochure if you like and the left-hand side is what you see on the back end and it talks just a little. Jacques_von_Benecke: it what are the type of services that you get with a platform like. Jacques_von_Benecke: In the middle column is an example of the ndi and actions that talks a little bit about a person that wants to have a job and wants to open a bank account and how that would work and then on the right hand side we talked a lot about the different benefits that you could see from both organizational and custom and so even the Prime Minister carries about 20 of these with him wherever he goes and he loves to hand them out so and some of the ministers are in Japan at the moment and they are doing the same thing cut. Jacques_von_Benecke: being during this sort of stuff and handing it out and I think it's because we spent. Jacques_von_Benecke: Some amount of time. Jacques_von_Benecke: With them talking about it that they're willing to do it. <phil_t3> Interested in further comments on their backup and recovery service... Jacques_von_Benecke: So what can be done to simplify implementation and these these topics might be a little bit controversial so the first one is open source I do understand and it's a project we do understand that people want to make money out of this but we feel that yes although we everybody has to make money out of it it shouldn't be something that becomes so expensive that you know it's just the apples and. Jacques_von_Benecke: the Googles and stuff. Jacques_von_Benecke: Field because then we're going to miss the boat completely because there will be so many people that are left out that can't afford an Apple phone or a big Android phone and stuff like that and so putting as much of this stuff in open source as we can so it becomes available to people we feel is really important standard welcome to w3c we love standards and we try and use as many of the standards as we can. Jacques_von_Benecke: Very hard for us as technologists to understand which one's work best together so Kelly has on the call and we've asked Leah and Kelly has organization to help us with that to just make some more sense out of all of the standards because it's not the greatest thing in the world for us to understand all those things so could we have you know somewhere something that says hey if you put these five together they were great but if you add this one in then maybe that one doesn't work too well with it. Jacques_von_Benecke: so you know. Jacques_von_Benecke: Bandits landscape a bit simpler then regulations and laws and every country has regulations about their their data and most of those regulations specifically talk about sensitive information or identifiable information which is the core of our identity and SSI platform so you know we are sharing our act and we are going to share our governance framework as widely as we can so that people can adopt and reuse and cut and paste as much as. Jacques_von_Benecke: as they like because we feel that you know people should learn from. Jacques_von_Benecke: Having gone through that that path the next one is education there's not really enough information about how do I train or create a great SSI based technologist what do they need to know what are the Technologies they need to understand how do they need to make decisions about what is the right framework for the right application at the right time how do we get them to understand that these things will probably change every year and we. Jacques_von_Benecke: probably going to rewrite. Jacques_von_Benecke: Quite a bit. Jacques_von_Benecke: What we have every year and because technologist you know every bit of code we write we tend to make our baby so we want to hold on to it too much and then back to Communications I think forums like this tonight is fantastic I think we should you know let people who have these projects and work on these projects share and share you know these are scars this is what we battled with for us the technology was never the hard thing for us the communications was the regulation was. Jacques_von_Benecke: so understanding. Jacques_von_Benecke: To adopt first how to get from having nothing in place to having something that we can iterate on in place and making sure that we talked about that we talked to people I mean we've probably talked to ears of people like Drummond and Andy from passed around you know because they work with other people in the world so what do they do we've talked to a lot of people like Daryl and Carol O'Connell and people like that who have their own platforms and it's important we because we feel that everybody should have an identity and. Jacques_von_Benecke: it shouldn't be something that is prohibited due to cost we think it's really important that. Jacques_von_Benecke: Talk to these things so that's me and thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to talk and show you things please ask me questions or anything. Harrison_Tang: Cool their whereabouts to to find three to five minutes before Jack Cassidy jump so please do cubed plus if you have any questions so 10 I think your first in the queue. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Yeah I think so I'll ask both of my questions and once because we have limited time first one is how is this self-solving identity as opposed to Bhutan velvet matte identity since you verify everything with with 10 Biometrics and I'm not figure printed in but pretends record so I don't think I can get this and it doesn't seem that anybody in Bhutan can get it without already being fingerprinted so that's that's been. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): one thing too is a question of. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): User personas not about fraud per se but imagine that I'm a member of two clubs and I don't want either one to know that I'm a member of the other so I want to have essentially two identities how does the system handle that that's it. Jacques_von_Benecke: Sure so on the first one we deliberately built it in such a way that everybody that comes in Baton will have a national digital identity so I have one we instead of going to DC Arc we go to DIY Department of Immigration and you can remotely you can remotely actually when you apply for a Visa to come to Baton you basically take a picture of the picture part of your passport and we read the QR code or the mrz. Jacques_von_Benecke: oh that's at the bottom and we take the picture of that. Jacques_von_Benecke: Then we do. Jacques_von_Benecke: Lockness testing and stuff like that and then once you're in the country you can go through a more formal process where they will verify your details but you can actually get a national digital identity remotely in that sense but you would have to use a government-approved current photo identity like either a recognized driver's license or a passport preferably a passport but yeah. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Right so again that's that's not self Sovereign that's Bhutan or whatever other government Sovereign that I don't see the stealth sovereignty here. <drummond_reed> It's a sovereign issuing a credential to an SSI wallet. Jacques_von_Benecke: Yes so we deliberately after we issued the foundational identity there is a separation so the government doesn't understand what my identity is post that point so they not they the agent which issues the foundational identities using that data to verify that I am who I say I am based on the government data and then issues that identity so that it can be trusted across borders but from that point on even the company that's going to run this is called. Jacques_von_Benecke: the national digital. <brent> self sovereign means that once the credentials are issued, they can be used independently without the government being involved or knowing about it. This system allows for that. <kaliya_identitywoman> Some how there is a miss-match between a collection of assertions from entities that exist in the world and do so now. Something different then people just creating persona's out of no-where with almost no anchor into anything. <kaliya_identitywoman> Bhutan's system doesn't phone home Jacques_von_Benecke: Bunny it's set up and there are Provisions in the ACT is separated from the government and make sure that there is no linkage is back to the government so from that point on it does become self Sovereign and your wallet is always off Sovereign because there's no link back to the government but we deliberately wanted it to start with something that can be trusted so that's why it's it's issued so it's not 100% pure SSI but it's as close as what our neighbors would allow us and trust us with. <drummond_reed> Correct. Jacques_von_Benecke: does that make sense. <kaliya_identitywoman> pure SSI doesn't do much for real businesses or real governments. <kaliya_identitywoman> It is TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): I mean it makes some sense but it is not as SI at all because the base point the primary identity is government based and Bam it's gone. <drummond_reed> I disagree, Tall Ted Jacques_von_Benecke: The problem is trust right so your second your second question is. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Sure it's a do you trust me to be myself own Sovereign apparently not I mean that's fine just brand it properly. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): It's not SSI and and I'll stand by. <drummond_reed> I *strongly* disagree with Tall Ted. Harrison_Tang: Sorry yeah in that in the interest of time we have another question cochlea you mind taking it for Korea. <phil_t3> TT is not going to get off his high horse. Kaliya Young: I I didn't mean to q+ but I did ask a question earlier up in the thread while Jack was talking so us that which is Have you shared your bill act with the uncitral folks working on sort of model legislation at the UN will about digital identity. Jacques_von_Benecke: No but we would be happy to. Jacques_von_Benecke: If you could. Kaliya Young: I've had a little they're up to that so and I can make an introduction. <tallted_//_ted_thibodeau_(he/him)_(openlinksw.com)> Correct, I will not dismount from this horse. Accuracy in labeling is important. I daresay, vital. Harrison_Tang: Right jock I think you gotta go but we can have Ted or Drummond actually close the discussion but I think you have a 10:00 right so but I just want to say thank you thank you Jack for taking the time to actually present here and share your experiences with us so thank you. Jacques_von_Benecke: My pleasure and thank you so much I'm and if anybody have questions you're more than welcome to send them to me on email or something. Harrison_Tang: Okay and then I will ping you about sharing the deck of the link to the decorator all right thank you thanks John all right Ted you have the floor uh-huh. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Well I mean I'm not going to get an answer to my second question which was the multiple identities. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): And as for people reacting to my high horse you're right I am very tall and I will stay on the horse and be even taller because accuracy and label each is important and if we're going to talk about self Sovereign identity then we should be talking about self Sovereign identity. Harrison_Tang: Thank you thank you. Kaliya Young: Do you want well well never got adoption tired nope. <phil_t3> That was said with affection Ted - I like horses, too. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): I'm not arguing that I'm not arguing that at all you know but adoption is a different question and something that's brand that has so many of you people on this call are purists 99% of the time and now suddenly no it's okay this thing is branding is self Sovereign within our presentation. <rgrant> lol, see you shouters later. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Is going to continue to be called self Sovereign it's not. Kaliya Young: Not a phone home art fair Ted. Harrison_Tang: Thank you thank you Ted so actually we only have two minutes so I would love to have drum and actually take the 4 and then kind of clothes the clothes to look for us coming. Drummond Reed: Yeah I just wanted to clarify that at least Ted in the book that I was a co-author along with 54 other people on the topic we do not Define self Sovereign identity as something where you are the sole issuer of all the credentials you can get a credential and a self Sovereign identity wallet from any issuer and share it with any verifier that. Drummond Reed: That is the definition we're using. <tallted_//_ted_thibodeau_(he/him)_(openlinksw.com)> Not saying it's phone-home. Saying that the base "sovereign" is Bhutan govt, not the person. Drummond Reed: Yourself Sovereign over your wallet and the credentials in your wallet but if we insisted that the individual was the only root of trust as Kalia said I don't think we get anywhere and so that's that's not the definition any of the rest of us have been using and again I'll refer you to the book and many other places that you might find that I'm happy to answer any of the questions I'm you know Jacques it's a really amazing Story the ndi act by the way I saw a question. Drummond Reed: Russians about when's it actually going to be published as I understand it it is. Drummond Reed: Right now and I believe this session ends around the end of the month and I'm pretty sure it will be finalized and therefore publicly published after that. <phil_t3> Well done Drummond! Harrison_Tang: Thank you Jonathan thank you so yeah great discussions and all that stuff actually drama Nigel also want to thank you as well for taking the time to be here and then make these clarifications I know you're already a kind of a celebrity and well-known figure in the community I didn't know you're actually also celebrity baton with us it's your books I didn't know. <tallted_//_ted_thibodeau_(he/him)_(openlinksw.com)> This just moves authority from current certificate authorities to Bhutan gov. Drummond Reed: Well I hope to get to go sometime and I hope they have the impact that were you know Jacques all hats off to Jacques and his team and and the foresight they had to build this there so I hope it I hope it spreads and thanks for doing this I you know ccg and your work has been a lot of what's contributed to you know making SSI. Drummond Reed: It's like this so let's keep going. Harrison_Tang: So thank you thank you Jonathan all right so this conch all right this concludes this week's ctg meeting will publish the meeting minutes in a day or two and then do you have any questions or further questions feel free to leverage the email list all right thank you have a good one bye.
Received on Wednesday, 3 May 2023 04:27:55 UTC