- From: CCG Minutes Bot <minutes@w3c-ccg.org>
- Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 19:51:51 +0000
Thanks to Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week!
The transcript for the call is now available here:
https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2023-03-27-vc-education/
Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio of the meeting is available at the following location:
https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2023-03-27-vc-education/audio.ogg
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VC for Education Task Force Transcript for 2023-03-27
Agenda:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-edu/2023Mar/0006.html
Topics:
1. IP Note
2. Call Notes
3. Introductions & Reintroductions
4. VC Specification Directory
https://w3c.github.io/vc-specs-dir/
Organizer:
Dmitri Zagidulin
Scribe:
Our Robot Overlords
Present:
Dmitri Zagidulin, Phil L (P1), Nis Jespersen , Chris Webber,
Chandi Cumaranatunge, Simone Ravaoli, James Chartrand, Kerri
Lemoie, Stuart Freeman, David Ward, TallTed // Ted Thibodeau
(he/him) (OpenLinkSw.com), Jake, Deb Everhart, David
Baumgartner@smartEduWallet, Jeff O - HumanOS, Kimberly Linson,
Colin Reynolds, Ed Design Lab, Timg, Ryan Grant, Kayode Ezike,
Mahesh Balan - pocketcred.com, Kaliya Young, Etan, Lucy Yang,
Marty Reed, Naomi, Tim Gunther, Jim Goodell
Dmitri Zagidulin: Genda:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-edu/2023Mar/0007.html
<phil_l_(p1)> Audio check?
<phil_l_(p1)> @Dmitri - thank you ;-)
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Topic: IP Note
Dmitri Zagidulin: Quick IP note yeah there we go okay P note
anyone can participate in the calls however substantive
contributions to any CGI item C ccg work item including anything
this task force does you must be a member of the ccg and sign the
IPR agreement.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So please.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Let us know if you under it.
Topic: Call Notes
Dmitri Zagidulin: Minutes will be recorded and then post it on
the archive we use GT chat or IRC to queue up speakers for
questions and so on some blood type Q Plus to be added to the
queue or raise your hand here and just see.
Topic: Introductions & Reintroductions
Dmitri Zagidulin: Eight introductions and reintroduction so is
anyone new here on the call that would like to introduce
themselves.
Dmitri Zagidulin: All right Todd doesn't sound like I have
anybody knew it does anybody want to reintroduce a anybody have a
new position or just haven't spoken in a while.
Dmitri Zagidulin: In this group.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Collin go ahead.
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: Hey morning afternoon evening
everyone I just I wanted to put out there I started working with
education Design Lab a few months ago I was previously working
with morning economy Commendation but one thing that I'd Design
Lab is doing I think is relevant to this group as we do a lot of
work with higher education community colleges some of the talent
pipeline into employment and so we've got a lot of implementation
projects that are happening.
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: year round.
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: Groups using digital wallets and
starting to kind of iron out some of the I guess build some of
the infrastructure to help data flow through all of their systems
both in the higher education side and the employer side and so I
just wanted to put that out there for groups of maybe looking for
opportunities to either learn more about what this implementation
looks like on campuses or with employers or others are doing some
more work I would love to.
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: to have conversations.
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: From you all about things that are
happening in the space and one of the other projects that I've
mentioned here previously but as well underway until long since
vault in that as well as a consultant is the experience you
project where we're working with groups and I think Jake
dibattista is actually on this call and he's got a project for
this in this space as well but the experience you is really
taking on structured learning and employment data structuring it
into specific data models to sort of prep for.
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: for implementation all across the
ecosystem so I think that is yeah.
<jake> Thanks for the shout out!
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: Definitely connect because there's
a lot of great stuff happening more on the implementation side
and that's sort of where I exist now is really working with teams
to iron it out and get some recommendations so if you got a
wallet solution or some like Tech solution or something that is
helpful in this space would love to connect and find ways to get
those plugged in because ultimately interoperability is what
we're all working towards and so don't want to leave anybody out
and want to learn from from what you all are doing boots on the
ground.
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: dial so thanks for the chance to
chat.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Absolutely welcome we're glad to have you here
Deb I believe you're up next.
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): Hey everybody I'm thanks Carl
let me piggyback on that a little bit I mean you must be under a
rock if you're not following what's happening with a I right now
and we think that experience you is a really super timely
opportunity to train AI systems on how to make meaning out of
credential and course and skill and competency data and
credential engine were providing.
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): being a suite of resources.
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): It lets anyone.
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): Use the CTL schema to train Ai
and and the registry as real life data also for training but
importantly to help get a lot more information available as
structured linked open data using CDL so that directly apropos to
this group that data can be included in verifiable credentials so
that those verifiable credentials have meaning and that.
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): that human beings don't have
to do all the work.
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): So happy to answer any
questions about that.
<kaliya_identitywoman> I don't know what is going on but Jitsi
app on my phone no longer has audio working.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thanks Deb and I definitely like to second
that if you're an implementer in verifiable credential space and
education and you're not familiar with the credential engine
Suite of specifications databases are all of that all of that
stuff definitely take a look please reach out to Debbie if you
have questions and so on.
https://credreg.net/
<david_baumgartner@smarteduwallet> @Colin Thanks for the intro.
We've built a LER verifiable credentials lifelong wallet, and
we've focused on interoperability. Would love to connect:
David.Baumgartner@e-duproof.com
Dmitri Zagidulin: How he is mentioning that jitsi app on the
phone stopped working yes Coley agreed I've experienced the same
thing so if you're on mobile and you can't hear anything but you
won't hear me saying this but you want to use git in the browser
on mobile that that actually works all right announcements and.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah because of community announcements.
<colin_reynolds,_ed_design_lab> Here is the Experience You
dashboard we have been curating for project work. Would love all
to have a look and share resources, links, etc you think helpful
for AI teams structuring LERs at scale:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14A8OONYGHq-Exsiqama6mC_NopBr1WJzUCLej67Dmx4/edit
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah go ahead.
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> we're putting together a
1-pager on how to use these existing resources for AI
applications and plugins
Dmitri Zagidulin: https://diceurope.org/
Kaliya Young: Yeah for folks who are based in Europe or those
who want to come to Europe we have the digital identity
unconference Europe or dice coming up June 7 to 9 so this is a
real opportunity for anybody who is sort of on the ground in the
real world building who wants to connect with other implementers
to do so.
Kaliya Young: Of the days there's a sort of half day orientation
one too many talks but the the second two days are unconference
format the same way we do at iiw using open space technology so
I'm hoping that folks who are on list in Europe can spread the
word because we really need to get the word out now so we get
enough people there in June I'll put the URL.
Kaliya Young: http://www.diceurope.org
Kerri Lemoie: I can hear you.
Simone Ravaoli:
https://ec.europa.eu/digital-building-blocks/wikis/display/EBSI/EBSI+Experience+Center
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thank you so much and I apologize for the
silence I was speaking but of course I muted myself thank you for
the link in chat and I'm wondering if it would be possible to
organize something in conjunction with the conference clear
mentioned dice Europe which I'm personally looking forward to
certainly I cleared the did you have did you want to say anything
else.
<simone_ravaioli> Great idea Dmitry !
Kaliya Young: I'm not well I'm on clear if I got cut off or not
but.
Dmitri Zagidulin: No no you oh just say it say it anyways yeah.
Kaliya Young: No I don't have more to say I just really hope
that a variety of communities working on these you know can use
the event in the way that folks Uzziah W is to get real work done
and there's a ball forward and they don't need to organize their
own separate events that can just use our event you know.
Dmitri Zagidulin: That and that's a very good point and it
sounds like Simona is interested in in coordinating something
with regards to the ab c-- announcement that he mentioned and
yeah I'm personally definitely looking forward to the dice
unconference thank you for organizing it.
Topic: VC Specification Directory https://w3c.github.io/vc-specs-dir/
Dmitri Zagidulin: All right that case I'll let's move on to our
main event and at any point please feel free to put yourself on
the Q&A questions welcome so we wanted to talk today a little bit
about a fairly recent development from the verifiable credential
working group group that is currently working on the VC 2.0 data
model.
Dmitri Zagidulin: One of the one of the mechanisms that.
Dmitri Zagidulin: The working group has identified is this
notion of a VC specification directory so it's so what is it is a
Respec formatted specification which just serves as a directory
of pointers to other relevant specs the whole thing is on GitHub
which means you can.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Open issues.
Dmitri Zagidulin: To ask questions you can make pull requests to
propose adding your own VC related specification to do that
directory so what do we mean by it's an extension Point mechanism
and how does it interplay with linked data so.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Because the core of verifiable credentials are
uses json-ld contacts and linked data as an implementer you're
free to add.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Their contexts any other properties to the VC
data model as long as they don't conflict with the existing.
Dmitri Zagidulin: He 2.0 properties defined in the specification
so you can't redefine the credential subject the top-left
critical subject property for example because the compiler the
json-ld processor will give you an error but.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Hi that whatever you're working on.
Dmitri Zagidulin: In in education in other verticals uses a new
field or uses fields in a slightly different manner that other
people basically you're going to need to customize their fiber
credentials especially the contents right so if the v-spec
defines the envelope of the assigned verifiable objects.
Dmitri Zagidulin: What it doesn't Define.
<david_baumgartner@smarteduwallet> @Simone Our platform
smartEduWallet is based in Europe and would like to connect re
the EC Digital Building Blocks event you mentioned.
Dmitri Zagidulin: At least up to the community is of course the
contents and we're starting to see some vertical specific
specifications such as the open badges version 3 and the CLR 2.0
specification so they both use the outer envelope of air five
credentials but constrain and specify the contents of the of what
gets put inside the envelope.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Can you create something like an extension to
VC can you create something like open badges without
participating in this directory yes absolutely so by itself as is
the verifiable credentials data model is meant to be extensible.
Dmitri Zagidulin: What this directory does is it's aiming to be
a Central Community Resource that points to.
Dmitri Zagidulin: It's extensions and specifications I used by
education Community is the and pretty much anybody else
participating in ccg credentials working group and Beyond.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So what are what are some of the things that
are in there I'll pull up the I'll pull up the directory in just
a second but I want to say that.
Dmitri Zagidulin: The moment it contains several things
specifications for various signature methods such as linked data
integrity and I imagine in the future it will point to the Json
web token serialization of our fabric credentials and so on.
Dmitri Zagidulin: It lists specifications for existing
properties such as okay so the base back defines credential
status property but only defines only reserves it but doesn't say
what you're actually going to do with it so in order to find
examples of credential status you would go to this directory and
and look at the specs listed there we'll take a look in just a
second and and thirdly.
Dmitri Zagidulin: The directory has.
Dmitri Zagidulin: New verifiable credential data model
properties of the new top level properties of up which Give an
example in a second so let's let's take a look at some of these
and and then we'll take questions and then we'll have we can have
a discussion of and general extension mechanisms and what some of
these imply so let's let's open up the rendered directory.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Okay one second.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Let me share the right screen.
Dmitri Zagidulin: https://w3c.github.io/vc-specs-dir/
Dmitri Zagidulin: And this is the this is this thing that I'll
be looking at.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Alright so here's here's an example or rather
sorry here's what the directory looks like this moment in time so
has an introduction has instructions on how to add to it but
here's what we got in it so the section 2.1 credential status.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Spell specifications for an existing property
just credential status so for example status list 2021 which is
what most implementers are using and also one edx revocation
status list method and so you can see that in addition to the
spec it lists the maintainers email and website so you can get
into contact with them so you can send questions and.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Bugs pull requests.
Dmitri Zagidulin: That sort of thing similarly credential schema
is an existing core property in the in the specifications so
here's here's a few.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Scheme of specs in use the community one
created by the working group one donated by one edtech and a
newer one also by view their fiber credentials working group done
in open API which is a superset of Json schema.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Here's a example link to evidence existing
field and here's the Ed 255 19.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Specification for for signing so this is where
all the different proof methods we are going to go so different
key types different civilizations such as linked data versus Json
web token and so on.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Here's an.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Five refresh service spec terms of use and
some vertical specific verifiable credential types such as as
mentioned open badges CLR version 2 and of course the Exon work
that the traceability task force of this ECG has been doing.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So let's pause here and see if we have any
questions about the.
Dmitri Zagidulin: The director and the general-purpose
mechanism.
Dmitri Zagidulin: All right so let's take a look at some of the
let's look at a sneak preview of some of the.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Some of the proposals for new.
Dmitri Zagidulin: There are mechanisms and top-level properties
that are coming to the Bible credential specifications directory
near you so one moment while stop sharing.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So one of the things that members of this
community are working on that might be of interest to you
specifically is for example I think we mentioned in an earlier
vco2 call work being done on this notion of a very Fab credential
rendering hint so a lot of us wallet issue and verifier
implementers you on this call half.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Struggled with the problem of.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Okay so Ivory as a wallet user I received a
new credential how is the wall going to know how to render it how
to display it so of course we have the sort of innovation
mechanism where each wallet essentially competes on how well they
can display the credential and and that's an important aspect of
it but we also from talking with with issuers and with other
implementers we saw a very strong need for.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Issuers being able to.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Press preferences that hey Downstream when
rendering this credential here's some possible templates or
images or other mechanisms that you can use there's also demand
for rendering credentials in different modalities so visually but
also what about voice what about accessibility mechanisms like
Braille right we asked verifiable credentials become more
prevalent the world we need to consider all of that stuff.
Dmitri Zagidulin: This is going.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Rocketing with a verifiable credentials in
many different environments many different modalities some of
them will be resource-constrained some of them will be you know
regular desktops and so you can render credentials very
elaborately but so the rendering hands provides mechanisms for
consistent display and and other modes of presentation.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So several of us worked on a paper and much
like everything else with a verifiable credential the render hint
is going to be a flexible point of extension so you'd be able to
make proposals form for rendering mechanisms that will go into
that property and so and the proposals range from something as
simple as here is a pre-rendered credential as a PNG image.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So that's that's a mechanism for example I
used by previous.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Open open badges specification and they can be
the image can be linked or embedded into the credential and of
course we can we can talk about the various security trade-offs
between linking and embedding security and usability trade-offs
really.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So that's that's one end of the simple
Spectrum on the more complex side of the spectrum of rendering
you would be able to link to a for example HTML or SVG.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Opponent that the wallet can use.
Dmitri Zagidulin: To render though the credential and of course
both with HTML and SVG and other rendering Technologies there's
gonna be much discussion for how to render it safely how to
prevent any sort of code injection attacks and all of those other
things that you take into consideration so rendering hint is
going to be a general purpose mechanisms that is also able to use
existing a rendering.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Nations that are in progress such as diffs.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Asian exchange display specification the open
badges style image and and several others so.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Specification proposing the render property.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Is an example of something that's going to be
added to the VC specifications directory.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So that'll be a short Standalone spec hey
there is this property that you might want to use and then
separately they could be links to the specific specifications of
the rendering property.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Similarly I think we've earlier on ABC edu
call Phil Long myself and gold fellas did a presentation of this
notion of cryptographically composing distinct Standalone
credentials in a verifiable way you and also introducing this
general-purpose digest hash from mechanisms that can be used for
various things and verifiable credentials.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So that's that's another example of the spec.
Dmitri Zagidulin: And then of course for those of you who may
not have seen the recent presentation in the ccg call I think it
was last week or the week before that by Manos Forney and others
a large number of stakeholders have come together from from train
from too many too many communities for from the trust over IP
foundation and several other projects.
Dmitri Zagidulin: I have come.
Kaliya Young: https://github.com/undp
Dmitri Zagidulin: Rate on this notion of trust Registries and
what do we mean by trust registry as well to start with they're
collaborating on a way to specify the ability for a verifier to
constrain verification to a list of known and trusted agents so
that sounds abstract what does it mean for example for us.
Kaliya Young: https://github.com/undp/Regi-TRUST
Dmitri Zagidulin: The ability for self issued credentials is
very important one in education but also in addition it's
extremely important for us to be able to say when going to verify
this diploma this particular verifier will want to.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Saint for example nationally accredited.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Higher education institutions or this verifier
is going to be dealing with only accredited high schools in the
European Union so this notion of being able to.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Bubbly and in a community centered fashion
Define lists of trusted verifiers an issuer's that's what the
spec is about and it's being incubated in the ccg under the
verifiable issuers and verify your specification and again that
is that's another one Speck that will be most likely added to the
VC specs directory.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Pause here see if people have any questions.
Dmitri Zagidulin: I see Mona go ahead.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Absolutely so at minimum you should open an
issue on the VC specifications directory saying hey here's this
extension I would really like it so that's the minimum the
recommended path that other piece I personally I think the other
co-chairs of this group would share is bring it up on a community
call first and then open an issue so bring it up here.
Dmitri Zagidulin: On one of these calls bring it up on the.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Credentials community group call.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Or the if you're a member of the VC working
group mention it there that way.
Dmitri Zagidulin: That can be some preliminary Community
discussions of whether this is a good idea or no this is this is
going to lead to the following security problems and then after
that a discussion of patient we amend the core BC data model to
include this property and spoiler given that the.
Dmitri Zagidulin: EC data model working group is aiming.
Dmitri Zagidulin: For a essentially a feature freeze and the
next couple of weeks it's unlikely that the group is going to.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Agree to expanding the core data model and so
in fact the the render hint and the digest hash link mechanism
were both proposed to the VC data model working group as
extensions to the core spec and and the group pushed back and
said no we don't have time before the code freeze and and in any
case here is this general purpose extension mechanism which is
how the specification is intended.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Station directory is intended.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So instead of.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Expanding the core data model spec we're going
to Define general purpose extension points and you would do it
there so hopefully that answers your question go ahead Simoni.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yes that would be up perfect candidate so
definitely open an issue on the Visa directory saying hey let's
add the European credential type and then if you familiar with
GitHub and with HTML editing please make a direct pull request
and add a link in the type section if not reach out to one of us
here in the community.
Dmitri Zagidulin: You and I will be able to help you make that.
Simone Ravaoli:
https://github.com/european-commission-empl/European-Learning-Model/blob/ELM-v3/rdf/samples/credential-sample.jsonld
Dmitri Zagidulin: Is he out perfect thanks for the data model
Link in the chat.
<kayode_ezike> If I understand correctly, each extension point
proposal would introduce a new context, correct?
Dmitri Zagidulin: Anybody else any other questions about the
directory and extending.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So coyote in chat is asking does each
extension Point introduced a new context and generally yes so.
Dmitri Zagidulin: If you're adding a new property of the DC data
model.
Dmitri Zagidulin: You would need to define context for it if
you're expanding upon an existing property such as credential
status evidence terms of use and you're also going to need to be
defining those new types and those sub properties somewhere and
one of the things that you're going to do is publish a context
now as a VC Community we're working on tools to make publishing
create a new context to be push-button.
Dmitri Zagidulin: In fact there are such tools already but we're
working on improving them but for the moment if you're an
implementer in the space and you'd like to create a extension
point a proposal and you're unsure on how to create a context
please reach out to one of the chairs here in this in this group
and we'll walk you through how to create a context hosted and so
on now can you.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Can you add.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Or expand upon an existing property without
creating context yes these days yes because one of the things
that the VC working group added to the 2.0 core VC context is
this vocabulary mechanism and what it means is that now.
Dmitri Zagidulin: If you add new properties anywhere in the
credential and you don't provide a specific context for them they
will all go into this catch-all vocab bucket they will all be
expanded into this core VC data model new undefined term bucket
so.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Can we do.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Have to add new fields to the context know you
can rely on the vocab catch-all however it is strongly
recommended that you add a new context to finding a new fields.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Does that does that answer your question
coyote.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Excellent anyone else.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Questions about tension points rendering
posing credentials trust registries.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Oh why don't one other important sort of topic
that is an extension point that is currently a hot issue of
discussion in the VC working group and that is this notion of
mapping from the core if I'm going to choose link data model to
other civilizations.
Dmitri Zagidulin: C bar that there are there are multiple VCC
realizations in a compressed binary format based on c bar which
is like Json but in binary so we have C Boreal D and we have some
of the new proposals such as Christopher Allen's gordian
credentials such as Sam Smith's AC/DC credentials right so the
group is come up with this notion.
Dmitri Zagidulin: If you want to.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Over the wire or on disc format for verifiable
credentials to be saved without losing information right so we
want to have we want to have both we want to have loss of
translation between see realizations but we want to be able to
innovate we want to be able to propose new compression methods
new.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Isis over the wire methods so the working
group is currently discussing this notion of defining a one-way
or two-way mapping from the core.
Dmitri Zagidulin: DC link data model to alternative radio
stations.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So that's definitely something to keep an eye
on as the discussion progresses and as new specification format
sorry as new serialization formats get proposed will cover them
on a separate VC edu call because might be of interest.
Dmitri Zagidulin: To to this community.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Let's see any other questions.
Dmitri Zagidulin: All right so we will we will talk to you all
on the next call.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Wish everyone happy reading of the many
specifications in this directory.
<phil_l_(p1)> Great night time reading for sure!
Dmitri Zagidulin: Please open issues pull requests and reach out
to members of this community or the co-chairs with any questions
that you have.
Dmitri Zagidulin: As felt points out in Chad definitely great
nighttime reading.
<david_baumgartner@smarteduwallet> Thanks Dmitri!
<colin_reynolds,_ed_design_lab> Thank you!
<kerri_lemoie> Thanks!
<phil_l_(p1)> Thanks Dmitri~
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thanks all cheers have a great day.
Received on Monday, 27 March 2023 19:51:51 UTC