[MINUTES] W3C CCG CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force Call - 2023-03-06

Thanks to Our Robot Overlords and Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week!

The transcript for the call is now available here:


Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio of the meeting is available at the following location:


VC for Education Task Force Transcript for 2023-03-06

  1. IP Note
  2. Call Notes
  3. Introductions & Reintroductions
  4. Announcements & Reminders
  5. 1EdTech Digital Summit
  6. RANDA - Marty Reed
  Kerri Lemoie
  Our Robot Overlords and Our Robot Overlords
  Kerri Lemoie, Jeff O - HumanOS, Eric Shepherd, Ian Davidson, Andy 
  Griebel, Nis Jespersen , Clare Nelson, TallTed // Ted Thibodeau 
  (he/him) (OpenLinkSw.com), David Mason, Dmitri Zagidulin, Stuart 
  Freeman, Marty Reed, Greg Bernstein, xander - ASU/Pocket, TimG, 
  John Kuo, PL/T3 ASU, Joey Salazar, David Ward, Deb Everhart, 
  Kimberly Linson, Naomi, Marianna Milkis, ASU Pocket, Chandi 
  Cumaranatunge, Sharon Leu, Phil Barker, Chris Webber, Susan 
  Stroud, James Chartrand, Jim Kelly, David Baumgartner 
  @smartEduWallet, Sheryl

<kerri_lemoie> Hello all -  we'll get started in a few mins
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Kerri Lemoie:  Think we are recording.
Kerri Lemoie:  We'll get started here. hi everybody Welcome to 
  the Monday March sixth version of the addition of the verifiable 
  credentials for Education task force call today's topic is we 
  have random we've already read for men decisions here to present 
  their latest work and also we'll talk about we'll get start a 
  little bit touch upon what's happening at what happened at one 
Kerri Lemoie:   Pick one a tech digital Summit last.

Topic: IP Note

Kerri Lemoie:  If I if anybody has anything to share about that 
  so I let me go over a few few items before we get started so the 
  first one is our our our IP notes use me anyone can participate 
  in these calls this is a community called but if you are intended 
  to work on any of the standards work in this community you should 
  join and during the.
Kerri Lemoie:   Immunity and.
Kerri Lemoie:  The IPR agreement set.
Kerri Lemoie:  I'm going to hit recording again see.
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Kerri Lemoie:  It's preparing to record before it was saying all 
  the recorders were busy.
Kerri Lemoie:  Okay I think we're back now I'll just say it again 
  that this is the verifiable credentials for Education task force 
  call on Monday March 6th we just mentioned the IP note and that's 
  that this is an open Community call and if you intend to do any 
  more work and make their contributions to our standards then you 
  should join the CCC ccg Group and I'm inside the IPR agreements 
  this call is recorded and so.

Topic: Call Notes

Kerri Lemoie:   In this call is archived we do use the chat.
Kerri Lemoie:  She speakers during our call and you can add 
  yourself to the queue by typing q+ or you can click the hand in 
  the lower part of jitsi and then we'll add you to the Q and the 
  chat or you could hit Q minus or lower your hand using the 
  interface and just see if you want to pull yourself out of the 

Topic: Introductions & Reintroductions

Kerri Lemoie:  Let's start with some introductions is there 
  anybody here who's new to the call or who's been attending and 
  would like to say hello and tell us what they're working on.
Kerri Lemoie:  Hey Mariana welcome.
Marianna_Milkis,_ASU_Pocket: Hi I'm new I see a couple of 
  familiar names I'm with the Arizona State University and I work 
  on is your pocket with John quo.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thanks for joining us.
David Mason:  Hi just introducing myself Justin Mason been 
  involved in open badges open recognition for a while and just 
  been meaning to come here for a long time so hello.
Kerri Lemoie:  Tristan great to see you here.
Kerri Lemoie:  Justin if you don't mind I'm going to put you on 
  the spot will you tell the folks a little bit about the open 
  recognition group and I you've been working on.
David Mason:  Yeah happy too so the open recognition we have an 
  open recognition work group as part of the open skills Network 
  and we meet every two weeks and talk about how the skills 
  infrastructure that OS n is helping to build how we can make that 
  more open and more inclusive and more Equitable and we've got 
  several projects that are always in the works and everyone and 
  every folks are welcome to join very welcome.
David Mason:   So yeah.
David Mason:  Share a link if I can figure out this is my first 
  time in jitsi 2 so I can share a link if I can figure out how.
Kerri Lemoie:  Yes please do get you can put it straight in the 
  chat that would be great thank you great to see you here Ian you 
  are next thank you.
Ian_Davidson: Hey everybody Ian Davidson from Smart resume 
  jodieandandy greeble who's often on these calls I haven't been on 
  this particular call and well over a year so that can back in and 
  just wanted to say hi.
Kerri Lemoie:  Great thanks nice to see you here.
<tallted_//_ted_thibodeau_(he/him)_(openlinksw.com)> (calendar 
  says "open agenda" but it seems to be otherwise ... also, notes 
  about "Join with Google Meet: 
  https://meet.google.com/qxe-vqop-uvz" seem odd as we're in 

Topic: Announcements & Reminders

Kerri Lemoie:  Hey I don't see anybody else in the queue our next 
  topic is to do any sort of announcements and reminders I don't 
  have anything to add here although I know that we will be making 
  announcements about plugfest 3 soon so stay tuned for that so 
  that is all that I have is anybody else have any announcement 
  that's that they didn't like to make this morning or today.
Kerri Lemoie:  I know there's a lot going on and a lot of 
  conferences that are going to start happening soon so I'm sure 
  we'll have those updates in the near future.
<justin_mason> Open Skills Workgroups / Open Recognition: 

Topic: 1EdTech Digital Summit

Kerri Lemoie:  Do I say what we wanted to talk a little bit about 
  was was the one that Tech conference I we just wanted to start 
  there and then that will lead I'm sure right into the render 
  presentation so I was wondering if you attended the one at Tech 
  digital Summit if you could hop on the Queue and tell us a little 
  bit about it.
Kerri Lemoie:  I know many people on this call often are at the 
  summit I wasn't able to attend so I would love to hear more about 
  it I'm sure others work too.
Marianna_Milkis,_ASU_Pocket: Sorry I missed the part about how to 
  hop on the Queue but I did attend.
Kerri Lemoie:  You did you can raise your hand and in the lower 
  the or you can add q+ like this in the chat but great yeah tell 
  us all about it how was it.
Marianna_Milkis,_ASU_Pocket: It was good so it was my first time 
  to attend this conference I'm relatively new to the space into 
  the team I've only been working on pocket and in digital 
  credentialing space since September of last year the conference 
  was great I thought there was clearly a mean obviously the 
  organizers talked a lot about the ob3 and still are two formats 
  they presented the updates which to me.
Marianna_Milkis,_ASU_Pocket:  me sounded like they are moving in.
Marianna_Milkis,_ASU_Pocket: In a solid Direction and that was a 
  whole lot of conversation I basically felt like there were two 
  parts to the conference one was around the whole pipeline from 
  micro-credentialing and transitioning into employment so whether 
  it's micro credentials in general but whether it's verified 
  credentials or skills based hiring into employers my main out 
  take has been that the only.
Marianna_Milkis,_ASU_Pocket:  any instance where.
Marianna_Milkis,_ASU_Pocket: Kinds or digital credential and 
  currently Works successfully and to and leading to employment is 
  if employers co-create or create the programs that are then being 
  credentialed I think that that conversation is kind of a 
  standalone conversation that so basically may or may not be 
  facilitated by digital credentials in in the space out we all are 
  yeah so those are kind of my main outtakes.
Marianna_Milkis,_ASU_Pocket:  it's though I saw a lot of.
Marianna_Milkis,_ASU_Pocket: Doing the work and had conversations 
  with many colleges who are starting to transition into some sort 
  of credentialing it currently doesn't go too far past the badging 
  of Milestones within the course or some extracurricular 
  co-curricular activities and then the interesting session was 
  with apparently Arco the Board of Regents governing body 
  Association has issued a guidance to you CL are too.
Marianna_Milkis,_ASU_Pocket:  to as the.
Marianna_Milkis,_ASU_Pocket: Or migrating transcript into digital 
  form and Tennessee Board of Regents has done made a big progress 
  with they actually did make a move all their transcripts to CLR 
  and then Arkansas also is moving in that direction.
Marianna_Milkis,_ASU_Pocket: This kind of broad Strokes I guess.
Kerri Lemoie:  Hmm now this desert has some great things to know 
  thank you very much for an appreciate that.
Kerri Lemoie:  You have the floor.
Kerri Lemoie:  Susan if you are speaking or not unmuted right 
Kerri Lemoie:  Okay Susan we can come back to you if he's like.
<susan_stroud> Mute issues
Kerri Lemoie:  Hey anybody else was that when a tech would like 
  to share their thoughts a David.
Dave_McCool_(Muzzy_Lane): Hi I definitely agree with all the 
  things Mariana said I thought it was a good conference we've gone 
  the last few years and significant growth I think in the space 
  and especially University of participation I think was sort of 
  for me bookended by a minus and a plus Sean Gallagher from 
  Northeastern presented their latest research on basically is HR 
  Tech ready for micro credentials and a pretty detailed no came 
  out of that presentation a lot of structural and Technology 
  barriers to.
Dave_McCool_(Muzzy_Lane):  journal micro credentials.
Dave_McCool_(Muzzy_Lane): Created by companies making it all the 
  way through to the hiring managers and hiring process so 
  highlight a lot of challenges there but on the flipside edl Ed 
  elects University of Dayton and University of Melbourne presented 
  some research they did on sort of the student side and how how 
  Learners feel about my credentials and they show that 76% of 
  Learners feel more confident expressing their skills when they 
  get these micro credentials so even if it's not a formal part of 
  the hiring process they feel like they get sort of a career boost 
  out of just getting the my credential itself.
Dave_McCool_(Muzzy_Lane):  so that was a promising sign.
Kerri Lemoie:  It is a promising sign by any chance do you have a 
  link to that research.
Dave_McCool_(Muzzy_Lane): Pop it into the chat.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you I'll check that out.
Kerri Lemoie:  Susan how are you how are you mute issues going oh 
  there you are yeah that's better thank you.
Susan_Stroud: We'll see are they better okay great I think I must 
  have said no somewhere along the line yeah so this is my first 
  experience in the like kind of Ed Tech space moving over from 
  Healthcare and so I found the conference to be a really nice mix 
  of audiences so there was a great deal of Technical and even 
  highly technical conversations there was a lot of Standards 
  conversations a lot of product roadmaps a lot of how the 
  different products.
Susan_Stroud:  it's kind of come together think in order to 
  create an.
Kerri Lemoie:  It sounds great thank you.
Susan_Stroud: Sean that I found to be very valuable and then just 
  The Passion of the people to really love all the different groups 
  to try to work together to see what they can do from kind of 
  their angle in order to advance the The Narrative and the 
  capabilities that are being brought to bear especially as we get 
  to the point where we can actually mix them in an end-to-end 
  experience and actually create a full experience so it's really 
  exciting and a lot of really great opportunity to network and 
  meet people in these sessions as well sir.
Susan_Stroud:  I really enjoyed it.
<dave_mccool_(muzzy_lane)> Edalex/EDL research on learners 
Kerri Lemoie:  I am I'm fascinated to learn what will happen 
  between this year and next year now that open badges V3 is out in 
  CL R V2 is out and implementations are starting and we're going 
  to start seeing some end-to-end implementations because we've 
  already had the plugfest to demonstrate how that works I'm 
  curious to see how next year we'll go it's interesting to hear 
  about the panels that reflect the work that's going on.
Susan_Stroud: And Carrie if I can just you know add one more 
  thing one of the I went to eat Denver or E th Denver right after 
  that and it was really interesting to see as like a selling point 
  some of the newer blockchain companies advertising as new 
  features and new feature releases that they were incorporating 
  verify credentials and so that kind of cross industry I guess 
  excitement you know coming from like highly folks involved in 
  like blockchain identity to.
Susan_Stroud:  Keen eyes and the need to you know.
Susan_Stroud: Standards and incorporate some of the content 
  that's coming through these types of working groups was really 
  exciting to see that as a selling point is something that they 
  wanted to announce.
Kerri Lemoie:  You mean that they're using verifiable credentials 
  like the standard verifiable credential.
Susan_Stroud: Cracked and have incorporated into like the latest 
  version of Angus polygon it's doing like cross chain identity 
  management and just get them up there actually there's three or 
  four sessions that I went to really pushing verify credentials on 
  blockchain so it was really nice to see that continuity of what 
  work a lot of the folks on this call are doing either to drive or 
  to advance and then seeing that cross into the Block Chain space 
  as like selling points.
Kerri Lemoie:  Yeah absolutely thank you for sharing about that's 
  that's great news thank you Susan.
Kerri Lemoie:  Naomi I think I thought I saw you pop up in the 
  Hue here.
Naomi: Are there yes I did pop up for just a second and I wanted 
  to follow on some of the initial thoughts raised and also that 
  David raised as well you know my main takeaway from the event is 
  still how much opportunity we have and also work we have to do to 
  connect the pockets of work that have really gotten going where I 
  kind of got the sense that there's a lot of pockets of innovation 
  and really.
Naomi:  be strong.
<pl/t3_asu> It might be useful to ask Colin Reynolds to speak 
  about EthDenver meeting  at some point, as he was one of the 
  organizers of that event.
Naomi: Application of use cases and and follow through end-to-end 
  but that there are few roadways really connecting that work and 
  that goes back to the broad sense of whether employers are ready 
  to receive you know credentials outside of the examples that they 
  themselves are directly involved with and help structure and so 
  you know my big takeaway is for us to really think as a community 
  on how to better Forge the connections.
Naomi:  the main build out the interoperability.
Naomi: And really work together to have not just islands of 
  digital credentials in use but really to empower the individuals 
  to be able to you know travel the world with them.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you ma'am is a great points.
Kerri Lemoie: 
Kerri Lemoie:  I'm going to put a link here to a an article about 
  a report that we did at DCC got released in the summer that is 
  about working with employers that kind of aligns with what I'm 
  hearing you've all heard at at the I wanted to check last week.

Topic: RANDA - Marty Reed

Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you all very much that was very informative 
  and helpful next I'm going to introduce Marty Reed from RANDA 
  Marty I believe you were also aware that Tech so maybe this is a 
  good segue to talk about I may be your experiences and then you 
  could tell us more about the work you're doing it Randa.
Marty Reed:  Sure thanks Gary yeah and as far as the one to take 
  conference I mean I think there's a lot more maturity across 
  across many different parts of the of the ecosystem you know you 
  see more players at the table with more compliant interoperable 
  platforms and willing to work on interoperability whereas I think 
  in the past we haven't we haven't heard a lot of.
Marty Reed:   Really leaning in to.
Marty Reed: 
Marty Reed:  It's partially due to the work done here and they 
  see a Jew work group as well as that aligning with the BC 
  workgroup and and the CLR and open badge or groups so what I'm 
  going to talk about today is kind of a rehash of what I presented 
  at one a tech because thinking through it we have a lot of very 
  talented technical folks on this call and I would.
Marty Reed: 
Marty Reed:  Feel kind of ignorant presenting technical specs to 
  this crowd so instead what I'm going to do is again present what 
  I presented at the one I take conference which is really the why 
  around CL are too kind of some of the transitions between CL R1 
  and R2 and give you some use cases as far as how that how that 
  plays into real-world applications and so for those of you that 
  we're at my talk you can go ahead and take a nap or.
Marty Reed:   Or you know make your something new.
<kerri_lemoie> No napping!  :)
Kerri Lemoie:  Yes you can see it.
<pl/t3_asu> link to slides?
Marty Reed:  So I'm going to talk about why CLR to and hopefully 
  you can see my screen yes so we did an initial implementation of 
  CLR one and and that initial implementation is an open source 
  project housed at ieee-sa open the open credential publisher 
  project that was done in collaboration with with North Dakota and 
  we learned a number of things North.
Marty Reed:   Happy CG and.
Marty Reed:  Actually 17 other collaborative parties that collab 
  and is still going on now so I won't get into that but a few 
  things that we had to had to overcome as a team one is kind of 
  dynamic population of the CLR package so early on in the work and 
  it was discovered that a transcript is not so this was around the 
  K-12 transcript from the Statewide system in North Dakota and 
  what we learned was is that that transcript does not look the 
Marty Reed:   Same for every single student and so you have to 
  kind of create a dynamic.
Marty Reed:  Mission of that of that CL r package so that it can 
  dynamically expand and contract and that presents some 
  limitations and how you implement that further down the road then 
  the next piece was we actually needed to make it a verifiable 
  credentials so this was two years ago roughly that the CLR one 
  was signed as a JWT and and created a.
Marty Reed:   Viable credential.
Marty Reed:  And that partially led to the CLR to spec moving 
  forward and aligning with ob3 work that carry Dimitri number of 
  their parties on this call we're leaders and if I missed you aw 
  geez but what we learned there's some pretty decent technical 
  differences between JWT and Jacob us as far as size of credential 
  that the signing mechanisms and then systems.
Marty Reed:   Seems were not.
Marty Reed:  I need someone still are not ready for a compound or 
  stackable credential and then finally a size limitations have 
  Network showing these early blockchain ecosystems were designed 
  for a single assertion credential they were designed for very 
  simple credential to be exchanged and what was produced from that 
  transcript was not a simple credential and so it kind of helped 
  push push on the market a bit that prompted.
Marty Reed:   A sub work group in the vce you.
Marty Reed:  Around a complex or compound credential to just say 
  that yes this is a thing so the two main goals I think of kind of 
  the movement to seal our to and ob3 was one to align the two 
  standards to make the two standards interoperable again our open 
  source project did this where I know B 3 can be put it in a 
  collection that collection is.
Marty Reed:   A CLR so you can create.
Marty Reed:  Surgeons with CLR so if we want to go down the road 
  of why not a verifiable presentation one is you know very well 
  priced presentation is ephemeral than two is that you can have 
  associations between assertions in the CLR and and that persist 
  into consuming systems then and then secondly is make it 
  interoperable with the verifiable credential standards so the 
  work group you know there's a lot of.
Marty Reed:   Of everybody's everywhere in these conversations.
Marty Reed:  And so it was obvious that you needed to align with 
  verifiable credential standard so now I'm going to get into just 
  a quick rundown of three use cases of how this can actually be 
  applied so first off is kind of the environment of student 
  teaching so there are many internal requirements that must be met 
  for an institution to place a student in a classroom and there's 
  multiple exchanges and I'll show you a little bit of that then.
Marty Reed:   Currently is the.
Marty Reed:  So we think of a license as your driver's license or 
  a diploma that says one thing about you that's not true in most 
  licenses so for example one state may have three license types 
  and then 3000 endorsements that can be placed in those licenses 
  the other is that you could have you know 3600 different licenses 
  each with its own.
Marty Reed:   Sonne unique endorsement and then I can hold one or 
Marty Reed:  Others licenses and then finally what we're going 
  live with later on this year is kind of connecting EVP to vacancy 
  in school districts so direct connections typically require 
  complex data sharing agreements unless the user is the one to 
  Silla taking the transaction and so and so that's that's the 
  foundation so this is a quick I'm not going to go into this but 
  this is a quick representation of what happens in placing a 
  student in a classroom as a.
Marty Reed:   As a student teacher.
Marty Reed:  And getting their license so each one of these 
  arrows represents a point of friction and any place that you can 
  reduce that friction speeds up the time to live connecting that 
  student teacher into the classroom so I just show this to show 
  those multiple parties exchanging data and each one of these can 
  represent a verifiable credential exchange between these parties 
  secondly is just a real world representation of a.
Marty Reed:   A teaching license and the reason for this.
Marty Reed:  Show folks how complex how much detail there is just 
  in a single license and this is our description for those 
  Mississippi Educators just for them to understand what's on the 
  page so if you think about it you think about okay we're just 
  kind of transition from paper to electronic format yes but in 
  each of those implementations you have to educate the market and 
  educate the users in how to use that the interesting thing about 
  showing this.
Marty Reed:   With Ed.
Marty Reed:  They said well we want the nice pretty pretty 
  license that we used to get and the head of the licensing 
  department said well here's the problem with that is that paper 
  was only as good as the day it was printed and so we added that 
  origination to the to the physical license and then under that is 
  a QR code that simply links to the public look up information to 
  validate license so there's no BC in that it's simply a link kind 
  of meeting them where.
Marty Reed:   Rat today.
Marty Reed:  Finally is you know what does that all lead to you 
  well that leaves two EPS exchanging data with districts and then 
  changing those data other data with State systems but thinking a 
  little bit outside the box of what a credential can represent the 
  idea of a teaching position credential that a district can you 
  know issue not award and and allowing them to issue a not award 
  that credential allows for us to.
Marty Reed:  The relationship with a potential candidate into 
  that position so you have a student teacher position connected 
  with a mentor teacher credential and so all of this is a complete 
  ecosystem of you know candidate provider licensing body employer 
  all in all together and so and so we will be moving this forward 
  in a couple of states with you know tens of thousands of users 
  here in the next probably six months.
Marty Reed:   It's and that'll all be.
Marty Reed:  On CLR to and ob3 standard alongside the verifiable 
  credential so what we've experienced in this kind of transition 
  from CLR 10 B to to you know to where we are at today is really a 
  lot of Education of the market education and when I say Market 
  I'm not talking about the people in this room because this room 
  already knows all this stuff what I'm talking about is the end 
  users and why.
Marty Reed:   Why they would.
Marty Reed:  And ultimately it comes down to reducing friction so 
  if any in any case where you can apply technology to reduce 
  friction for the end user for the licensing body for the provider 
  you have a real-world benefit that they can relate to and so then 
  you know 20 22 24 is really adoption and implementation here's a 
  few just kind of a couple of risks of adoption that we've seen in 
  this one is.
Marty Reed:   There's already system.
Marty Reed:  Do this thing so why do we need another thing to log 
  into in the first place and so we're talking about reducing 
  friction you cannot add another element of a thing that I have to 
  do even in our experience with some of these Statewide systems 
  even having one button click is a very very contentious action in 
  some of these systems and so you really have to make it easy and 
  then two is I wanted to be difficult for someone to lead my ear.
Marty Reed:   Ecosystem and that when we kind of overcome over a 
  number of years.
Marty Reed:  The very first arguments was I control and really 
  own this license data why would I want to give them agency over 
  this data and so the ultimate argument there was look we're not 
  we're not promoting folks leading your ecosystem we're growing 
  folks coming into your ecosystem so solving the reciprocity 
  problem from the outside in and then a benefit of that is that it 
  goes from inside out as well but the real pitches you know we 
  want to allow.
Marty Reed:   Ow others to come in.
Marty Reed:  The military spouse use case is a big one in even 
  military transitions back into the workforce all of that you know 
  is a big part of that risk to but it is a very very important 
  area to pay attention to so terms of next step is really 
  credential has everything so the recommendation of the licensing 
  enforcement experience position or following you know VC was 
  early adoption of EC was around supply chain.
Marty Reed:   And so and so you have to make it as frictionless.
Marty Reed:  Came in the credential ecosystem making it easy so 
  authoring see large today is difficult requires expertise and 
  accessibility is critical for adoption we all know that but we're 
  all trying to build on you know where the next layers of 
  accessibility are and making authoring easy as critical to that 
  and then continuing the education so as many times as I tell the 
  same story over and over again over the past three four five six 
  12 years.
Marty Reed:   You still have to tell that story again and again 
  and again.
Marty Reed:  And again and so and so that's where we kind of 
  continue that education of the overall Market.
Marty Reed:  So that's just kind of my quick rundown again this 
  is not a how more of a why but I will I think I dropped it links 
  for both of the standards and the implementation guides and chat 
  and happy to take questions I see Phil along in the issue.
Kerri Lemoie:  Yes before I before we call on film ready thank 
  you for that what is could use would you mind sharing a link to 
  your slides at some point during the call so we have those in the 
Marty Reed:  I cannot share those because they have some 
  proprietary information on them but I can strip down a version 
  without the screenshots and share that so I can do that.
Kerri Lemoie:  Yeah that would be fine something like that would 
  be great thank you okay thanks I'm going to call an alcohol and 
  fill and then I'll come back Phil Long.
PL/T3_ASU: Yes thank you can you hear me okay great thanks Marty 
  that was a really helpful presentation summarizing some really 
  terrific work you and your colleagues have been doing and I was 
  intrigued by the discussion at the end about the adoption 
  barriers and you made the observation of sort of looking at the 
  adoption from those concerned about giving away control of their 
PL/T3_ASU: Mentioning that it was looking at it from the inside 
  out and and adding less friction for people to enter the system 
  as a as a sort of counterbalance to the concerns that the loss of 
  potential giving away of ownership or control of the data might 
  be concerned considered as threatening to that group can you 
  elaborate a little bit more on that in terms of what do you mean 
  by bringing more people into the system and and and how.
PL/T3_ASU:  that might have mitigated.
PL/T3_ASU: Concern over an agency that they seem to be concerned 
  about losing.
Marty Reed:  So it's it's very kind of so there's a there's a 
  huge teacher vacancy challenge throughout you know the United 
  States and generally over throughout the world but and so 
  out-of-state licenses for teachers when everything you bring 
  those in from other states there are reciprocity agreements and 
  there's even a interstate compact agreement that's it.
Marty Reed:   Is being worked on right now with.
Marty Reed:  But net-net the out-of-state teaching license 
  doesn't always get you a license in that new state and it takes 
  about three to six months to get that out of state license 
  converted to an in-state license and so you hear folks talk on 
  the Council of state governments call where a military spouse she 
  has five licenses in five states because it's easier to keep them 
  than it is to get them to get a new one and so and so it's really 
  about reducing the friction.
Marty Reed:   For those out of state license holders to be.
Marty Reed:  In that state and so when I talk about folks owning 
  the data I'm talking about the state's I'm not talking about 
  individuals so much and so reducing the friction to get out of 
  state licenses out of state licensed individuals license in that 
  state is is a critical value in reducing that friction of you 
  know three to six months of do we accept this license do we 
  accept the endorsements on this license do these endorsements map 
  to our course codes you know when in reality the.
Marty Reed:   The component parts.
Marty Reed:  A license are typically actually reciprocal so.
PL/T3_ASU: Thank you Marty that's helpful I'm just a curious 
  quick follow-up do you think this is unique in the sense that 
  there is such a high demand at the moment given the the 
  difficulty in attracting candidates and teacher education as well 
  as many other jobs that it's a somewhat inopportune time in a 
  number of domains teacher education being one of them for that 
  argument to be made.
Marty Reed:  So another great another great use case actually was 
  presented to me and I didn't even think about it but I was 
  speaking with Andrew Fisher who I know a number of folks on the 
  call know and he's actually doing some work in the towing 
  industry so it's a not it's not a licensed not a licensed 
  industry but it's highly regulated and so he has found a space in 
  the towing industry where credentialing the drivers allows those.
Marty Reed:   Towing companies to reduce.
<pl/t3_asu> LOL - meeting with Andrew tomorrow!
Marty Reed:  There's liability and reduce and ultimately reduce 
  their insurance costs so I believe that there's actually a 
  tremendous amount license and unlicensed articles that have an 
  opportunity to leverage these types of you know strategies to 
  reduce friction in their industry and that ultimately produces 
  dollars in his case real dollars for those towing companies to to 
  reduce their Insurance liability and cost.
Marty Reed:  Are you hear all about it.
PL/T3_ASU: Ironically I'm meeting with Andrew tomorrow and that's 
  all they're all about it so thank you for the heads up so I can 
  be more intelligent when the conversation starts great job great 
  job Marty.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thanks feeling Marty my day I put myself in the 
  queue because even though many people on this call like have 
  heard a lot about open Badges and CLR I might it's my 
  understanding that a lot of people don't understand the 
  differences between the two so wonder if we could like backup 
  other the beginning of your presentation and if you wouldn't mind 
  sort of unpacking that a little bit and explaining the difference 
  and the similarity is now that the models are more aligned than 
  they were before.
Kerri Lemoie:   For previous versions.
Marty Reed:  Sure and and again I feel really silly talking about 
  this whenever a carry the boys on this call but but I'll go ahead 
  and share that you know.
Kerri Lemoie:  Wait before you do let me just say that Marty was 
  a has been the co-chair of the CLR and really has been very 
  important to make sure that all of this work is aligned so this 
  is why I want him to explain it thanks Marty.
Marty Reed:  Yeah thank you so so the company well let's just 
  start with open badge so open badge is really a single assertion 
  it aligns very well with the BC here you see kind of the graphic 
  and again these are in the chat but you have a single assertion 
  by an issuer about a subject with a proof and that can contain 
  you know achievement results evidence recipient of that 
Marty Reed:   Any alignments maybe like four.
Marty Reed:  It's in the CTV CTV alignments and description so 
  then the CLR is actually just a wrapper around that type of 
  assertion and so you have the CLR that can have one or many 
  assertions embedded in it each one of those assertions is a VC 
  itself so you have you know VC with the feces in it now.
Marty Reed:   I will admit.
Marty Reed:  You know say that some of this is not as elegant as 
  some of the presentations that we've seen in this work group as 
  far as a multi assertion BC credential at the time this was the 
  this was the most this was the frictionless least friction to get 
  to a VC alignment so it is a VC would be seized in it and I did 
  mention you know why is this not why is this.
Marty Reed:   CL are not a VP it.
Marty Reed:  Because we peace do not are ephemeral and do not 
  persist now they could in the future it may change and we're open 
  to that discussion but today this is this is a case so the other 
  piece that neither none of those components host or manage is the 
  associations between those assertions so you have a parent-child 
  relationship available.
Marty Reed:   In the.
Marty Reed:  CLR spec which is very important whenever you look 
  at again the license that I mentioned where you have multiple 
  endorsements associated with that license that's going to be 
  really a multi multiple assertions because those endorsements are 
  used in relation to that license and external to that license 
  that they're going to be reused as a relationship between a 
  single course code for example the other you know another piece 
  around clrs you can have multiple signers.
Marty Reed:   And so in the in the.
Marty Reed:  Selves they can be signed by another party that the 
  VC is not signed so if you think about self self signed 
  credentials this gives you the opportunity to do that IE I 
  packaged up these credentials signed by these other parties and I 
  have signed this as a verifiable credential so so that a very 
  very high level that's kind of how they how they relate and 
  really kind of moving open badge out of that just strictly.
Marty Reed:   Lee micro credential frame.
<pl/t3_asu> VP's persisting is unlikely in the VCDM v2.  The VPs 
  value is in the negotiated stacking of a set of VCs to be 
  transported to an end point.
Marty Reed:  Work into a general assertion so you could do a 
  license it was just a simple very simple license you can do a 
  license as a badge as open badge sorry no I don't skip that so so 
  there are opportunities now to kind of remove some of the micro 
  credential nomenclature around open Badges and simply make it a 
  assertion of a credential.
Kerri Lemoie:  Yeah thanks Mary thanks for for aligning that a 
  bit for us.
Kerri Lemoie:  How are you going to go on am I interrupting you 
Marty Reed:  Nope nope that was I was kind of sound light I know 
  everybody can can read so your specifications are out there and 
  you know happy to entertain any other experts that were in the 
  room and the development of that you know again I see names like 
  Dimitri and David Ward that were deep in this work as well so if 
  there's anything that you guys think I'm should speak up.
Kerri Lemoie:  X-ray yeah I mean does anybody have any questions 
  about about this topic about the CLR and I'm about open badges 
  you know how they can work together and you know what Marty just 
  described because I think my imagine is that some people are 
  trying to figure out you know what which one they should use.
Kerri Lemoie:   And I mean it's a good.
Marty Reed:  Yep that is a question I agree and it's difficult I 
  think today right now to make that decision easily so I agree 
  with you this kind of Hope Phil.
PL/T3_ASU: Yeah I got your I just asking I guess for some 
  Recollections about the complexity of the alignments that clrs 
  can see lrv tutors can contain and anything that that in your 
  experience working with them is there anything that would help I 
  mean it seems like one of those Arcane spaces that.
PL/T3_ASU:  our spend years.
PL/T3_ASU: Don't understand themselves and and since they are 
  alignments often that are representing rulesets about what 
  combinations of course is for a major for example are necessary 
  and some of it is in terms of precedents and sequence and some of 
  it is in terms of other other areas is there some anything from 
  your extensive work in this space that might help people when 
  they interpret or try to interpret.
PL/T3_ASU:  Burt building these alignments.
Marty Reed:  That is a is a deep that is a deep subject so I will 
  say you know one is there's two there's two expressions one is an 
  alignment which is kind of a Target framework if you will you 
  know like CDL or case server or something to that effect and then 
  there's associations and that Association gives you kind of that 
  parent-child relationship.
PL/T3_ASU: Yeah I may have been conflating the two and in and 
  confusing ways when I was.
Marty Reed:  But I think it is actually a line pretty well with 
  what the current the current constraints are in the marketplace 
  so you have the idea of Pathways those Pathways have 
  relationships in between individual credentials and so in order 
  to actually assert that that pathway in the right way you do need 
  associations between between those credentials and it's easier to 
  kind of.
Marty Reed:  Inspect or interrogate those credentials with those 
  associations in place.
<pl/t3_asu> do degree audit tools help here?
Marty Reed:  Sharon I'm scared.
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> one straightforward way to 
  think about using the alignments is to align/link to more complex 
  context than what can/should be included in the VC
Sharon Leu:  Hey Marty I just have a question about how hard is 
  it to make the transition to CLR to we heard earlier that a lot 
  of announcements are being made about how CLR is becoming the 
  standard for transcripts I'm curious like whether that 
  conversation has started or whether people are just going to 
  onboard themselves in to CLR V1 and then eventually make the 
  transition over.
Marty Reed:  Yeah so great great question Sharon I mean I would 
  just give you kind of our use case so we were we were discussing 
  like how to you know kind of architect the CLR to from scratch 
  you know as far as producing a CLR to but you know with a few 
  modifications to naming conventions.
Marty Reed:  We have a signing service that converts it to seal 
  our to and it doesn't necessarily convert it as much as it just 
  signs it as a verifiable credential and assigns each assertion is 
  a verifiable credential and that that is a lot easier to to do so 
  you can with with a little bit of you know machination converts 
  tlr-1 pretty directly to CLR to.
Marty Reed:  And that signing service maybe an open-source 
  signing service here in a few months.
Kerri Lemoie:  That would be so helpful Marty thank you.
Marty Reed:  Answered all the questions.
<pl/t3_asu> has there been any pushback on the signing of 
  individual OBv3s as courses in the CLRv2?
Kerri Lemoie:  I don't see any other questions in the queue but 
  we have a little bit of time you've so far I've answered all of 
  the questions for he did an excellent job but I'll give folks 
  like you know another minute here to see if there's anything else 
  you can think of these like to ask Marty at this time.
Kerri Lemoie:  A going forward I'm sure we're going to be talking 
  about more of these standards over the over the course of the 
  year and you would more because now we're heading into 
  implementations and and really really interesting to see what 
  what comes out of this.
Marty Reed:  Yeah I think it's a really exciting time and just 
  kind of from a global statement standpoint how far the market has 
  come in the past year you know I think it's I think it's 
  equivalent to the previous five years and I think we're on Pace 
  to do that again for my particular crystal ball which is cloudy 
  most of the time but the next 12 months I think will have the 
  same velocity if not more.
Marty Reed:  Just do to to you know plugfest real collaborations 
Kerri Lemoie:  I think that's right actually I think like this 
  year and maybe next year will be more implementations may be more 
  platforms transitioning to the newer standards and then I think 
  we might start scaling these that's what I'm aiming for is to try 
  and get as many people interested as possible and see what those 
  use cases are and then we start you know scaling from there and 
  yeah I think you're right it's been moving a lot faster lately.
Marty Reed: 
Marty Reed:  Yeah and and and you know again we'll be 
  implementing at least two to scale implementations there's a link 
  to the.
Marty Reed:  Non-proprietary slides and the chat yeah I think I 
  think there will be you know at least two I know I know for 
  others that are pretty well on their way so.
Marty Reed:  Thanks for the opportunity.
<sharon_leu> Thanks!
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you thanks for joining us today we're 
  telling us about your work and CLR everybody else so yeah sure of 
  course anybody else you have everybody else I'm sorry I have a 
  great week and I will see you next Monday thanks Al.
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> thanks for this great work!
<dave_mccool_(muzzy_lane)> Thanks!
<justin_mason> Thanks!
<susan_stroud> Thank you

Received on Thursday, 9 March 2023 16:35:41 UTC