- From: CCG Minutes Bot <minutes@w3c-ccg.org>
- Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2023 22:04:37 +0000
Thanks to Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week!
The transcript for the call is now available here:
https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2023-07-10-vc-education/
Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio of the meeting is available at the following location:
https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2023-07-10-vc-education/audio.ogg
----------------------------------------------------------------
VC for Education Task Force Transcript for 2023-07-10
Agenda:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-edu/2023Jul/0000.html
Topics:
1. IP Note
2. Call Notes
3. Introductions & Reintroductions
4. Main Topic - Open Recognition with Julie Keane from
Participate.com & Don Presant from factory.cancred.ca
Organizer:
Kerri Lemoie
Scribe:
Our Robot Overlords
Present:
Nis Jespersen , Kerri Lemoie, Margo Johnson, Don Presant, Julie
Keane, David Mason, Chris Webber, Hiroyuki Sano, Japan, Andy
Griebel, Stuart Freeman, James Chartrand, Maarten Boender, Deb
Everhart, Phil Barker, eric, David Ward, John Kuo, Jim Goodell,
Dmitri Zagidulin, Azeem, Doug Belshaw, Manu Sporny, Taylor (LEF),
Serge Ravet, Kimberly Linson, Simone Ravaoli, Ryan Grant, TimG,
Nate Otto, Eric Shepherd, Kaliya Young, Kayode Ezike, Jeff O -
HumanOS, Keith Hackett, Krystal Rawls
<kerri_lemoie> Hello all
<julie_keane> Hey!
<adam_eunson_(tangle_labs)> :wave:
<adam_eunson_(tangle_labs)> Hello from sunny Switzerland :D
<maarten_boender> Present
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
<doug_belshaw> Serge and I were in the Google Meet, lol
Kerri Lemoie: Hello everybody Welcome to the Monday July 10th
verify the credentials for Education task force call my name is
Perry lavoie transcriber might call me Cary Illinois but really
I'm sorry look like today our main topic is open recognition we
have a Julie Smith and a out here to present when you kick off a
discussion about open recognition and verifiable steps.
Kerri Lemoie: So let me get a few things.
Topic: IP Note
Kerri Lemoie: And then we will get going first thing is to know
that anybody can participate in these calls these are open calls
but if you intend to do any work on any credential community
group spec then you should join the clinical community group and
inside me I pr agreement that information is in the agenda link
that I put in the chat follow that their reach out to me if you
are serious about becoming a signed up man.
Kerri Lemoie: Our of the TCG.
Topic: Call Notes
Kerri Lemoie: Also note that these calls are recorded and there
are minutes and everything is to add a public page and it was
archives there you can see it later with the calls are over we
typically send out an email within a day or so with the published
minute also note that we use accused festivities called so we
really encourage discussion we want to make sure that everybody
has a chance.
Kerri Lemoie: So if you are you look at the question of.
Topic: Introductions & Reintroductions
Kerri Lemoie: And the conversation piece of paper to press like
I just did in the chat and then you can also take a few - you
take yourself out of the few okay and before I would get going
couple other things one is I'm introductions and re-inspection is
there anybody that's new to the call today that would like to
introduce themselves if so you can see yourself up in the chat
and this includes anybody who would also like to reproduce
themselves oh and one other thing.
Kerri Lemoie: In addition to typing to you or a few- you.
Kerri Lemoie: The other hand.
Kerri Lemoie: At the level of navigation I see that you have to
give yourself up.
Eric: Yep hi everybody so I'm new to the school I'm a pretty girl
John Q working on the solution called pockets for Arizona State
University and yeah I guess that's it I'm the engineering manager
for the team that's pretty much it.
<adam_eunson_(tangle_labs)> I'd like to say hi.
Kerri Lemoie: Thank you I think 20 teaching yourself.
Kerri Lemoie: Adam I think you there cat how are you.
Adam_Eunson_(Tangle_Labs): Thank you very much I'm great thank
you I'm Adam I'm just one of the founders from Tango Labs which
is a German company that we're currently working on interoperable
Solutions in self Sovereign identity I had the pleasure of
meeting Dimitri actually in dice in Zurich not long ago and he
invited me to participate because our Focus currently is with
UNESCO learning institute's and cities in the EU working towards
an interoperable loner identity ecosystem.
Adam_Eunson_(Tangle_Labs): whatever one of those will end up
peeing.
Adam_Eunson_(Tangle_Labs): One of our focus is actually working
towards a sort of Universal open source badge data model
specification so that's something that that's kind of in the
pipeline's is purely based on D ID and verifiable credentials so
it's great to be here thank you.
Dmitri Zagidulin: From Adam really glad to have you here.
Manu Sporny: +1 Welcome Adam! :)
Adam_Eunson_(Tangle_Labs): Hey how you doing awesome how is di
web sorry I'm digressing.
Adam_Eunson_(Tangle_Labs): Yeah I'd love to at some point.
Kerri Lemoie: Thanks for joining us Adam and I love to hear more
about what you working on maybe you can present on some call
great thank you.
Adam_Eunson_(Tangle_Labs): My wife's off work so if I do work
next week I get killed.
<julie_keane> staying married is important
Manu Sporny: +1
<adam_eunson_(tangle_labs)> Hell yeah
<adam_eunson_(tangle_labs)> :D
Kerri Lemoie: Let you out figure that out we can figure that out
okay don't see any other introductions or reintroductions it
makes you have to be paying married is important and I was
wondering if anybody has an announcement or reminders that they
would like to share if so why don't you go ahead and kill
yourself up and let us know - hi.
Manu Sporny: Request: Demonstration of Support for Selective
Disclosure for Data Integrity --
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2023Jun/0164.html
Manu Sporny: Hey thanks Gary one quick and we are trying to
close up the demonstrations of support for Selective disclosure
for data Integrity so there was an email that was sent out to the
verifiable sorry credentials community group about showing
support for Selective disclosure for data Integrity of put that
email in the.
Manu Sporny: Chat Channel.
<manu_sporny> Selective Disclosure for W3C Data Integrity
--https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1d-04kIWhPuNscsAyUuRH3pduqrNerhigCWahKe6SNos/edit#
Manu Sporny: For those of you that hadn't heard about it this is
basically a way of selectively disclosing something in a
verifiable credential so think if a student has a student ID and
it's got a lot of their information in it as a verifiable
credential this selective disclosure mechanism would allow them
to just disclose like the university that they attend without
losing any of the other information last name first.
Manu Sporny: First name.
Manu Sporny: Or so without disclosing their personally
identifiable information we are getting ready to raise a set of
pull requests in the verifiable credential working group and we
would like to make sure that we've got support from this
community before we do that there is a sign-up sheet so there's a
presentation that I linked to in the chat Channel selected
disclosure for w3c data Integrity in.
Manu Sporny: And there is a.
<manu_sporny> Demonstration of Support for NIST-Compliant
Selective Disclosure for Data Integrity Cryptosuites in VCWG --
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DzYfqkgCQfsXEkqLegy2v7Dhtf0sQQYrT2JAGbnaMjE/edit
Manu Sporny: That we would like folks to add their names to if
they have selective disclosure use cases and they want to see
this thing exists as a global standard there's a sheet for that
here so I'll not in here in the chat Channel that's there so if
you you know have a use case or need for doing selective
disclosure.
Manu Sporny: With verifiable credentials.
Manu Sporny: I would appreciate you putting your name down on
that sheet so that we can demonstrate that there's interest so
that we can push that forward on the global standard stage that's
it thanks.
Kerri Lemoie: That's awesome thank you money Korea you and next
to meet you.
<julie_keane> When will the bot transcribe baby talk. It would
be amazing
Kerri Lemoie: https://internetidentityworkshop.com/
Kaliya Young: Share that the internet and workshop number I
think it's 37 is coming up in October pretty early and I'm skirt
10 to 12 um so just letting folks know about it and I'll say that
but it took us abilities if you want to be then we'll do here.
<kaliya_identitywoman> Thanks
Kerri Lemoie: You're breaking up a little bit but I put the link
to the iwi and the cat for folks to sign up for those of you who
are interested in plus side we are planning on holding of the day
before like we did last last look I've Monday October 9th I'm in
the same location.
Kerri Lemoie: I have a floor.
<kerri_lemoie> Great!
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Okay thanks Carrie surges also here we have
an exciting announcement for this morning which is that our beta
sign up has opened today for Orca the open recognition Community
app this is intended to be open source but we're planning for an
open source release around December this year with some early
partner access new open badges 3.0 verifiable credentials
platform also supporting open badge.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): has 2.0 the focus is on.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Practice who want to do bad weather including
the badges at the same time that they're producing them reducing
the distance between when that credential is awarded and when
it's when it's consumed as much as possible so new beta signups
are open today it's a waitlist and so we will gradually invite
new communities in as we have capacity for them and in addition
that little bit of a user's group where people can discuss and
talk about how to use.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): badges for open recognition so I'll put a
sign up link in.
https://social.orcabadges.org/user/registration/by-link?token=rZLZtDPbs3cpa2&spaceId=2
Nate_Otto_(he/him): And stay tuned also for announcements on
LinkedIn and all the socials today.
Topic: Main Topic - Open Recognition with Julie Keane from Participate.com & Don Presant from factory.cancred.ca
Kerri Lemoie: Asking me that's really great good good timing
here because it's called okay it looks like the queue is empty so
why do we go ahead and move to the next topic which is about open
recognition so I would like to introduce Julie Keen from
participate.com to kick us off and on will have some slides for
us and we just discussion do it also.
Julie_Keane: Yeah all right well we've been teed up very well by
Adam and also Nate and there's lots of open recognition folks
here Serge and made and Simona and Carrie and Cheryl and Doug and
Anna so lots of folks have been working in this space so Don and
I are really just representing we have a couple of groups that
will lots of community calls that go on monthly so we'll talk
about that at the end but I'm just going to not waste any time.
Julie_Keane: time and let's dive into open recognition.
Julie_Keane: Don take it away.
Don_Presant: Great thanks Julie can everybody hear me okay.
Don_Presant: Great so yeah don't Present part of the open
recognition workgroup we're one of the active communities of
practice connected with the open skills Network I see in the list
of participants on supported today by several co-conspirators and
I'm sure I'll be reaching out to several of them that said this
is a fairly technical group were speaking to you today this is a
fairly non-technical talk we're just basically talking about
principles and values that we think.
Don_Presant: are important and should be thought about When
developing these.
Kerri Lemoie: +1 To principles & values related to this tech
Don_Presant: So I thought I'd start somewhat controversially to
say you know my credentials and other verifiable credentials
feeding it to skills based hiring sounds pretty good until you
start to think about it a bit I like to call this Frank and skill
Stein or maybe that's team for employers where the ideas that
they can simply specify some kind of a unicorn and lo and behold
there it is sort of assembled on the fly as it were and there
seems to be a under.
Don_Presant: lying in some.
Don_Presant: Part of many that were just the sum of our skills
and we in our community think that people are more than that I
found this report from last September pretty useful but it really
it's still thinking about that idea of the hungry mouths the idea
that it's just about skills it's just about hiring key
stakeholders being employers institutions and government and
really there's no.
Don_Presant: there's no learner voice.
Don_Presant: In this document and in a lot of the discussions and
also this notion about communities that Nate which is talking
about and hope we get a chance to explore more in the
question-and-answer later on a lot of this began before micro
credentials it began with a very expansive notion of connected
learning in other words learning that's connected to things that
you care about starting with your passions and seeing where they
take.
Don_Presant: you a more can I say.
Don_Presant: Laura Tori Journey based kind of a vision and notice
though none left that there's online learning but there's also
things like volunteer programs that could also be things like
makerspaces and out-of-school activities Kerry has some great
experience with that with a cheery so and then then you notice on
the right job opportunities it's only one of the doors that can
open to you so the vision wasn't only about life long learning it
was about life wide learning very much rooted in the community
and I'm sure some people.
Don_Presant: remember she called the city of learning Pittsburgh
city of learning at the Sprout found at cetera.
Don_Presant: It a lot.
Don_Presant: Colleges and universities universities didn't really
know what to do with this concept it was meant Wild West they're
worried about who was issuing the badges whether too many were
being issued lack of assessment lack of quality standards but I
think a lot of people also saw an opportunity to break some of
the big degrees or macro credentials down into modular stackable
chunks in there was a sort of parallel notion of stacking of
programs that ended up being conflated with it so we started to
hear.
Don_Presant: during about the term micro credential Run 2014
2015 defined by you.
Don_Presant: Going many others.
Don_Presant: It really comes down to a lot of course certificates
fairly institution Centric very much with a fairly top-down
framing of recognition which we feel has a tendency to pull the
original Vision out of shape.
Don_Presant: So recognition I think is key word and it's got a
wide scope outside of formal recognition the professions hiring
practices because there's a notion of self recognition and even
self-assertion and that can be self-actualization but it can also
progress to you making a claim about yourself that's verifiable
perhaps you think you might do in a resume or cover letter in a
verifiable way that can be a supported by others then there's
social recognition the kind you get among peers and then.
Don_Presant: these may be built around geography may be around
practices interests Etc and that's kind of what Orca.
Don_Presant: Don't make me just mentioning so my company learning
agents where we do Consulting and we developed a framework for
the inter-american development bank and this is a sort of a
generic version of that framework that expands in a little bit
and it's a the attempt is to try and Encompass this wide spectrum
of recognition and diversity of what people are doing so on the
left you have the more sort of micro-credentialing.
Don_Presant: tough and most of it is the assessment certificate.
<kerri_lemoie> Link to slides:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/153qXiNr9xTUWKKev8HytXw84YgLTttzomYdOqvOL8Xc/edit#slide=id.p
Don_Presant: Certifications in other words you're qualified for
roll over on the right it's more about you know did you complete
of course did you participate in an activity in the middle maybe
you're assembling a body of evidence that can may or may not be
evaluated by others but way over on the right that's where I
think the magic happens and that's why we're here today sings
Awards achievements that P reassuring that self issuing ad hoc
and and more emergent so it's more appreciative.
Don_Presant: on the right more summative and authenticate.
<doug_belshaw> /waves
Don_Presant: On the left so Doug belches pulled this together
that we are open Co-op I think Doug's on the call today so this
is a comparison about how open recognition might compare to my
credentials I'm not going to read it all but just sort of have a
look and you sort of had this idea on the one side it's very much
what's a word a repackaging of certifications certificates.
Don_Presant: Etc over on the right it's more of.
Don_Presant: Sort of an expansive notion and we think there's
room for both it's a big tent but we do find that sometimes
there's not enough oxygen for conversations about what should be
happening on the right and there's huge value they're both for
the individuals and even for others in less formal approaches to
to recognition so here are some examples that have been explored
over the past number of years where it could.
Don_Presant: be a selfish.
Don_Presant: I did a hard thing and some scaffolding they're
saying why was it hard what did you do why is that significant or
it could be I just learned something today or somebody saying
that you're a good person to work with and if you have enough of
those maybe that starts having some cash a so or I have a hidden
talent so in other words I didn't take a course to do this I
actually know something already that people don't know about me
and I'm asserting that here and then over on the right we have
some interesting ones pick up the reins or.
Don_Presant: her in planning.
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> I love the way this comparison
draws on discussions we had even in the earliest open badge work
groups about individuals issuing badges
Don_Presant: And I'd like to now introduce Anna heyliger who's
the author of these badges for million in turn now on the staff
at we are open Co-op to tell her story Anna are you there.
Don_Presant: This picture of you.
<kerri_lemoie> Thanks, Anna!
<doug_belshaw> (based on original work by ORA / Serge)
Don_Presant: So I think that's a that's a great segue to this
definition that Doug Bell shall pull together that which works
for a lot of us and it's just the idea that what we know what we
can do who were about really goes beyond credentialing and
includes recognizing individuals and communities and where those
communities are and and and their right to apply their own
definitions and their own.
Don_Presant: own labels to what they know and can do.
Don_Presant: And those can be rising up or implicit or they can
move their way to be explicit but the point is that they're very
much rooted in the context and the actual people people involved
Doug you may want to add to this.
Don_Presant: If you're there.
<doug_belshaw> Sorry Jitsi wouldn't let me unmute
Don_Presant: No worries I'll just keep moving so I think just to
bring things back to this audience it's useful to start talking
about ways of extracting value or leveraging this combination of
data that can be structured and unstructured and about people and
by people so we have for example.
Don_Presant: Bottom left we have credential engine doing great
work with other organizations such as HR open to develop very
structured approaches to recognition of credentials hiring
processes so HR open for example is my understanding is that
there was a way of making a it's a essentially a self assertion
that can be endorsed by others by Third parties so that's a it's
a parallel to what what is.
Don_Presant: being developed and.
Don_Presant: Example and we also have very unstructured stories
on the other hand that are stories in and among themselves so in
other words a badge that somebody might have that Anna was
talking about it but learning Finnish or existing in a totally
different environment for a while so Julie this might be a good
time to talk about experience you as yeah.
Julie_Keane: Yeah yeah happy to so experience you and many people
on the call may be familiar with this project it's another
Walmart funded initiative it's being co-organized by education
development Design Lab so long as also helping along with others
to basically think about how you use AI to you to turn
unstructured data into structured.
Julie_Keane: de and then lay those on to.
Julie_Keane: Digital and verifiable credentials we are I have a
couple of colleagues here on this call that are working with a
group called work Bay which focuses on incarcerated folks and
they are sort of telling stories it's very difficult to have
people sort of self a test particularly when they are in
vulnerable and marginalized populations so the idea is to elicit
sort of stories using transcripts and then structuring laying
that on to more structured.
Julie_Keane: economies at the.
Julie_Keane: Within the earners control about what gets laid onto
it economy and then those are turned into digital credentials so
there is a T3 meeting next week many folks on this call will be
there and we will be presenting this project along I believed
along with 15 other projects that are also using AI to turn
unstructured data into structured data.
Julie_Keane: Yeah so follow that yeah.
Don_Presant: So so basically we're saying there should be a
balance I mentioned the big tent and we think there should be a
way for people to invent themselves and to continue to invent
themselves in ways that make sense for their lives and their
careers that's this notion of a key guy and or this is the less
preferred option the idea that people can be assembled according
to skills and put to work.
Don_Presant: work in.
Don_Presant: So along those lines sarrish is with us today sir
well Sarah Jean Nate we co-authored something called the bolonia
open recognition declaration in the car on the way to an epic
conference in Bologna which Simoni was very very kind to invite
us to and it was sort of a cheeky reference to the bolonia
framework that for academic Co recognition we thought it should
go beyond.
Don_Presant: and academic recognition.
Don_Presant: These are the principles in other words we think
open recognitions for everybody not only to be recognized but to
recognize others we think the technology should be able to
support that and we think policies and even funding that follows
policies should support that as well and it shouldn't just be
about repackaging courses as digital credentials so we encourage
you to sign read and sign the open wrecking recognition
declaration there's actually a badge you can have.
Don_Presant: have to.
Don_Presant: Or your values and put put put those values out
there help build our open recognition Community but further back
here in North America be open open recognition work group has
developed these more specific I guess recommendations principles
to bear in mind as we're developing verifiable credentials open
badges version 3 and just some things to think about the.
Don_Presant: idea of naming your.
<julie_keane> They have not been formally adopted by OSN - but
we are working on it
Don_Presant: Skills and pot perhaps mapping those later the idea
that skills are Dynamic very contextual there's no one framework
to rule them all and a commitment to developing tools and
networks and ecosystem that's not just top down that can be
bought them up and even bridging out peer-to-peer sort of a more
mesh mesh Network and the Partnerships that will support that.
Don_Presant: To conclude these are some of the events across the
top that are going to be exploring this we have an open
recognition thread at the badge Summit coming up in a few weeks
and I'll be delivering a virtual webinar about open recognition
before that that will be recorded and then that epic 2020 37
years after the bolonia open recognition decoration we're still
at it albeit in Vienna and some very interesting people.
Don_Presant: people there including from the South Africa
qualifications Authority.
Don_Presant: Ready former CEO will be there and a number of
others including Carrie who actually submitted a proposal just
last week so we encourage you to submit proposals for that the
deadline is just gone but also we will be accepting further later
and then obviously you'd be on a very welcome as participants
it's really it's a thought leadership conference it's not about
presentations as it is so much about dialogue in the meantime we
also have the keep badges.
Don_Presant: weird Community which is now re re.
Don_Presant: And it is.
Don_Presant: Recognition is for everyone and then the the
community open skills network.org so I think we can go to slide
question and answer.
Don_Presant: Oh sure good idea.
Kerri Lemoie: It is great everybody before we get a big dog do
you mind keeping that slide up to one with the community I like
it share the windows of slides are in the chat but where those
links are legit I mean I really encourage all of you to really
look into all of these different conversations because of the
great community of people who have been working together I mean
really since I was a 2011. A very very beginning of the badges.
Kerri Lemoie: I have been having these conversations and it
means so much that you conversation between.
Kerri Lemoie: Why do things like open Badges and verify the
credentials start getting adopted two more in the I think it's
honestly one of the microcurrent Ali degree representation the
more like formal type of learning and recognition but we don't do
that in our lives right we're learning all the time and we are we
are in communities and we learn from each other and this is part
of why I open badges a lot initially there were really thought
thank you so much you and Julie for being here and.
Kerri Lemoie: And I don't see anybody in the few yet by that
Julie if you want to like to go.
Kerri Lemoie: For those discussions.
Kerri Lemoie: Happy like me money when miss you so much.
Julie_Keane: Sure I mean oh yeah mine are you've been added to
the queue so yeah I'm just curious about thoughts I mean you know
we're doing you know along with Nate's Oregon you know a lot of
other Technologies are really just interested in this community's
thoughts about using verifiable credentials around this open
recognition piece around sort of recognizing each other how would
they sort of be used you know what are some good use cases in
addition to stuff that we had worked on historically around.
Julie_Keane: informal learning.
Manu Sporny: Thanks Julie um yeah I think my biggest question is
kind of from the technical standpoint so the you know the whole
the concept makes sense complete sense right education or
learning is not just about the all the formal Pathways that we
have we also want to recognize the all the informal you know
training that we do and in many cases there's a lot of that that
goes on through.
Manu Sporny: You out kind of are.
Manu Sporny: All careers I guess the main question I have is
more technical you know we're talking about you know how do we
use the open badges stuff how do we use verifiable credentials to
meet the use cases here I guess my question is have you found
have you found technical gaps so we're actively working on these
kind of global standards right now and we're interested to.
Manu Sporny: If this Approach at you know recognizing learning
has uncovered any company badges 30 or any gaps in verifiable
credentials that we could potentially you know patch up fix up
before we ship the version 20 work for verifiable credentials
that's it.
<julie_keane> Nate? Thoughts?
<julie_keane> Kerri?
<doug_belshaw> I can say something about transactional vs social
issuing
Don_Presant: I mentioned that there are a number of technical
people supporting me on the call so I think I'm going to throw to
them pretty quickly I would say that for us the the thrust has
been issuing credentials more sort of pushing pushing them out
and there's been a lot less with pulling credentials and making
while both curating them and making sense of them and then
finding audiences for them so I.
Don_Presant: I'd say that's.
Don_Presant: Sure that's I've been list that as a technical issue
I think it's also a socio-economic one but that would be that
would be a key Gap it has been just sort of pumping out tons of
badges isn't that great no it isn't it's just an input right so
it's what what happens with these things.
Julie_Keane: Again and there's a lot of people in the queue so
I'll only add one thing Manos like just knowing what happened the
first time that cities of learning at least in North America you
know in Chicago was the amount of kids that earn so many badges
throughout the city through the cities of learning and never
claimed them or use them so to the extent you know and then again
I agree with dying that's not a technology may not be answering
that but the technology is being more easy more mobile more
useful might solve some of that problem all right okay okay a lot
of people in the queue here.
<doug_belshaw> Social Verifiable Credentials (unfinished)
https://tinyurl.com/social-vcs
Kerri Lemoie: Gavin I'm next make you so I could say something
real quick and then let other people speak one day some folks may
not understand really about open badges previously to 3.0 and
when I went down and enjoy talking about issuing it means that
it's sort of different than how we talk about issues with
verifiable credentials with issuing we say and it'll meds like
2.0 previously if the file is created there.
Kerri Lemoie: An email address associated with him and someone
was making a statement.
Kerri Lemoie: Our seniors hosted on a web platform whereas this
Majesty Point O and verifiable credentials there's this sense of
the learner being in the middle of it and the learner saying Hey
I want that credential piece give it to me versus it being just
given to them without them really like requiring requesting it I
guess our client requesting it to that's a pretty critical change
in the technology right to thinking about designing user.
Kerri Lemoie: Ants and how they might apply to open breakfast.
Kerri Lemoie: But and also we probably want to think more about
right now it's very very organizationally issuer center right in
terms of the structure of the spec where we don't really leave so
much room for individual stay I am me and I am selfish testing
that you can do it but I don't think many expect that in terms of
verifiable credentials.
Kerri Lemoie: I'm going to stop there so that other people think
us Neo does I'm sorry you're next.
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> love this transcription-- I'm
sure ants would like to feast on open breakfast ;-)
<julie_keane> hahah
Doug_Belshaw: Hey old man - to make jitsi recognize a microphone
so that's all good and just two plus one what scary said and
thank you Don for your presentation so I put something in the
chat earlier just about something I was thinking about last year
which speaks to exactly what Kerry was saying they're all of the
focus really understandably has been around issuing and verifying
making sure that these people are the people who earned this
thing which has meant that really we haven't had as much focus on
learning displaying and sharing the kind of social.
Doug_Belshaw: element of it and so that's Deck that I shared was
really just thinking about what if.
Doug_Belshaw: Verifiable credentials with something like activity
up like how could you do that in an interesting way to allow
socially useful things to happen especially now that we don't
necessarily have to have the badge image it kind of lowers the
barrier to entry to allow open recognition to happen with
verifiable credentials that's all I wanted to say I'm really
happy that the so many talented people on the school.
Kerri Lemoie: Thank you that's awesome I forgot about that yes I
forgot because we always talk about that with open badges but
with 3.0 it's not required and it really does also change with
that means about how the recognition can be used Nate you are
next.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Thanks money you ask a really good question
about you know what technical gaps might we try and patch in this
little time between now and like a VC 2.0 release or open badges
3.0 final finalization we've done a lot of work on patching up
technical gaps over the last few years surges on the column the
first presentation I did with him on this topic of what technical
gaps are there that are making open badges weird for open
recognition was.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): in 2014 at the open education conference
and.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): C and we talked about what Carrie had brought
up which is the asymmetry of the construction between the open
badges 2.0 issuer which was presumed to have a website where they
can post Blobs of Json and the open badges 2.0 recipient which
was just an email address the recipient could not become an
issuer essentially was the problem with open badges 3.0 adopting
the see now we have a common identifier type between these two
entities which is we could use dids and that's easier said than
done.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): done but I suspect that the technical gaps
that we're going to.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Really as the previous speaker said in the
social layer of it in the service layer rather than in the data
model layer for the next sort of stretch of our journey the open
badges 3.0 model is incredibly expressive you can do a whole lot
of stuff with it to describe a different types of learning
achievements as Kerry mentioned no image required anymore so it's
really flexible there and we have this whole realm of like
self-assertion that is now opening up to us the technical.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): a layer of how we actually get those
individuals.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Two workers and be able to sign the
credentials what technology do we put in their hands to be able
to do that that's still an open question and then probably an
even bigger harder question is how do we as an ecosystem
understand the value of all of these many new issuers thought you
know individuals far less formal than even non-traditional
education institutions and after-school clubs that open Meadows
was originally supported for how do we understand the.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): the value and the composition of the many.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Friends that are coming out of individuals on
self recognition and peer recognition processes.
Kerri Lemoie: Dmitri you have the floor
Dmitri Zagidulin: Hey thanks and so I think Nate touched on a
lot of what I was going to mention but to expand on the socio
technical difficulty not exactly a gap but I want I want every
one of you to start thinking about it so.
Dmitri Zagidulin: I think the.
Dmitri Zagidulin: The right end of that Spectrum on one of the
early slides the self assertions and the peer assertions are
incredibly important especially if those self-assertion Czar
backed up by evidence right so I can claim that I know HTML but
then if I can link to an Evidence of that project that I did
online course that I completed it gives it that much more weight.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So what's needed for.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Well you need a way to link credentials
together and cryptographically bind different credentials
together and there's several mechanisms for that we explore one
of the mechanisms in in a paper with Phil and gold on linked
credentials and in fact just these past few weeks the verifiable
credential working group added a mechanism to the core data
model.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Based on sub resource Integrity but
generalizing it that allows credentials to be linked together but
that's that's not the interesting part it's going to be useful
but that's the low level technical part the main difficulty that
we're going to run into that we need to solve if we're to have
self asserted credentials with evidence peer-to-peer credentials
with evidence is the notion of identity and that's the that's the
bit Nate touched.
Dmitri Zagidulin: On already so.
Dmitri Zagidulin: In the verifiable credential the growing
importance of trust Registries what do we mean by that lists of
known issuers lists of known verifiers when I when somebody hands
me a credential signed by a did and a date is just an opaque
string a lot of the did methods are how do I know that potential
signed by did example 1 2 3 4 5 belongs to.
Dmitri Zagidulin: A mighty belongs to Harvard.
Dmitri Zagidulin: We need these these list of known issuers that
correlate credentials to known named entities so we think using
using some of the specs doing incubated in the ccg right now.
Dmitri Zagidulin: We have a technical solution to that we still
need the hard social and legal lift of who keeps these lists
what's the governance how do we trust them all that stuff but
we're fairly confident that for four main institutions it's a
solvable problem the thing we all should should start thinking
about is how do we solve that same problem of identity.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Individuals for self-assertive credentials for
peer credentials meaning again II hand just officer to credential
or a peer credential and let's say I got a track down my
professor at school and got them to give me an Evidence
credential a letter of recommendation credential linking to a
project I did doesn't matter.
Dmitri Zagidulin: When somebody is.
Dmitri Zagidulin: And they see this credential signed by an
opaque did how do they know it belongs to the professor.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Also this notion of.
<doug_belshaw> The thing is that it's still a hierarchical
transactional relationship. Identity in that case matters because
it's high-stakes. Open Recognition is much likely to be
lower-stakes.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Will individual identity intersect with known
issue or lists is something that we as a community need to solve
so I want everybody to start thinking about that and we'll keep
the conversation going thanks.
Kerri Lemoie: Thank you Serge you are next
<doug_belshaw> No-one has ever asked me for my doctoral
cerificate :)
<kaliya_identitywoman> How do you know who owns a particular DID?
<nate_otto_(he/him)> How ORCA addresses these challenges is that
OpenBadgeCredentials are issued by "the community", and peer
EndorsementCredentials are issued by individuals within the
community (and may sometimes need to be expressed outside the
community, in which case initially individual signing keys held
custodially by the community). Going beyond that to enable
individuals to authorize use of their own signing services via
CHAPI might be interesting.
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> and linked data connections
from within the credentials
<dmitri_zagidulin> the questions I raised still stand though - if
a badge was endorsed by an employer, how does the verifier know
the identity of the employer? (specifically, that the employer's
DID belongs to a registered company?) etc.
Kerri Lemoie: You are next.
Manu Sporny: Yeah just to reflect back I think some of the
things that I heard all really great stuff so I'm hearing that
you know from a technology standpoint we have some of the
underpinnings that we would need to make this open recognition
stuff work like we've got you know verifiable credentials we have
open badges V3 you know we're able to we have these kind of
digital wallet things so there's there's some fundamental
technologies that exist there and.
Manu Sporny: Probably not.
Manu Sporny: Is the problem the difficulty is a little higher up
on the technology stack it's like the platform's the platforms
that we have currently don't allow easily individuals to issue
you know open Badges and for us to understand you know to how to
put that individual that has issued the badge in context with
with the larger kind of learning ecosystem and that seems to be
one of the big challenges.
Manu Sporny: These are the platforms that we have right now.
Manu Sporny: And I think it's true the platforms that have been
built to date very much kind of follow-up traditional large
institution issue or model in what we're looking for is something
more Mastodon activity Pub like where you have small social
communities that are interacting with each other and want to
issue within their communities and ideally have that recognized
externally the one thing I wanted to point out to the group is
that we.
Manu Sporny: We're actively working with the.
Manu Sporny: Community and the Mastodon community so they're
very much engaged with at least the digital signature portion of
the verifiable credentials 20 work the data Integrity work there
they're doing a number of implementations to secure activity Pub
messages and that in the mechanism that they're looking at right
now the data Integrity stuff is compatible with you know some of
the stuff that's been used to secure these verifiable credentials
over time so the idea here is that we.
Manu Sporny: You should be able.
Manu Sporny: Have these verifiable credentials open badge v30
stuff be integrated with the technical platforms that that seems
to be a very doable thing but again the problem seems to be a
little higher up the stack how do you change that social kind of
media server such that it enables people to kind of engage on the
social media platform and issue and potentially verify
credentials.
Manu Sporny: As as individuals.
Manu Sporny: I do agree that that would with number of things to
meet reset as well which is you know there are the idea of trust
you know how do you how do you trust this and do you determine it
through context or do you determine it through a
government-issued ID for example those are kind of two two
extremes or is it somewhere in between that seems like a really
interesting topic for this you know group to try and figure out
and solve.
Manu Sporny: So I'm hoping that I.
Manu Sporny: You know correctly if there are some technical
rough edges with the current specifications you know please do
make those known we have another year before we fully ratify
verifiable credentials to 0 but we basically enter feature freeze
in about two months two to three months so if there is something
that you know is desperately needed by this community to support
the open recognition stuff now is definitely the time to raise
issues on the.
Manu Sporny: So that we.
Manu Sporny: Technology in there for this this iteration of the
spec thanks.
Kerri Lemoie: Welcome to My Nail and Deb right next to me.
<taylor_(lef)> Also working with many web3 communities who are
directionally aligned (e.g. Protocol Labs, Metamask, etc)
<kayode_ezike> Does Open Recognition codify reputation/credence
in some way, such that consumers of an recognition issued by peer
P1 to peer P2 understand that recognition from P1 in that domain
is passable/credible?
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): So I think my new said a lot of
this and also Don in the chat so I'll be brief but it seems to me
you know there's a whole range of use cases in terms of what's
needed and expected of a trusted network of providers and how you
can reliably identify who is who and you know if you're if you're
dealing with something that's high stakes credential that.
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): that is supposed to verify.
<kerri_lemoie> It's interesting to think about how issuing gets
integrated into platforms & practices.
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): Your skills for potentially
dangerous activity like a nurse then they're going to need to be
different levels of trust so we can't put everything in the in
the same bucket but I think it's really useful to think about
contextualizing these trust networks is networks of networks so
that you know and in formal credential.
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): Credential can be considered in
the same context is a different type of credential that has
different ramifications for the trust Network.
Kerri Lemoie: Well I definitely have no one else there and I'm
going to send it back to Julie and it's me what I've been hearing
a lot is about like contacts and about trust just as a brief
thought on that is that what the power of embed just 2.0 adoption
verify look at a standard is that all of these credentials 10.
Kerri Lemoie: Be put together weather there.
Kerri Lemoie: Formal non-formal community that they can be
inserted together by the learner they could be packed in this and
and verified like technically right in the same way which we
never had before which I think is the power here one of the
powers care anyway with a lining of provided to standardized
verification Julie is that when you close us up.
Don_Presant: Sure I do.
Julie_Keane: Yeah goad up an account on because I think all I
would do is just 2 plus 1 what you and Deb said and I mean just
building off of the conversation I do think that context is
everything and I think personally just getting away from an
either or proposition of high-stakes credentials versus kind of
peer-to-peer the technology can support all of these things as
long as the earner has control over them.
<phil> Are thinking about sharing selected fragment of one's
personal graph that the individual selects for the context of a
particular single assertion?
Don_Presant: Well I would say + 102 that I mean II came to this I
came to open badges through the doorway of a portfolio which
unfortunately it has become a very sort of siloed kind of thing
and I know Sarah she was very excited when I heard about open
Badges and I shared it with him and it certainly has transformed
the dialogues were having an epic and I think it really does come
down to the control the voice I guess.
Don_Presant: that the learner and so in other words do a bunch
of.
Don_Presant: Is in a wallet is that your voice how what control
do you have over that but how can you use those hardened piece of
pieces of evidence with a softer pieces of evidence to tell a
story about yourself that works for a particular situation
whether it's joining Community or trying to get a job and I think
that would be and there's big elements of technology in that they
have which has been touched on the in this discussion but it's
also a cultural thing almost.
Don_Presant: Stan other words can you can you.
<serge_ravet> Wallets just show the credentials received, while
those issued, like endorsements are just as important
Don_Presant: Express Yourself In This Way in an ongoing Dynamic
way it's work but I think it's very valuable work for people to
have fulfilling lives and just putting the putting the tools and
and the realization that the power is there for them to do that
and to support what they have with endorsements with hardened
pieces of evidence I think it's is really important and that's
part of what we're trying to get at in these various communities
and these various dialogues.
Don_Presant: I really learned a lot from today thanks very much.
Kerri Lemoie: Thank you guys for being here Thursday I see you
in a few Tina to keep it strictly at the end right again there
you go thank you.
Phil Barker: +1 To the "narrative credential" to weave together
these credential assertions in a data driven story?
Julie_Keane: Don't know no I just I agree with that.
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> thank you!
<phil> these are services that wallets need to have api's to ;-)
<doug_belshaw> :wave: cheers all
Kerri Lemoie: Yeah agreed I was I think we're going to have a
lot more a while it's going for started to hurt you open
recognitions I thank you very much for coming today it'd be great
if you could come back and towards the end of the year maybe
after of after epic and give us an update on all of this because
we love to do this discussion in alignment with the verify the
credentials so awesome thank you so much everybody.
Julie_Keane: Everyone happy Monday.
<don_presant> Thanks all!
Received on Wednesday, 12 July 2023 22:04:37 UTC