[MINUTES] W3C CCG Credentials CG Call - 2023-01-10

Thanks to Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week!

The transcript for the call is now available here:


Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio of the meeting is available at the following location:


W3C CCG Weekly Teleconference Transcript for 2023-01-10

  Mike Prorock, Kimberly Linson, Harrison Tang
  Our Robot Overlords
  Greg Bernstein, Kimberly Linson, Sharon Leu, Jeff O - HumanOS, 
  Harrison Tang, Ross Power, Andrew Whitehead, Steve Magennis, Anil 
  John, Erica Connell, TallTed // Ted Thibodeau (he/him) 
  (OpenLinkSw.com), Charles E. Lehner, Alex Tweeddale, Dmitri 
  Zagidulin, Manu Sporny, Paul Dietrich GS1, Simone Ravaoli, Kerri 
  Lemoie, Michael Herman, Ankur Banerjee, Margo Johnson, Kaliya 
  Young, Marty Reed, Sandy Aggarwal, Phil L (P1), Tim Bouma, David 
  I. Lehn, Kayode Ezike, Leo, Phil Long, Andy Miller, Will, Joe 
  Andrieu, Ryan Grant, Nate Otto, Andres, BrentZ, PL, Lucy Yang, 
  Brian Richter, Hans Pongratz, Naomi

Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Kimberly Linson:  Great all right well I am very excited about 
  today we have Sharon Leu and Kerri Lemoie coming to talk to us 
  about the plugfest many of you were involved in the plugfest I 
  was involved in the plugfest in fact it was for me having been 
  involved with the first one and the second one I can't even begin 
  to describe how much I learned through that process and in 
  addition to really deepening my.
Kimberly Linson:  Technology understanding it also really helped 
  me to see how this ecosystem is forming and I think that the the 
  plugfest concept and the way that we have been working through 
  these is really is really driving the work forward and so I'm 
  really excited to have them here today to talk about what 
  happened at this last plugfest but also I think maybe even more 
  importantly talk about what is coming and how we as a community 
  might support.
Kimberly Linson:   These efforts as we look towards.
Kimberly Linson:  The next versions of these plugfest so let me 
  just pull up.
Kimberly Linson:  The agenda to run through some of the 
  housekeeping definitely this is I think one of the things that I 
  loved about my participation in the plugfest was the 
  collaborative nature and spirit of the work that was being 
  conducted and so a quick reminder that we all follow the code of 
  ethics and professional conduct we definitely want anyone who is 
  interested to participate in these calls but definitely if you're 
  giving any substantial.
Kimberly Linson:  Substantive contributions.
Kimberly Linson:  You should be a member of the of the ccg with 
  default IPR agreements and the links to those can be found in the 
Kimberly Linson:  We use meeting minutes and call an audio 
  recording of the of the meetings we will take speakers in a queue 
  so if you're interested in asking a question or making a comment 
  please use Q+ to add yourself to the queue that's going to be my 
  job today is to kind of moderate that that is I know we're going 
  to have what I'm hoping is going to be really great conversation 
  today and that brings us to introductions and reintroductions.
Kimberly Linson:  Does anyone have would like.
Kimberly Linson:  To introduce themselves to the community.
Kimberly Linson:  Or is there anyone who has not had an 
  opportunity to join us for a while that would like to let us know 
  what they've been up to.
Alex_Tweeddale: Hey this is Alex Tweeddale here I haven't joined 
  one of these for a while and just wanted to say hey myself Ankur 
  and my colleague Rosa on because we heard there was a lot of 
  debate in the last ccg call around the proposed work link item on 
  did linked resources so if there's time after the presentation 
  today that topic we're also happy to answer any questions on 
Kimberly Linson:  Great I'm really glad you're here thanks Alex.
Kimberly Linson:  Would anyone else like to introduce themselves 
  or reintroduce themselves.
Ankur_Banerjee: Hi, this is Ankur Banerjee um also I think I have 
  not joined some of these for a while I’m one of Alex’s colleagues 
  there is a lot of really interesting discussions that we’ve 
  obviously had with a lot of people on the spec for did linked 
  resources I think there’s been a fair amount of back and forth 
  and contributions from many people we appreciate that and so yeah 
  very happy to chat that through if that’s on the agenda or 
  obviously contribute in any else way that I can I think I’ve seen 
  a lot of the faces on here perhaps in person as well so that’s 
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> Great to find you back here Ankur !
Kimberly Linson:  How about announcements and reminders anybody 
  have anything they want to share.
Kaliya Young:  Hey there we’ve got the APAC digital identity 
  unconference coming up March 1 to 3 if you have if you want to 
  come from all over the world we welcome you but particularly if 
  you have staff based in that region this is a great opportunity 
  to meet with other folks.
Kaliya Young:  Who are based in the region working on 
  decentralized and digital identity generally so we encourage you 
  to come and like similar to how we are do things at IIW were 
  really committed to accessibility so if you can't if our pricing 
  is a barrier please reach out we can work with you and.
Kaliya Young:   I'll also name.
Kaliya Young:  The thoughtful Biometrics Workshop got moved to 
  mid-march its March 13 to 17 and folks who are working on digital 
  identity and want to understand Biometrics better I'd invite you 
  and then regular iiw is April 18th to 20th and I'll put links for 
  all that in the chat thank you.
Kimberly Linson:  Right thank you Marty.
<kaliya_identitywoman> apacdigitalid.org
Kaliya Young: https://www.thoughtfulbiometrics.org/
Marty Reed:  So just two quick announcements one The Wanted Tech 
  CLR 2.0 spec with the ver that's verifiable credential compatible 
  was for was made public today so I sent the.
Kaliya Young: https://internetidentityworkshop.com/
Marty Reed:  Link out to their mailing list but I wanted to 
  mention it here because it's a big deal we've been working hard 
  on this multi assertion verifiable credential format and then 
  also Ian Davidson with smart resume put out a smart report 
  ecosystem map that is pretty cool and really insightful so just 
  those two notes.
Kimberly Linson:  Great and thank you I was going to ask if you 
  could put the link in but somebody already did it thank you I 
  think Manu I think you were on the queue.
Marty Reed: 
<manu_sporny> VC Status List 2021 transition to VCWG: 
Manu Sporny:  Yep thanks three announcements the first one is 
  just closing the loop on VC status list 2021 so that was a work 
  item that started in the credentials community group it has now 
  transitioned to the verifiable credentials working group as an 
  official Global standards track deliverable there is a link.
Manu Sporny:   In IRC sorry in the chat.
Manu Sporny:  Channel that just kind of links to where it lives 
  now so there's just a heads up the folks that were wondering 
  about it or using it in their implementations it is definitely 
  headed standards track now expected to be potentially done as a 
  global standard in 18 months hopefully sooner than that so we're 
  probably going to be really looking for implementations we have a 
  test Suite already we've got.
Manu Sporny:   Some implementations but.
Manu Sporny:  We'll be looking for more in about six months and 
  then we'll want to really nail everything down in about a year 
  which sounds like it's far off in the distance but it is 
  definitely not it'll come up on us pretty quickly so that's VC 
  status list the next item is that there is a verifiable 
  credentials working group face-to-face meeting that's happening 
  in February.
Manu Sporny:   February mid-February.
Manu Sporny:  I believe it's three days it's in Miami in the 
  United States you typically need to be a working group member to 
  attend those meetings but it is the chairs’ discretion to allow 
  observers and other people to attend those meetings so if you're 
  interested you know an email to the mailing list or an email to 
  the chairs you know we'll get you started there.
Manu Sporny:  The third announcement is that we are gathering 
  kind of signatures of support for the EDD DSA crypto suite to 
  move that into the verifiable credentials working group just like 
  we did for status list 2021 there are 20 plus issuing platforms 
  that participated in the plugfest that did implement it and.
Manu Sporny:   So we'll be reaching out to.
Manu Sporny:  Those folks in JFF plugfest too as well as other 
  implementers in the ecosystem to put your name down as you know 
  supportive of that crypto suite going standards track so look out 
  for that either this week or next week if you're an implementer 
  that's it.
Kimberly Linson:  Great thank you thank you all those are some 
  exciting announcements.
Kerri Lemoie: +1 @Manu
Kimberly Linson:  All right well I want us to have as much time 
  as we need for conversation around the kind of work that the 
  plugfest is pushing forward so it's my pleasure to turn the stage 
  over to Kerri and Sharon I feel like you know they don't need an 
  introduction because looking down the list of names everybody I 
  think is familiar with them but I just do want to say that I 
  think you know Kerry has been in.
Kimberly Linson:   In been thinking about credentials.
Kimberly Linson:  For a very long time and I know for me has been 
  just a source of education and knowledge and I really appreciate 
  what she does both for the VC edu working group but also the 
  collaboration that she's done for us and then also Sharon is the 
  executive what is it executive in Residence at jobs for the 
  future and I think is really a practical visionary.
Kimberly Linson:   Leader for how these.
Anil John: No introduction needed, because they are  "practical 
  visionary leaders"  << +1
Kimberly Linson:  Kinds of credentials are going to get used in 
  in the wild and so I think together and along with all the other 
  folks that I know are working behind the scenes to pull off these 
  plug fests are really driving this work forward and I'm so 
  excited to hear from them so the stage is all yours ladies.
<kerri_lemoie> Link to slides: 
<kerri_lemoie> Thanks, @kimberly!
Sharon Leu:  Thank you Kimberly is it possible for me to share 
  slides I'm going to try and we'll see and we'll see what happens 
  I have to change my system settings but while I do that I guess 
  one of the things that I wanted to say is I don't know I can't 
  don't remember my system password okay so thank you all for 
  joining us the goal here is for us to get to the discussion as 
  quickly as possible.
Sharon Leu:  We do have some slides that will give a general 
  overview which I think I'm not going to share my screen because I 
  can't change my settings the best and to get to some of the 
  discussion questions at the end do you mind going to the next 
  slide so by just way of a quick introduction jobs for the future 
  is sponsoring this series of plug fest with support from the 
  Walmart foundation and we are a not-for-profit organization that 
  really wants to.
Sharon Leu:   To see economic advancement happen for all people 
Sharon Leu:  If you go to the next slide please our key way of 
  one of the key questions that we have is how can credentials be 
  sort of the link that enables this to happen and I wanted to say 
  this upfront not just you know for the Shameless plug purposes 
  for jff but to give you a sense for the series of plugfest and 
  how they're really just very use case driven and so as we talk 
  about the observations that we’ll make and some of the questions 
  that we have.
Sharon Leu:   As we plan the next one just keep in mind.
Sharon Leu:  Our context for this is how can we be driving this 
  type of result and if you go to the next slide one of the ways 
  that we think that we can do this in the education ecosystem is 
  by creating what we call learning and employment records which 
  are a collection of credentials across a period of time and from 
  a variety of different issuers that individuals can mix and match 
  as they pursue opportunity also known in this community as a 
  verifiable presentation sort of hoping.
Sharon Leu:   Though that foundationally is based.
Sharon Leu:  On a series of verifiable credentials that 
  individuals can collect over time so if you go to the next slide 
  you'll see our key objectives not only for the second plugfest 
  but the entire series of plugfest is to really think about the 
  development of a functional learning employment record for 
  individuals and broadening participation in the verifiable 
  credentials Community by bringing in incumbent education and 
  Workforce Solution providers who don't necessarily.
Sharon Leu:   Understand or participate.
Sharon Leu:  In this and hence create a lot of very close 
  ecosystems for different types of education and Workforce related 
  records but as well bring some of these Solutions some of you who 
  have a lot of experience working with verifiable credentials in 
  some of these interoperable data models to a return feedback to 
  some of the education standards development processes so if you 
  look at the next slide it's just our general road map to where we 
  were and where we're going we started these.
Sharon Leu:   Off in June.
Sharon Leu:  With a very simple exercise I think Marty called it 
  our hello world exercise where the request was display a 
  functioning verifiable credential in a digital wallet we moved in 
  November and this is what we'll be talking about today to issuing 
  verifiable credentials into wallets and coming this year will 
  want to talk about export and presentation the details of it we 
  can discuss later on in this presentation timeline is hopefully.
Sharon Leu:   In this next month or so.
Sharon Leu:  I guess beginning with today's call beginning to 
  collect feedback on what are some of the key areas that we can be 
  using as our technical demonstration and bringing in the correct 
  partners for work beginning in the first quarter so I don't know 
  Kerri do you want to take it over and start talking about some of 
  our sort of technical requirements and some things that we did.
Kerri Lemoie:  Hi everyone um on slide 7 we are we talk about the 
  approach that we took and the requirement was for issuers to be 
  able to issue to two wallets and for if you're there issue are 
  issuing credentials and if their wallets to be able to accept 
  verifiable credentials from two different issuers and we we the 
  timing for this actually coincided through a lot of effort went 
  to Tech and then.
Kerri Lemoie:   The members of the working group with their 
  candidate final release.
Kerri Lemoie:  Of open badges 3.0 so in plugfest one where we 
  were sort of using a temporary version that we set up for the 
  plugfest for the plugfest two we’re actually able to use open 
  badges 3.0 and so we required a display of a the fields you see 
  on the sides and that they verifiable according to the open 
  Badge’s schema and that the issuers is a while to be able to 
  demonstrate that to us through a demonstration like a video 
Kerri Lemoie:  I think that does that cover it Sharon you think 
  I'm missing anything there.
Sharon Leu:  Nope that's right would you get to the next slide 
  please okay.
Kerri Lemoie:  Yes I will yes oh sorry one other thing I didn't 
  mention this Sharon I'm sorry is that we did this through a we 
  require three different protocols that we were did this through 
  either VC API also using CHAPI in some cases did comm and OIDC so 
  issuers as well as how to use one of those three protocols which 
  are the three protocols.
Sharon Leu:  That's right so I guess let's go to the next Slide 
  the one thing I said that I will say is we did in doing all of 
  these require that did authentication happen in some capacity or 
  another and so overall we had quite a lot of interest here is 
  sort of just the overlay of who participated and who selected how 
  many people selected which protocols we were not prescriptive 
  will allowed individuals to self-select and in fact there are a 
  number of people who selected.
Sharon Leu:  To like who attempted.
Sharon Leu:  Multiple protocols as well as participants in this 
  community who jumped in without officially joining our cohort and 
  letting us know which we thought was really exciting okay Kerri 
  do you want to review some of other people's slides that show 
  some great results.
Kerri Lemoie:  Sure if you go to slide 11 and Manu’s here who 
  actually we took this side from Manu’s presentation so Manu feel 
  free to jump in and fill in any gaps where I'm leaving out with 
  quite a few of our participants opted to use CHAPI with VC API 
  which we found to be excellent because it made it really easy for 
  new issuers and new wallets to get on board many of.
Kerri Lemoie:   Them using at the playground that a digital 
  promise set up .
Kerri Lemoie:  At playground.chapi.io and you see from the slide 
  that there were 81 different combinations that are demonstrated 
  some which were you hit the requirements of your to issuers to 
  wallets but then some who went well beyond that you can see that 
  several when hit almost all of the wallets right I ran different 
  students went through almost all I think all of the wallets here 
  so we had some that also I did of course they all did auth that 
  was required.
Kerri Lemoie:   So they did that over chapi and then.
Kerri Lemoie:  And then several implemented their issuers with 
  chapi to with the playground and are still are still there I 
  believe Manu do you want to fill in any gaps there that I left.
Manu Sporny:  No that that was great I think one one thing to 
  note is we're probably going to well it depending on what the 
  goals are for the next plugfest we're probably going to provide 
  the same kind of infrastructure if possible and so the hope is to 
  kind of build on the people that are already in there one of the 
  really neat things that has happened after the plugfest is that 
  all these issuers are still in the chapi playgound.
Manu Sporny:  Meaning like you can still use them to do issuance 
  and we think that's a really good kind of side effect of the 
  plugfest is that it got all these other issuing platforms kind of 
  there on a more permanent basis so that you can switch between 
  different credentials the hope is that you know we’ll be able to 
  do that across different Industries like you know there are a lot 
  of education-based issuers there right now along with the the 
  other ones that have existed there.
Manu Sporny:   From like the SVIP program.
Manu Sporny:  But you know as we add new types of credentials 
  like there's that movie take a credential and and maybe some 
  other Workforce skills credentials all those other issuers should 
  be able to continue to kind of issue you know using the the 
  playground so it feels like it could potentially grow into a 
  really good kind of broad Community tool that can be used across 
  Market verticals that's it.
Kerri Lemoie:  Yeah it's great thank you manu um one thing we did 
  mention at the beginning was that we provide provided a model to 
  sort of example open badge that folks could use and and on the 
  playground is that example badge that can be issued so many of 
  you could go and try that right now actually.
Kerri Lemoie:   Next slide please um our next group was the OIDC 
  group which was our second largest group and what we loved about 
  this group was that they all work together very closely in a 
  similar way as the chapi folks did issuing to each other and and 
  figure out how to use oidcwith with verifiable credentials and 
  open badges which are doesn't presented its own challenges and 
  that they overcame and were able to demonstrate this too.
Kerri Lemoie:   Is there anybody here from the OIDC Group that 
  would like to.
Kerri Lemoie:  Speak to that.
Kerri Lemoie:  I would call on David Chadwick because he was one 
  of our.
Kerri Lemoie:  Leaders in this group I don't see him on here 
Kerri Lemoie:  Sharon do you have anything else to add about OIDC 
  or Dmitri and Simone I should also call and who are co-chairs at 
  VC Edu who are instrumental in helping all of this happen.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Decided that especially with.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  OIDC he was very helpful to the development of 
  the DC S 0 because as always imagined limitations and actual 
  tests running it highlights rough Corners that need to be sanded 
  off so I think the oh I also see Simone is on the queue so yeah 
  just gonna say that it was very helpful to respect that.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): I think there is also a set of 
  interesting positive externalities that have happened as a result 
  of the plugfest one being the interesting collaboration across 
  the standard development organizations like w3c and one ed tech 
  or other players in the ecosystem nonspecifically in the 
  education domain that Leverage The tooling made available by the.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU):  the VC API team.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): And a few others that.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): We’re really encouraging in terms of 
  moving forward with this process and that really spoke to the 
  function of this plugfest as a bridge in building out this very 
  diverse ecosystem that we're all working into back to you Kerri.
Kerri Lemoie: 
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you Simone exactly the last group that we 
  have is the didcomm Group which was the smallest of the groups 
  and I'm going to actually put a link copy and paste that link to 
  that presentation that is there on that page you may find this 
  really interesting to look at if you are student didcomm because 
  this was really one of the first times didcomm was being used in 
  this way so this group had a lot of hurdles but I think they 
  accomplished quite a bit and work together to.
Kerri Lemoie:   To demonstrate what is needed like what more is 
  needed to issue.
Kerri Lemoie:  Verifiable credentials and I think you might find 
  this presentation really useful in learning more about what work 
  can be done and what help this community needs to move this 
  forward and we're really grateful for that group its work.
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> a few more "positive externalities" in 
  this short write-up 
Sharon Leu:  Okay so I know that there's probably some questions 
  but I kind of want to power through to like where we can have 
  some sort of moderated discussion and I'll take that off by just 
  giving some of the observations that I made as a result of this 
  and this these I'm sure that there are broader sort of 
  observations about you know technology and like standards 
  development for example some of the ones that Simone mentions but 
  these go back to did I did you know our investment accomplish the 
  jff goals right.
Sharon Leu:   And so I you know some of these observations.
Sharon Leu:  Were interesting but sort of lead us to questions 
  for the next time and one of the surprising observation I don't 
  know why I thought this was surprising maybe I'm just too cynical 
  about human nature but you know a lot of this broad technical 
  interoperability was only possible because of Human Relationships 
  and I want to give a shout out shout out especially to this 
  community a lot of the education Workforce incumbents really did 
  benefit from the generosity of your time and your expertise this 
Sharon Leu:   Using VC's is not something.
Sharon Leu:  That is sort of native technical ability for a lot 
  of these incumbents and I think they learned a lot from you and 
  as a result of that the education stakeholders like I think 
  students and Learners and workers really do and will benefit from 
  this in the long run and another I think one of the observations 
  about our accomplishments is that the standards development work 
  really does require broad participation it has I think it was a 
  little bit challenging to work with you know the first.
Sharon Leu:   Of some verifiable.
Sharon Leu:  Credentials native education standards and there are 
  a number of challenges because different standards organizations 
  have different sort of work processes and cultures and varying 
  degrees of openness to feedback and issues but it was an 
  interesting collaboration I think between the group that worked 
  on the one Ed Tech spec there their I think willingness to accept 
  feedback from this community who has a lot of experience working 
  with verifiable credentials think it's really strengthened the 
  obv three.
Sharon Leu:   Standard and so I’m.
Sharon Leu:  Encouraged by I think some of the results that will 
  happen as a result of that.
Kerri Lemoie: +1 - Thank you for your help with Open Badges 3.0
Sharon Leu:  I think that in sort of acknowledging some of the 
  challenges they're like one of the most obvious ones is based on 
  how used all the slides being laid out that the interoperability 
  really occurred within protocol specific groups and even for 
  example within some of the groups there was further divisions 
  that you'd probably saw notice that the oidc group was divided 
  based on proof methods and you know there is a lot of discussion 
  I think that doesn't mean that we are permanently stuck into 
Sharon Leu:   Different slides on a deck but I think that there's 
Sharon Leu:  A challenge something additional to think about and 
  what Kerri mentioned about the third group our didcomm group I 
  think what we really showed was that one of the challenges is the 
  development of Community Resources and the more people that 
  participate in these types of activities the more resources like 
  Registries and playgrounds exist and can enable greater amounts 
  of interoperability.
Sharon Leu:   I don't know Kerri do you have some.
Sharon Leu:  Thoughts on that.
Kerri Lemoie:  Yeah actually I just keep myself up but I'll take 
  myself out in a second specifically going back to the community’s 
  help with open badges 3.0 and the work at one edtech open Badges 
  and and comprehensive learning record are new to verifiable 
  credentials initially they were I mean they are date they are 
  linked data and but mostly they've been hosted data sets never 
  used in this way before and it's introduced.
Kerri Lemoie:   All sorts of things that were never considered 
  before by the working groups.
Kerri Lemoie:  One of the challenges we encountered for instance 
  was the context file changed while while we were working while 
  people are trying to issue did the wallets and it caused a host 
  of problems and it took a lot of work to track that down and big 
  thanks to you know the folks at digital bazaar who helped to like 
  track that down and spend hours and a lot of money really trying 
  to figure that out but in the long run this became so useful to 
  the community at large and.
Kerri Lemoie:   To those who will be issuing these credentials so 
  yeah shout out to like open.
Kerri Lemoie:  Community development and working together in the 
  open like that really thank you.
Sharon Leu:  Were there other comments or questions in the queue.
Manu Sporny:  Is Simone is an old hand.
Kimberly Linson:  I think so.
Manu Sporny:  Maybe okay yeah it's so challenges I think one of 
  the challenges is this was a good I mean this is like this is a 
  good challenge right it's like you know what's your what's your 
  greatest weakness we had a lot of people participate in the 
  plugfest like way more than I think many of us were well I'll say 
  way more than I was expecting which was great but the challenge 
  there was communication.
Manu Sporny:  I think the the channels that were set up by jff 
  like the slack channels for communication we're really good but I 
  think I noticed there was a lot of kind of one-on-one 
  communication between implementers that happened which was great 
  like if you have you know it's great if you have only like you 
  know like a an organization or is only trying to communicate with 
  like two or three or four organizations but we had a huge end by 
  end you no problem going on there and we and I think what we what 
Manu Sporny:   We realized at least our organization is that.
Manu Sporny:  There were some pieces of critical documentation 
  that were just not there and as a result we had you know program 
  managers and Engineers having to effectively repeat themselves 
  over and over and over again on 1 to 1 calls and so we don't even 
  we don't quite know how to address that in plugfest three other 
  than maybe having better documentation ready earlier on and then 
  that of course would require kind of the requirements of.
Manu Sporny:   Exactly what are we trying to attempt in plugfest 
Manu Sporny:  To be more clearly delineated early early in the 
  process so I think that that was you know there was a I think 
  there was a bit I mean communication I think was the largest 
  challenge right I mean the technical stuff was hard enough by 
  itself but just keeping that many organizations kind of synced up 
  and moving forward turned out to be a challenge in as Kerri said 
  Community tooling was vitally important to basically community.
Manu Sporny:   Tooling and Community documentation was just 
Manu Sporny:  To kind of keeping everything together that's it.
<kerri_lemoie> One of the resources we used for Plugfest 2: 
Marty Reed:  Yeah I just want to say I really appreciated the 
  openness of collaboration between all the participants I never 
  really seen that level of openness I think it goes to credit you 
  know jff and and the collaboration with VC edu but nobody was 
  playing I got a secret everybody was trying to get real 
  Integrations done and and that was just really amazing.
Marty Reed:  Plugfest three even though a number of us are 
  competitors in one way or another that level of openness got a 
  lot more done a lot faster than it would ever get done in a in a 
  pure standards-based collaboration in my opinion.
Kerri Lemoie: +1 Marty
Kimberly Linson:  Thank you anyone else with questions.
Kimberly Linson:  All right Sharon.
<manu_sporny> Yeah, the JFF plugfest was way friendlier than what 
  some standards engagements have turned into.
Sharon Leu:  Okay so here's like the part where we would love 
  your feedback which is in the context of plugfest 3 what should 
  we do next and actually you know I think too it's something you 
  said Manu like significantly more people were interested in 
  plugfest two than I thought you know would be interested in it 
  and so I'm actually curious because I don't know whether the 
  increased difficulty I guess of.
Sharon Leu:   Doing the next plugfest will will.
Sharon Leu:  Increase interest of decrease interest or whether 
  you know I just have no idea so this is actually a wild-card for 
  us as far as planning is concerned as well so essentially we have 
  a set of draft objectives and if you go to the next slide you can 
  see what some of them are these are all for discussion purposes 
  we're not like tied to any of them except maybe the first one 
  which is like we've thought about you know issuing holding 
  credentials and now I think the third step for us is thinking 
  about that third leg.
Sharon Leu:   Of the data model.
<manu_sporny> huge +1 to this draft objective
Sharon Leu:  Which is the verification and it like needs to be 
  for in my mind for us to be successful more than just a bunch of 
  people who can click the verify button run it and get the green 
  check mark because that's somewhat meaningless in the grand 
  scheme of like why do verifiable credentials need to even exist 
  and why digital credentials right so part of these you know 
  objectives as we're thinking about it is demonstrating that the 
  credentials can be shared outside of a credential issue.
Sharon Leu:   While its storage environment so that they have 
  some kind of value in a.
<manu_sporny> lol... love "Let's take these credentials to the 
Sharon Leu:  Marketplace external to the existence of the 
  credential and this is really important especially in education 
  and Workforce ecosystem not only because of some of the things I 
  mentioned earlier about how a lot of intuition is around tying 
  the existence of subdegree credentials and using skills based 
  hiring practices a student Gaged Talent as a means of promoting 
  equity in the marketplace but also thinking about how much of a 
  cottage industry education.
Sharon Leu:   Tends to be on the creating and issuing credential 
  side rather on than the using them.
Sharon Leu:  As proper signals of talent side and that leads to 
  sort of the second thought that we have on this idea of 
  verification which is like that in order to demonstrate the 
  utility of this kind of open ecosystem versus a system that is a 
  little bit more closed which is the default in our space is 
  through the use of live credentials in a production environment 
  and so I guess depending on what is the specific thing that we 
  are going to demonstrate interoperability against like.
Sharon Leu:  Which part of that sort of value changes 
  verification chain I think finding like a real credential that's 
  currently being issued to real people and the hoping to promote 
  its utility somehow I think is a really interesting way to not 
  only show the technical potential of verifiable credentials but 
  also to demonstrate value for this ecosystem so those are kind of 
  the initial thoughts that we have but if you sort of .
Sharon Leu:   That we have but if.
Sharon Leu:  Look at the next slide some of the things that we 
  would love to hear your feedback feedback on in addition to the 
  objectives is you know how then should we expand participation 
  and how can we do this strategically I think you know if we think 
  about like 20 people participated in plugfest 2 and 40 in 3 like 
  do we try to do go for the geometric and say like 80 people 
  should participate I mean that seems like way out of control 
  right but like more importantly is like who are the key 
  stakeholders in that last part the verifying.
Sharon Leu:   Part that we need to be engaging with or 
  alternatively how can we.
Sharon Leu:  Better align with goals of existing efforts to do 
  similar things and by similar things I do mean like similar 
  technical exercises but also credential portability exercises as 
  well and then also as we think about that like what should we be 
  demonstrating specifically like what's a reasonable ask that all 
  of you on this phone call can do together in with you know some 
  Community Resources over a two to three month period rather than.
Sharon Leu:   Than biting off such a big chunk that it would take 
  ages and ages and ages.
Sharon Leu:  Just to complete so you know then of course thinking 
  about the community resources that jff needs to invest in in 
  order to enable this to happen so I think that there are people 
  in the queue that have comments and I would love to hear all the 
Kimberly Linson:  Yes me too Anil I'm going to give the floor to 
  you first.
Anil John:  Thank you and happy New Year everyone and obviously a 
  huge fan of the work that you guys are doing here and we are 
  absolutely good lovers and work with what you are doing in the 
  work that we're doing it as SVIP for both trade and immigration 
  credentials um regarding the the verification piece I think the 
  reality of our credential ecosystem is it these credentials are 
  never used in isolation they're used in.
Anil John:   Combination with one of these things and the end 
Anil John:  Of interoperability is not just to demonstrate 
  interoperability but it is to demonstrate that I am a person who 
  is basically encountering a counterparty with whom I need to 
  conduct a business that requires me to provide multiple 
  attestation / credentials to them that may be coming from a 
  variety of different things a classic case here for you know for 
  the education credential is directly tied into the work that.
Anil John:   We are doing.
Anil John:  Particularly with USCIS I am a immigrant to the US 
  who is applying for a job in the US that typically in the paper 
  World requires them to provide a permanent resident card or an 
  employment authorization document and education credentials I 
  guess my question to Sharon in general is of when you talk about 
  verification what is the step next to that do you.
Anil John:   When do you sort of.
Anil John:  Get to a point where we are actually presenting 
  multiple credentials in a presentation and verifying them rather 
  than one and done because it feels like the one-and-done tends to 
  be encouraging the siloing of what is going on right now.
Sharon Leu:  I think you make an excellent point and I see that 
  Dmitri and Kerri have queued themselves so I feel like they might 
  have comments on this that are way more interesting than what I 
  have to say.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Sure so awesome I want to say thank you to 
  Anil for mentioning the multiple credentials thing that sort of 
  changes what I was going to propose so a couple of things one is 
  I Sharon I absolutely agree that.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  JFF is sort of at a cross not at the 
  crossroads but has to balance the low level.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Feature Matrix kind of interoperability with 
  the higher level our end goal is to encourage the growth of the 
  ecosystem how do we demonstrate it with larger strategic partners 
  and that's a much harder question I don't have any thoughts on 
  that but I do want to say a couple things about the feature 
  Matrix kind of comparison like jff 1 and 2 was.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Or two main things one is verification versus 
  something else and then the second thing is I want to.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Talk about.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  How we can make checking for verification 
  inoperability interesting with regards to verification versus 
  something else so my initial racialism initial proposal what was 
  going to say that verification by itself is not that interesting 
  like Sharon said just displaying a green check mark is not that 
  challenging and in a sense we've already tested for it in 
  unofficially in jff plugfest 1.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   And so I was going to.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Point out the other of the three pillars of 
  the credential ecosystems like issuing wallet and verifying.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  I was going to pose I was going to point out 
  an unofficial one which is.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Being able to migrate wallets one of the key 
  things that I think a lot of us would agree that in our goal in 
  preventing lock in.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  One of the things that we need to make sure is 
  that a user having loaded credentials into wallet is able to 
  migrate to another wallet from another vendor and so one of the 
  possibilities for like a smaller plugfest would be can I migrate 
  this set of credentials from one mode to another whether it's 
  because the wallet Implement standard API that allows another 
  wallet to query credentials from and or.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Because wallet would implement a standard.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Backup standard wallet export container and I 
  want to give a shout out to Sam carne and the iiw session on 
  standardizing an encrypted while would export container so let's 
  thing one.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Good consider one of the sub topics or one of 
  the focuses of the smaller plugfest would be wallet migration so 
  thing two if if the next plugfest should focus on verification 
  there's a couple things we need we can do to make it interesting 
  and challenging one is.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  I 100 percent agree with what Anil said.
<manu_sporny> I like the "present multiple credentials" 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Going through the full cycle of the verifier 
  requesting multiple credentials and therefore I'm demonstrating 
  the book The the you wallet enables the user to pick those 
  credentials submit and then the verifier would have to verify 
  both the presentation and the individual credentials in that 
  bundle so that's thing number one multiple credentials number two 
  is I think we can.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Demonstrate not just the green check mark but 
  also .
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The red error sign meaning we also want to 
  demonstrate that the verifier Rejects.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Invalid signatures.
<anil_john_[us/dhs/svip]> I think we as an ecosystem need to help 
  solve the actual problem people have with presentation -- Real 
  world presentation is multiple credentials from multiple 
  different issuers -- before going into things that are of 
  interest only to developers.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Re revoked credentials revoked Keys possibly 
  and and all sorts of other error conditions so think between 
  those two the requesting multiple credentials protocol being able 
  to modify bundles and individual sorry being able to verify 
  bundles and individual credentials and demonstrating the 
  rejection of.
Marty Reed: +1 Present multiple credentials
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Various error conditions I think taking taken 
  as a group that could be a nice challenging plugfest thank you.
Kimberly Linson:  Thanks Dmitri Kerri.
<manu_sporny> CHAPI Playground already has a permanent resident 
  card credential issued by the govt. of Utopia. :)
<manu_sporny> that plus an EDU credential is a possibility.
Kerri Lemoie:  Yeah I think I am I think in this in this group we 
  think about verification as Dmitri just described it which is you 
  know the the actual standard verification I do the required 
  elements meet that but I think over the years where we've learned 
  through the open badges Community Education VCs is that there is 
  this underlying semantic interoperability that's needed so we may 
  want to think Beyond.
Kerri Lemoie:   Verification but think about the needs of the 
  relying third.
Kerri Lemoie:  Parties there are a lot of vocabularies that are 
  in place that our linked data that can help with this and I think 
  we might want to get ahead of that as we start looking into 
  plugfest 3 you know what those will be so for instance in 
  plugfest 2 we required some elements for open Badges and that 
  plugfest that aren't required as part of open badges 2.0 and 3.0 
  because we wanted to make sure that understandability is there a 
  namingly like issuer name.
Kerri Lemoie:   And issuer logo but the payloads for Education 
  data education credentials.
Kerri Lemoie:  Can be pretty critical to adoption and to 
  understanding so that something to for us to think ahead to 
  consider Rich skill skill descriptors credential engine and then 
  they're their standards they reference competencies and the 
  transparency description language so we can conclude that we can 
  get that semantic understandability interoperability as well as 
  part of this.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): So reflecting on the assumption that 
  verification could be the possible phase 3 and what are the 
  stakeholders that we're missing so if we really want this 
  credential to take the streets so in the education space I mean 
  the chiasm between education and work I mean you have two 
  Pathways right for this credentials to become opportunities one 
  is the employability pathways and the other one is the enrollment 
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU):  so on the employability pathways to 
  test the.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Verification we would need employer 
  right on the enrollment Pathways maybe we could play with what 
  Anil is already done you know with the immigration services I 
  mean international Student mobility into the u.s. is a big thing 
  you were required to present your prior learning credentials to 
  the government to get you know an I-20 or a Visa and I know that 
  that is a use case that it's already been worked on.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU):  on in as in dsv AP challenge.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): I wonder if we could reuse leverage 
  some of the pre-existing interop there along that enrollment 
  Pathways where one of these one of the consumer the verifier 
  would be I guess the government.
Kimberly Linson:  Thank you Nate.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  I think Phil is up next.
Kimberly Linson:  Well thanks Dmitri I missed him entirely.
<marty_reed> in the interest of time, I would challenge the error 
  conditions/revocation are ready for prime time and while I am 
  100% supportive of pushing the envelope I think that would push a 
  hello world a bit far.
PL: Can you hear me okay so I think my comments are aligned with 
  and to some extent with both Dmitri and Simone have just 
  mentioned and that is the that in fact verifiers that perhaps 
  matter the most or the are the employers for whom these 
  credentials are intended to provide richer value added 
  information to the people who are possessing.
PL:  them for those individual.
<anil_john_[us/dhs/svip]> For the record, when Sharon was at Dept 
  of Ed -- w/in .gov, we fully understood the value of joint 
  presentation of immigration and edu credentials  for employment 
  purposes :-)
PL: Relying parties to make judgments about their the 
  predictability of validity of those individuals adding value to 
  their companies or whatever positions these things are are being 
  applied being used to apply for and so the question that comes to 
  mind to me is I second Dmitri's comment that we need to get the 
  demonstration of of revoked credentials in the like because 
  that's adding another layer Beyond just verification.
PL:  on the first instance that adds a.
<dmitri_zagidulin> @Marty - would you say that about all 
  validation errors, or just some of them? For example, would it 
  not be reasonable to expect to reject an invalid signature?
<sharon_leu> @Anil, I remember that fondly!
PL: Little bit of nuance and in greater Comfort to the relying 
  party that a credential received is of is is valid and if it is 
  in fact revoked there is Meaningful information back to them 
  about that revocation but secondly the we haven't heard from or 
  engaged particularly well with the consumers of this environment 
  and that would be the employers themselves or the its systems in 
  the like that are.
PL:  currently the place where.
<marty_reed> @Dmitri - I agree, some conditions are ready but 
  there are many that are not.
<dmitri_zagidulin> agreed, yeah
PL: Much of the value of presenting credentials of the existing 
  forms end up being evaluated in this and can and the decisions 
  made about the status of what happens to that person next and so 
  somehow or other we have to bring in if not for no other reason 
  to be the person that is the relying party group those 
  individuals that are hiring managers that are part of Sherm and 
  doing that for initial review and or.
PL:  those that are part of the systems that are acting as 
PL: Intermediaries in front of job applications and requests 
  posted for employment so I think that's a community that we 
  haven't reached out to and somehow or other we have to bring them 
  in thanks.
<marty_reed> Just thinking about barriers to 
Kimberly Linson:  Thanks Phil all right Nate.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): I don't think so yes excellent work with 
  these plugfest so I think that the future is bright for them I 
  would not be surprised if the participation grows even as the 
  difficulty of completing the tasks in successive steps that we’re 
  incrementing on gets more difficult Anil raises a great point on 
  the cross verification of multiple different credentials and in 
  this space we're talking about LER learner employment record 
Nate_Otto_(he/him):  credentials what we're looking to build as.
<naomi> @Sharon, @Anil - I understand that one of the upcoming 
  conversations of the NEW Velocity Advisory Board may specifically 
  address international mobility... I can keep you informed.
<anil_john_[us/dhs/svip]> Thank you @Naomi
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> to P1 ... in bringing in HR / ATS ... 
  might Velocity Network play a role ?
Nate_Otto_(he/him): An ecosystem where Learners workers can show 
  up to a new work opportunity and then be welcomed there 
  understood in terms of the skills and certifications that they 
  hold you know a lot of this business logic is inside the verifier 
  app and is subsequent to that the basic green checkmark type 
  verification and it means interpreting a bunch of things from the 
  credentials into that local context of the verifier Phil 
  mentioned the gold standard in this space for the you know the 
  USCS credentials and for these LER credentials is that.
Nate_Otto_(he/him):  the holder gets a job because they had the 
  right qualifications and so the worst outcome is if the 
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Shareholder has this cool shiny verifiable 
  credential that we tell them is so interoperable and that 
  employer can't even understand it can't even get to the green 
  checkmark and let alone can't even get beyond that OB and CLR are 
  specs that mostly operate at the schema level in the VC Tech 
  stack so they help issuers have a common way to describe a 
  particular achievement or a skill within a certification but the 
  business value in the space of like what it takes to actually get 
  to offering a.
Nate_Otto_(he/him):  a job to the holder depends on the trust 
  models that aren't very binary at all you've got to trust a 
<anil_john_[us/dhs/svip]> I have an upcoming conversation with 
  the EU/EC folks coming up on this topic as well -- An EU Citizen 
  w/ an EUDI Wallet should be able to use that wallet at a USCIS 
  issuer get immigration creds for them live and work in the US << 
  How do we make that happen?
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Issuer to recognize a certain skill from its 
  source domain maybe understand how it crosswalks to a certain 
  different skill definition in the verifier’s target domain some 
  kind of scalar variable thing they're figuring out how to model 
  requirements that might match up against these skills or 
  achievement credentials is actually a lot more tricky than just 
  say asking for a particular credential type like we've seen in a 
  lot of the early examples elsewhere in this next stage so in this 
Nate_Otto_(he/him):  you know what's the next most valuable.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Step for the type of the plugfest upper type 
  context to resolve and probably we recognize that there is a lot 
  of work a lot of territory to cover and these plug fests work 
  best when they operate in an incremental way so I think there's a 
  strong case that the next increment is that the presentation to 
  the verifier happens and we just get to that green check mark 
  even if we know there's a whole lot of work after that sorry for 
  taking so long.
Kimberly Linson:  Thanks Nate that was helpful Manu.
Marty Reed: +1 Nate
<dmitri_zagidulin> @Anil - highly agree, the OBv3/CLR interop 
  with the EU emerging standards is definitely a conversation we 
  need to have as a community
<smagennis> @Nate, post checkmark work is complex, but at least 
  it is well understood by verifier
<kaliya_identitywoman> I mean you could have a "level 1" interop 
  with the green check mark  - and a level two goes beyond that.
Manu Sporny:  Yeah a huge plus 1 to what Nate has been saying as 
  well as you know Dmitri and Phil and you know the rest of the 
  folks that that chimed in I'm wondering if we should ask the 
  people that are funding this work to give us a concrete value add 
  so that they can justify why they're spending this money right so 
  I mean in that I think what that ends up looking like is you know 
  Walmart is funding this stuff largely they are.
Manu Sporny:   Doing it you know for reasons to.
<pl> @Simone potentially yes.  I'm cognizant that decisions made 
  based on the review of credentials are made by people and we need 
  those who make those decisions involved - initially socializing 
  them to this space; but especially for their reactions to 
  information presented and if it adds value to their process.
Dmitri Zagidulin: @Kaliya: +1 to that, checking by interop levels 
  might be helpful
Manu Sporny:  Improve it you know partially the way they operate 
  I mean I know that's the Walmart foundation and they have bigger 
  bigger thing but you know we need to get the business value like 
  actual value that's that's achieved and like Phil was saying you 
  know the I think the people that are not here right now 
  unfortunately are like the HR systems that would be pulling this 
  stuff in so I'm like I don't know if it's possible but having an 
  HR System.
Manu Sporny:   Be Central to the next plugfest or a.
<kaliya_identitywoman> The are all hanging out in Velocity 
  network - yes?
Manu Sporny:  Future one would be great having employers that are 
  willing to modify their operations as a result of this if we can 
  find a good Target credential or set of credentials would be 
  beneficial and as Nate said you know LERs are really complex 
  things I'm wondering if we what's the minimum viable set of 
  credentials that provide business value to the point that someone 
  would actually end up meaning meaning.
Manu Sporny:   An employer or an HR company.
<nate_otto_(he/him)> Recruiting an HR system would be cool, but 
  we won't wait around until one of those or LinkedIn shows up to 
  the table. We have the potential to build MVPs that are killer 
  apps at micro scale prior to when we achieve the "gold standard" 
  use cases.
Manu Sporny:  Would end up making this a part of their process so 
  I know that's a really big challenging thing to do but I think to 
  date the plugfest have really focused on Technical interop and 
  Technical challenges and we can continue to do that and I don't 
  doubt that we will do well in doing that right we'll pick good 
  bite size pieces that we can do but none of this really matters 
  unless we get the business challenge you know achieved.
<anil_john_[us/dhs/svip]> I am trying to find the right folks @ 
<naomi> @Kaliya - we have the HR tech solutions for 30% of large 
  employers in Velocity Network (and other players/tools for small 
  employers), but lg employers will give critical mass
Manu Sporny:  Which is creating value for both the people that 
  hold these credentials in the the HR systems and the employers 
  that consume the credentials you know I feel like the longer we 
  stay away from having those participants as a central part of the 
  plugfest the more of kind of navel-gazing exercise this is right 
  I mean so so I know that's really hard to do like all of us are 
  trying to do that right.
Manu Sporny:   But I think we need to figure out if what.
Manu Sporny:  We're doing here are like technical plugfest 
  challenges or we're also trying to solve the business ecosystem 
  challenge which is really the thing that drives money and you 
  know cash flow to make these ecosystems better that’s it.
Kimberly Linson:  That's a really good sort of final thought this 
  has been an incredible discussion I'm feeling very.
Kimberly Linson:  The reality of this for me today is that I'm 
  sitting in the office of a professional licensure board and they 
  are I'm sitting today with the people whose job it is to verify 
  multiple credentials in order to determine whether or not someone 
  is qualified for a professional license and I can tell you from 
  looking at their faces and listening to this conversation that 
  we're having these this is a real problem that we are trying.
Kimberly Linson:   To solve.
<sharon_leu> This isn't the last time we will engage about this, 
  so please join us at upcoming vc-edu calls (Mon) or reach out, 
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> @Anil - I would love to support that 
  EU/EC conversation if needed, connecting my dots. Also, the same 
  might happen with Canada ... MyCreds is ready to issue  VCs in 
  production (and was part of  PF2 through MATTR)
Kimberly Linson:  This is cumbersome work that they have to do 
  manually that we are offering them a better solution for and I'm 
  so excited to be a part of this community and what we're doing so 
  we are at time and so I'm going to to cut us off here and and 
  I'll Echo what Sharon said we will continue to engage in talk 
  about this there's a lot more conversation to be had I would 
  invite you all to join the vc edu calls on Monday Alex I’m sorry 
  we didn’t have a chance .
<pl> @anil - the control of the relying part in the EU context, 
  up to and including their ability to erase a wallet's contents 
  including the government's ability to erase their digital 
  identity is quite concerning.
<sharon_leu> Thanks!
Kimberly Linson:  To talk about your proposed work item and some 
  of the conversation that we had last week I'd encourage you to 
  drop a note on the list and in the email and we can maybe get a 
  discussion started there and otherwise thank you all I hope you 
  all have a great week and we will see you next week thanks 
<naomi> Thank you!
<econnell> thanks!
Kimberly Linson:  I just need for once everybody drops off then I 
  can stop the recording.
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> This chat was exploding ! :-)

Received on Wednesday, 11 January 2023 10:06:31 UTC