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[MINUTES] W3C CCG Credentials CG Call - 2022-11-29

From: CCG Minutes Bot <minutes@w3c-ccg.org>
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 11:44:27 +0000
Message-ID: <E1p0LVn-0041nx-2g@mimas.w3.org>
Thanks to Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week!

The transcript for the call is now available here:


Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio of the meeting is available at the following location:


W3C CCG Weekly Teleconference Transcript for 2022-11-29

  Mike Prorock, Kimberly Linson, Harrison Tang
  Our Robot Overlords
  Bob Wyman, Harrison Tang, Steve Magennis, Mike Prorock, Jeff O - 
  HumanOS, JP, Charles E. Lehner, Brent Shambaugh, Greg Bernstein, 
  Will, Keith Kowal, David Mason, Kerri Lemoie, Erica Connell, 
  Limari (DIF), David I. Lehn, Paul Dietrich GS1, TallTed // Ted 
  Thibodeau (he/him) (OpenLinkSw.com), Marty Reed, kristina, Dmitri 
  Zagidulin, Geun-Hyung Kim, Drummond Reed, John Kuo, Kimberly 
  Linson, nick, Phil L (P1), Kaliya Young, Adrian Gropper, Paul 
  Fuxjaeger, Juan Caballero, Brent Zundel, Leo, James Chartrand, 
  Adam, Nis Jespersen , Andrew Whitehead, Nikos Fotiou, pchampin, 
  Kayode Ezike, Rishi, Joe Andrieu, BrentZ, Orie Steele, Nate Otto, 
  Ted Thibodeau

Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Mike Prorock:  Hey all we’re going to wait a minute or two as 
  folks trickling in there was a special topic call for the VC 
  working group before this so I know a few folks are still hopping 
  over from that.
Mike Prorock:  Be mindful since recording has started that it's 
  going to be transcribing anything that gets said prior to us 
  officially starting the meeting.
Mike Prorock:  We typically do JP are you new to this call not 
  recognizing the initial yeah yeah and we can if there is any 
  objection to recording we can actually stop recording and just 
  take minutes the old-fashioned way we're totally good with that 
  so if you have an objection from your side do let me know so.
Mike Prorock:  Yeah we typically publish up on our GitHub and 
  then publish to the list etcetera so it that way it's preserved 
  if we need to come back and double-check something.
JP: Okay cool
Harrison_Tang: I'll send I'll send a link so recently we've been 
  a little bit delay like take us like a week or two we'll try to 
  get it within a few weeks a few days thanks.
Mike Prorock: 
<harrison_tang> here are the meeting recordings:  
JP: Gotcha thank you
Mike Prorock:  Cool all right well with that I'm going to go 
  ahead and post the mailing list link to the agenda here the 
  actual agenda for today is discussion of dids in relation to 
  Federated social media and potential obviously other particular 
  items that we may be working on at the CCG directly or things 
  that have evolved and obviously also things that cross over into 
  other areas like get especially at w3c so that is the.
Mike Prorock:   Topic for today the just a.
Mike Prorock: https://www.w3.org/Consortium/cepc/
Mike Prorock:  Quick reminder that our meeting is covered under 
  the w3c code of ethics and professional conduct so basically be 
  nice to other people be mindful be responsible like we normally 
  are here on this call so quick note that anyone can participate 
  in these calls but if you're contributing to an actual work item 
  then you must be a member of the ccg with IPR agreement signed 
  Etc and that's.
Mike Prorock:   You know like actually committing work into a.
Mike Prorock: https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/join
Mike Prorock:  Work item not having discussions or asking 
  questions all this call but if you wish to do so there is the 
  joint link please join us.
Mike Prorock: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/
Mike Prorock:  The as noted as we were starting out the 
  conversation we do post all of our meeting stuff and take 
  recordings ecetera not subjected to so that is the case we do use 
  the chat so if you click on the chat button if this is your first 
  time on Jitsi you'll see a stream of transcription people making 
  snarky comments Etc we use that chat to actually queue people so 
  if you.
Mike Prorock:   Want to get on the queue to speak something.
<mprorock> In IRC type “q+” to add yourself to the queue, with an 
Mike Prorock:  You just type the letters Q+ Etc and the moderator 
  in this case me for today will acknowledge you in the timely 
  fashion I'm just pasting the basic instructions there with that 
  let's move on to intros and reintros I saw at least one new 
  person on so I'm going to put you on the spot JP if you want to 
  intro yourself real quick.
Mike Prorock:  Or not as the case may be.
Mike Prorock:  Alright any any intros anyone new to the call want 
  to introduce themselves to the group change jobs recently you 
  want to reintroduce etcetera.
Limari_(DIF): Yeah I'm new to the group can you hear me okay.
Mike Prorock:  Yeah yup coming through.
<harrison_tang> Hi Limari !
Limari_(DIF): Yeah so my name is Limari I'm the community manager 
  at dif and so yeah I've been there about six months so I just 
  want to say hello it's my first time on this call I met Harrison 
  at iiw recently so hello everyone.
<dmitri_zagidulin> yeyyy hi Limari!
<cel> hello Limari
Mike Prorock:  Hello and awesome to have you and I yeah I know 
  quite a few of us like myself included spend a fair amount of 
  time with dif especially in the dif slack so feel free to Ping 
  chairs directly over here and let us know any way we can support 
  and vice versa.
JP: Hi my name is JP and I’m actually a freelance journalist and 
  I’m trying to write an article about like federated social media 
  particularly the activitypub protocol I talked to Dmitri if you 
  guys know him he’s actually the one who told me about this call 
  so I wanted to know more like about decentralized identifiers and 
  like I guess the activitypub protocol or like decentralized media 
  and stuff so yeah that’s why I’m here so I’ll just be here in the 
<harrison_tang> Hi JP !!
Mike Prorock:  Cool no great great to have you and really 
  appreciate it and just be mindful everyone on the call that 
  there's there's one of them journalist type people here listening 
  and learning yeah no awesome to have you Drummond.
Juan Caballero: 
Drummond Reed:  Hey I just wanted to share of course I’ve been a 
  member of ccg for a long time but now under the new combined 
  brand of avast and Norton LifeLock which is Gen Gen digital and 
  so folks are wondering you know is that is that a new company 
  whatever it is I just want to make sure it's clear it's simply 
  the name of the newly merged entity of avast and lifelock.
Drummond Reed:   Those Brands will continue as product brands.
Drummond Reed:  Under but the new company brand is is Gen digital 
  or you know Gen as the GEN is the trademark so we have we all 
  have new email addresses at gendigital.com just in case anyone's 
  wondering at all.
<bumblefudge> (new wired piece about social media and geotagging, 
  if you scroll up from the funny response from the comments 
<harrison_tang> Thanks, Drummond
Mike Prorock:  Yes indeed and thank you for that update no one 
  ever would make any snarky remarks around your branding or name 
  changes or anything like that at all and so but no great great to 
  have you as always great for grateful for your continued support 
  from you and the team over there so thanks and thanks so much 
  Drummond. Brent
<bshambaugh> canno unmute
<bshambaugh> sorry
<bshambaugh> *cannot
Juan Caballero:  I think he’s having mic problems he q-.
<phil_l_(p1)> someone's mic is on
Harrison_Tang: I think Mike might have drop off.
Mike Prorock:  And now of course my mic is muted and is now back 
  on so hopefully you can hear me now.
Harrison_Tang: Yep everything's good.
Mike Prorock:  Okay cool Greg I see you on the queue there.
Greg Bernstein:  Hello Greg Bernstein recent member of the 
  community group and also looking at the dif stuff previously done 
  a lot of networking stuff and interested in the cryptographic and 
  protocol aspects.
<harrison_tang> Hi Greg
Mike Prorock:  Awesome great to have you and if you overlap at 
  all with any of the if you're interested in the cryptographic 
  side obviously a number of us also overlap over at ietf on things 
  ranked BBS to post Quantum etcetera so.
Greg Bernstein:  I was just looking at the BBS plus stuff and 
  attended the dif meeting where we heard some new results from 
  some professors so very exciting cool stuff so yes I did a lot of 
  a lot of networking stuff at the ietf about 10 years ago so look 
  forward to helping out.
<bumblefudge> 🎉💪
Mike Prorock:  Cool awesome great to have you anyone else from an 
  intro side.
Mike Prorock:  Sweet well with that let's just go ahead and dive 
  into the main topic for the day and I I'm just going to kind of 
  it tip it off with hopefully some controversial statements or 
  whatever and get the conversation going and once just sit back 
  and actually listen to people that know what they're doing quite 
  a few of them are actually in the audience here so I'm going to 
  be looking for a lot of very active q+ in your oils or I wind up 
  close the meeting early but you know we I was having a side 
Mike Prorock:   With someone who's been in the tech industry for 
  quite a while and.
Mike Prorock:  You know one of the one of the things that came up 
  was this thing where you know web3 web5 whatever else you want to 
  call it right in all the SSI stuff and all the Social Web stuff 
  activitypub but then especially on the decentralized side of the 
  world has been I think as long as either of us could remember 
  which is literally from like day one hearing pitches either on 
  the VC side or working with other startups and stuff like that 
  positioned is like oh well it's going to be this great.
Mike Prorock:   Great answer to owning your own identity and so 
Mike Prorock:  Social media when something goes wrong or there's 
  a takeover or a platform goes under suddenly you'll be able to 
  just carry your identity around it it won't be in control of you 
  know whether it's the twitterers or whatever else right and while 
  we are seeing a very interesting and large influx of folks over 
  to some of the Federated stuff like mastodons and certainly some 
  other things like post coming up and stuff like that that really 
  doesn't conform to the Notions of.
Mike Prorock:   Decentralized or Federated type stuff that we 
Mike Prorock:  Elsewhere it seemed like a timely topic to come 
  back and say well look why you know one are we achieving what we 
  want here at ccg and then two are we actually seeing the adoption 
  of facilitating adoption Tech that actually could help with some 
  of these issues and wanted to just kind of throw it out there 
  because ultimately at the end of the day doesn't matter how good 
  we think our specs are if we're not getting this stuff out and in 
  wide usage we're not going to go through and actually see.
Mike Prorock:   Broad adoption of the tech and then ultimately in 
  this case look.
Mike Prorock:  At things like decentralized identifiers in a 
  really practical way now you could obviously also argue that like 
  the meeting from a couple of weeks ago where you're seeing from 
  Microsoft large deployments of decentralized identifiers Etc that 
  maybe that is happening maybe it's not and so that's really the 
  kind of the question for the group is what applications do we 
  have of dids and other ccg tech and to social media does it solve 
  problems and what are we doing or not doing that's either helping 
  adoption or preventing adoption.
Mike Prorock:   And what are the crossovers.
Mike Prorock:  That we should.
<kristina> DIDs or VCs? those are very different
Mike Prorock:  Be looking at as a community group with other 
  areas in w3c ietf and elsewhere in Tech so that's just kind of 
  the big old problem statement that's out there and I am now going 
  to just sit back and watch the queue and create uncomfortable 
  silence until someone like Dmitri jumps and well Kristina that's 
  a very good question.
Mike Prorock:  Adrian fire away.
Adrian Gropper:  So one perspective to consider is that the 
  social media problem at least is not related to Identity but 
  rather to accountability and to be more specific for all the 
  times that recent times that I've been going to rebooting you 
  know at least every time somebody especially including me has 
  raise the.
Adrian Gropper:   Issue of reputation.
Adrian Gropper:  And every time more recently Chris Allen 
  basically puts a red dot on that proposal and says it's really 
  important but it's it's a it's a dead end nobody ever solves this 
  it's too hard I'm paraphrasing what Christopher says so I'm 
  trying to say is not that there's anything wrong with VCS and 
  dids and and what we've done from an.
Adrian Gropper:   Identity perspective.
Adrian Gropper:  But the problem lies with accountability and not 
  identity and especially in the context of social media thank you.
Mike Prorock:  I think that's an interesting take Drummond I see 
  you on the queue.
Mike Prorock:  Drummond I see you on the queue.
<kaliya_identitywoman> I don't think you can have accountability 
  without identity
<dmitri_zagidulin> the eternal search for the unmute button!
Steve Magennis: +1 Kaliya
<bumblefudge> I'm with Kaliya here-- identity is necessary but 
  insufficient for accountability :D
Drummond Reed:  Okay I finally got it unmuted I'm on an iPad and 
  it put something in front of this anyway I wanted to just address 
  Kristina's question she said dids or vcs I want to submit that 
  even though the topic today was dids for you know for social 
  media that the powerful the real power is in a combination they 
  both play a role I think they both play potentially a huge.
Drummond Reed:   Roll I know Gen is.
Drummond Reed:  Looking hard at not just what digital wallets but 
  digital agents that use those wallets will be able to do in a 
  social media social networks style context but every every path 
  we're looking at involves both dids and VCs so all I want to do 
  is just say I don't think it's one or the other I think it's the 
  combination of both that will be magical that's all.
Mike Prorock:  Yep that I think the why not both is a really good 
  good way to possibly look at it Dmitri.
Mike Prorock:  Yep come through loud and clear.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Hi everyone can you hear me okay right on Okay 
<kristina> If the problem is having identifiers not namespaced to 
  the Identity Providers, in the context of what decentralized 
  identity is trying to achieve, DIDs are not only things that 
  solve that problem, bare keys (whatever the representation is - 
  JWK, COSE_Key, etc) solve the same problem too. and clarifying 
  how DIDs are better to solve this problem would help A LOT
Dmitri Zagidulin:  I'm really excited about this call because I 
  really think that current decentralized social media landscape 
  could really benefit from and I agree with Drummond here the 
  combination of dids and verifiable credentials as Adrian 
  mentioned his thesis that the problem is accountability and not 
  identity and I think especially for us in the credentials 
  community group and the did working group and all this stuff 
Dmitri Zagidulin:   So used to really advanced.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Identity infrastructures and debating their 
  you know like historical and downstream implications that we 
  forget that in actual implementation in in deployment.
<drummond> Also, I wanted to add that Adrian is correct — the 
  problem they solve is accountability and ALSO *portability* — the 
  ability to control one's social media data and relationships.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The vast majority of the decentralized Social 
  Web landscape is still in username and password lab.
<drummond> +++1 to Dmitry's point.
<kristina> DID + VC might be powerful, but we have to be clear, 
  they solve very different problems, especially when talking about 
  their "applications" which is I think where MikeP is trying to 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The number of pain points that can be 
  addressed by just adding a better authentication mechanism by 
  just adding a better identity mechanism it cannot be overstated 
  we have huge huge benefits to bring before we even get into 
  questions of accountability which I thought about is important 
  problem to solve but I just want to say don't forget how much how 
  many good tools we've come up with with regards to.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   To persistent identifiers.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Authentication and due to persistent 
  identifiers account recovery so one of the main pain points in 
  the centralized social media landscape or the feta verse doesn't 
  have a slang term for it one of the pain points is well one is 
  being tied to particular servers.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The awkwardness of username and password 
  everywhere but the one of the real main pain points that people 
  complain about is the difficulty of migrating to a different to 
  different server and the I remember seeing Kaliya’s post on 
  Twitter when when when talking about the fediverse.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   And the difficulty of.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Migrating from Twitter to the fediverse Kaliya 
  said something to the extent of.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Shouldn't we be owning our own social graph by 
  now shouldn't this be a solved problem like we've been we've been 
  battling this this whole thing of not being locked into one 
  companies silo.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Shouldn’t we be able to take our Twitter 
  followers and go over to the fediverse without too much without 
  too much friction and while there are some excellent tools by the 
  way that have come up with like movetoDon and Deburdify and some 
  others where like you enter your Twitter address and it scans 
  your followers and following list and tries to look for their 
  forwarding address where they've gone.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Gone to on the fediverse.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Those tools are fantastic and really helpful 
  but Kaliya is right in the sense of.
<smagennis> Technology is NOT the limiting factor r.e. 
<mprorock> that collect really interesting information about 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We should be owning that data our identifiers 
  should be cross-domain cross server and I strongly believe that 
  verifiable credentials and dids offer an excellent mechanism.
<kerri_lemoie> q_
Dmitri Zagidulin:  To be able to do that so long story short I 
  think the fediverse has strong pain points that we have some of 
  the tools and experience to be able to address and what's 
  interesting is that I've already noticed some enhancement 
  proposals to the fediverse from I think members not part of the 
  ccg community not.
Dmitri Zagidulin: 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Part of any of the w3c working groups so our 
  work is being noticed out there and is being proposed to at least 
  for example the activitypub world so I'm going to post a link to 
  a proposed spec in activityPub world that uses dids in the same 
  Tech that we have for verifiable credentials for authentication 
  and identity in activitypub thanks.
Mike Prorock:  Cool I see Kerri drop herself off the queue 
  unfortunately because I wanted to hear from her but maybe she’ll 
  coax back in later Ted.
<kerri_lemoie> I can come back
<dmitri_zagidulin> please do Kerri!
<kerri_lemoie> Loud puppy here
<kim_duffy> Dmitri can you talk to the proposal more?
<mprorock> :)
<dmitri_zagidulin> @Kim - sure!
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Wow yeah a 
  big reason why we don't currently own our data is because we're 
  not paying for these services and you know what we're talking 
  about right now is not moving from server to server but rather 
  moving from service to service and we're moving from services 
  that other people are writing the checks for and the basis on 
  which they're writing their checks is.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com):  the data 
  they get from us.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): They have no 
  incentive to develop a way for us to move from today Twitter to 
  tomorrow twatter it's.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): There's no 
  gain for them.
<kim_duffy> also would love to hear the perspective of anyone 
  currently maintaining mastodon servers. Q yourself up!
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): And in fact 
  there's gain for them in making it harder to make that migration 
  it was oh a decade or more ago that we tried to have an open 
  specification for microblogging which is the terminology that got 
  applied to Twitter and things like it it didn't work for a bunch 
  of reasons and one of the big ones was.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com):  writing 
  those checks.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Microblogging 
  was actually an open spec it's an open standard I don't think it 
  got through full W3 process but it's out there.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): And it's tiny 
  because the Federation problem is large even today even with 
  people who are actually willing to write the checks having a 
  service that Aggregates all of the microblogs that you are trying 
  to follow it was a thing called RSS a thing called Atom that 
  those aggregated macro blogs.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): And that was 
  still difficult.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Aggregating 
  microblogs is more difficult because also you want to track the 
  comments on everything and those are also spread around so every 
  query is really a bunch of queries and they all take time to 
  resolve through the network this is this is a big problem to be 
  solved and I'll leave it there.
Mike Prorock:  Awesome thank you Ted Adrian I think you beat oh 
  no you dropped off so long and have at it
Juan Caballero:  I was just going to mention that I can link the 
  stories in the chat or something but according to TechCrunch the 
  CEO of Tumblr and I believe someone from Flickr both announced 
  that they want to support activityPub as a protocol so in that 
Juan Caballero:   To me it's a little less
Juan Caballero:  Apples and oranges to say to talk about moving 
  from a commercial Network to a non-commercial Federation of 
  networks if some you know maybe smaller maybe shrinking maybe 
  challengers in that commercial Marketplace are open to federating 
  and you can probably guess that guess at the incentives for 
  Flickr and Tumblr which are both somewhat legacy.
Juan Caballero:  Compared to say TikTok or something but if they 
  if they are open to federating to me almost like the most urgent 
  strategic short-term goal would be to move towards helping them 
  or figuring out from them what would make the this open 
  Federation worth joining with their existing business models 
  paying customers advertising.
Juan Caballero:   Moderation services etc.
Juan Caballero:  To sort of close the gap between commercial and 
  non-commercial but anyways I want to reiterate Kim's request that 
  people working on the protocol or implementations would be great 
  to hear from.
<bobwyman> If everything is a comment on something else, then 
  perhaps we should be looking more at W3C Annotation.
<bumblefudge> Kim Duffy
Juan Caballero: 
Mike Prorock:  Yeah absolutely and I agree with all of that so 
  thanks so much and I and and I can confirm yes definitely from 
  both Flickr and I just mental blanked but yes they as you 
  mentioned they did confirm they are going to activityPub that is 
  in progress there's a few others I'm aware of just watching 
  interested GitHub issues etcetera Adrian.
Mike Prorock:   Get back up.
Adrian Gropper:  So I I want to double down and and.
Adrian Gropper:   On what.
Juan Caballero: 
Adrian Gropper:  Ted was saying that the problem is well let's 
  call it surveillance capitalism if we want to give it a single 
  name and add and again it's not identity so just that two small 
  things number one having to put a deposit the way people talk 
  about having to put a small deposit to prevent spam as opposed to 
  letting Google you know run ai to do the same thing and being.
Adrian Gropper:   Tied to that as a.
<kristina> identity, or rather identifier, is what enables 
  "surveillance capitalism" - the ability to aggregate the data 
  around one user's identifier that is long-living
Adrian Gropper:  Service is a form of accountability separate 
  from reputation so reputation is only one form of accountability 
  the other thing that I want to say and others have mentioned this 
  is that at this point in time social networking could start to be 
  considered a digital public good which means that it doesn't need 
  a business model in order to exist.
Adrian Gropper:  Once we all these various communities including 
  the activityPub bunch and us and everybody else decides to look 
  at what part of the stuff we are concerned about in identity 
  world or social activity Pub world or whatever is a digital 
  public good and what isn't we will make progress in this area 
  because I don't.
Adrian Gropper:   Think we could.
Adrian Gropper:  Compete with surveillance capitalism no matter 
  what we do.
Mike Prorock:  Good luck with the funding Dmitri.
<drummond> Adrian, why do you believe we can't compete with 
  surveillance capitalism?
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thanks I wanted to say a couple words about so 
  Ted's comment reminded me that the group might not be familiar 
  with the sort of state of the art and the decentralized Social 
  Web landscape in terms of what are the Open Standards and open 
  specs that people are using so a couple years ago I think it was 
  in 2016 2017 there was a w3c working group called Social Web 
  working group that.
Mike Prorock: 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  That standardized a number of really 
  interesting specifications on which Mastodon was built we were 
  just viewing the sort of current wave of popularity and that is 
  informed some of the other non-activity Pub derived Social Web 
  project like secure scuttlebutt so the one that you hear about 
  the most probably in the press protocol.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  That the Social Web working group standardized 
  is called activitypub.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  It also standardized Google's pubsubhubbub 
  into specification called Web sub for like web subscription 
  events it's standardized activity streams to vocabulary basically 
  a general-purpose data model for if you were going to do social 
  networking this is what you would use as a data model so this is 
  what a post would look like this is what a follow event would 
  look like this is how you like somebody's Post in a sort of cross 
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Decentralized way.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  So it's a really good data model.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  So activity Pub is a we're all probably 
  familiar with RSS from like the previous generation of blogging 
  and microblogging an RSS is a pull based.
Mike Prorock: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Scuttlebutt
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Protocol it's where you subscribe to the blog 
  you follow someone and then your client pulls that person's 
  server every five minutes every 15 minutes whatever you set it 
  right so and that actually lends itself really well to caching 
  because the server can cache those posts and everybody's client 
  hits that server looks for updates there are updates get.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Received and then they read everybody's blog 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Activitypub takes sort of the opposite 
  approach that prime it is primarily push-based so that if I have 
  a blog or a microblog like Twitter and I make a post my server 
  delivers to the inbox of every follower the new post so it's very 
  much like email except.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  It's slightly simple protocol and as the data 
  model it uses these activity streams to specification what's 
  interesting is that Activitypub also supports pull just like RSS 
  it's just that the current iteration of limitations like 
  mastodons and from several of the others don't rely on it as much 
  they mostly rely on push.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  So I'll stop there see if people have 
<kristina> what's the security model for PUSH? how does the 
  receiving server authenticates who is pushing?
<phil_l_(p1)> @Dmitri - you might speak to the performance 
  differences these to comm strategies impose
Mike Prorock:  No I think that's an excellent history and I did 
  link into the spec called activityPub and some others in it 
  because I think that history is really important and I think the 
  pub sub models like we go back old-school networking stuff there 
  are very key differences between the pulling mechanisms that 
  we're following going on at a technical level prior to kind of 
  more of this push oriented mode by default and that's where 
  things get really interesting I think as Kristina’s commenting on 
  in the chat.
Mike Prorock:   Things like that right there's a lot rolled into 
<bobwyman> When there is diversity of service providers for a 
  single service, names like "<name>@<service>" do double-duty as 
  "advertisements" for the services and also allow users to 
  publicize their association with a particular community.
Mike Prorock:  No this keyboard drives me nuts sorry about that 
  Bob I see you on the Queue there.
<orie> has Mastodon switched to CBOR yet?
<dmitri_zagidulin> Orie - nope :) not yet
Bob Wyman:  Yeah actually I love to comment on the pub/sub stuff 
  but I but my reason for getting on the Queue is for earlier 
  comments I just wanted to point out that one of the attributes of 
  names non did names or names that people are using for instance 
  on Mastodon and this is something that that occurs Whenever there 
  are sort of multiple providers for a single service is that if 
  the name is structured something like you know .
Bob Wyman:   A personal name at service.
<mprorock> orie is my favorite directed troll
Bob Wyman:  Then everybody's idea essentially becomes an 
  advertisement for the service for instance if I'm right now I'm 
  BobWyman@Macedon.social every time anybody sees that 
  Mastodon.social is essentially being advertised the name also 
  sort of these names that are being used that on did names now are 
  things like let’s say.
Bob Wyman:  I was Bobwyman@journos.host.
Bob Wyman:  I can't remember what they're journalists.something 
  or other essentially what I'd be doing is I'd be declaring in my 
  name my association with a particular community and I think 
  that's a different set of needs that are addressed by a lot of 
  what I see in the in the did discussions where the where the goal 
  is to have you know a unique name which is persistent which can 
  be ported etcetera Etc I just want to just want to point out.
Bob Wyman:   That the kinds of names.
Bob Wyman:  That people are using right now in the in the 
  fediverse provide some some interesting additional information in 
  that you know they are valuable to the people who write the 
  checks as advertisements and they're also valuable to the people 
  who who used the names because they they get to do this group 
  format they have this group formation function or group 
  declaration group Allegiance declaration.
Bob Wyman:   Functions that come.
Bob Wyman:  That are implied by the by the service names that's 
Mike Prorock:  And absolutely it's almost kind of like declaring 
  a default subreddit attached to your name or something like that 
  it's definitely been interesting to watch and I queued myself and 
  I lack myself to say you know I've heard some comments that like 
  hey identity isn't the issue whatever else I'll tell you what is 
  the end-user right if I take my tech hat off to take any other 
  hat off you know go and chase him down and other folks you know 
  who sure made it Easy by posting in there you know Twitter.
Mike Prorock:   Descriptions or bios what Mastodon server they're 
  hitting off of or whatever else.
<orie> 🍿 https://twitter.com/CISAJen/status/1595114055588810752
Mike Prorock: Cool great but I'll tell you what if I wanted then 
  go jump from Mastodon party over to w3c social or whatever else 
  yeah that identity in the things attached to me as a user that's 
  almost impossible and I've heard that from folks that are you 
  know Tech writers from other folks right and it's become a very 
  complicated and painful thing as folks are trying to work through 
  what do they want to do so identity is genuinely an issue right 
  and that's and if we can solve that and facilitate that then we 
  actually might be.
Mike Prorock:   Getting at some of the you know providing the 
  tools to go answer some of those other things you know that are 
Mike Prorock:  Go ahead Bob yeah.
Bob Wyman:  If I could just add quickly add I just wanted to add 
  that I've seen people on Mastodon say they are moving from one 
  instance to an and the reason they are moving isn't because of 
  features or better service or whatever they say they are moving 
  because they are looking for a more appropriate name or 
  essentially service to associate with their name okay like 
  Mastodon.social social for instance is pretty ambiguous on the 
  other hand.
Bob Wyman:   You know journos.something or infosec or.
Bob Wyman:  Whatever that's a name you may wish and may want to 
  have associated with yourself so people are moving in order to 
  get new names and that's a that's a that's something of value 
  that I think we need to remember.
Mike Prorock:  Yeah absolutely and should you have Accounts at 
  multiples Etc right it's a weird thing that I don't think 
  anyone's answered yet and a lot of questions get asked both on 
  Mastodon on the bird site and other sites right now Keith.
Keith Kowal:  Yeah thank you great conversation I mean I'd like 
  to maybe just go back to the beginning and you know I think we 
  came in with a premise that dids and verifiable credentials are 
  better for social media and I mean on the verifiable credential 
  side I mean it always strikes me that verifiable credentials is a 
  data model is quite heavy for social media I mean I'm still would 
  I'm not convinced it like verifiable credentials the data model 
  is the ideal thing for social media and then I think maybe it's 
  not that I'm not fan I mean I'm a big.
Keith Kowal:   Fan of verifiable credentials for I think a lot of 
  the use cases were working on and I think for dids.
Keith Kowal:  I mean I think my.
<kaliya_identitywoman> SBTs!!!!
<dmitri_zagidulin> kaliya... :)
<kim_duffy> Useful for a subset , small it may be
Keith Kowal:  Challenge with that is like of course I love dids 
  dids are great but it's not like every user is super good about 
  like storing their word list in a safe or something I mean I'm 
  curious how many lost password request Facebook and Twitter get 
  everyday I mean there's a reason like they strengthen their 
  authentication model I'm sure they have good business rationale 
  for that just to say like you know just to say well data is 
  better yes but also if you were a platform dids introduce a lot 
  of problems when people like lose control.
Keith Kowal:   Of their keys can't recover and then you know also 
  lose their entire social media feed like is that an acceptable.
Keith Kowal:  User experience so I just like to maybe come back 
  and I think we jumped right into well dids and VC's are certainly 
  better for social media and I guess I'm curious maybe we need to 
  articulate more why it's better.
<kaliya_identitywoman> (that was a joke - the SBT reference)
Dmitri Zagidulin:  This is awesome this is really great points 
  being made and a great questions so one of the greatest regrets 
  of many people in the Social Web working group is that by the 
  time the charter ran out and in fact fun fact the charter was 
  extended by a year because somebody implemented Mastodon and it 
  was growing about the popularity and w3c's like all right let's 
  give these people some more time because this is actually taking 
  off in the world but one of the greatest.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Regrets of everybody from The Social Web 
  working group is that one the charter ran out.
<smagennis> joke == parody??
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Authentication and access controls were not 
  specified so we punted on those we said all right we it's amazing 
  enough that we managed to agree on a protocol and a data model 
  somebody else is going to have to figure out authentication 
  identity and access control and you're all probably horrified 
  hearing this because you know what that leads to and at least 
  exactly what we have right now of the points that Bob Wyman 
  mentioned it led to username and passwords.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   On servers.
<orie> did@server qed.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  So you for your identifier is you know your 
  username at a server and all the things that it leads to so to to 
  answer the previous speakers question Keith's why do we think 
  that dids and verifiable credentials can benefit to the 
  decentralized social part of it has to do with to get away from.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Having our identifier.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Be bound to a particular server but I want to 
  answer Kristina’s question on so how does given this email light 
  push model with activity Pub where when I make a post my server 
  delivers it to people's inboxes how does that get authenticated 
  what's the identity model like there.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And basically at the moment the majority of 
  the community uses HTTP signatures.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  So Keith mentioned that verifiable credentials 
  is heavy data model I look at it the opposite I look what's 
  verifiable credential it's just the Json object with a signature 
  and that's exactly what the Fediverse uses right now so each post 
  is essentially signed.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  By a public key right so we're still not in 
  did land where we have one level of indirection where a stable 
  identifier can resolve to a bag of rotatable keys No so at the 
  moment the fediverse just has like one public key links to an 
  identity with all of the rotation recovery problems than that 
  that brings but and if you look at that SCP proposal that I 
  linked to later and I'm happy to throw another.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Link into the chat.
<orie> Why not use DPOP?
Dmitri Zagidulin:  There's there's an example there of what a 
  post looks like just a Json object with a signature and the 
  signature demonstrates the proof of possession of a key and in 
  The Proposal proof possession of a did so that's the that's the 
  general sort of state of the Arts authentication authorization 
  thing so it's a real quick what can what can dids bring to the 
<drummond> I'm about to speak to this ToIP spec that just went 
  into public review two weeks ago: 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Easier account migration if I own my social 
  graph meaning if my contacts list has everybody’s dids then 
  regardless of what server they move to I can resolve their dids 
  look at the service endpoint and say okay now their Twitter is at 
  such-and-such domain and continue following them painlessly back 
  okay that's it.
Mike Prorock:  Awesome Drummond I think you're next.
<kim_duffy> well said Dmitri
<dmitri_zagidulin> oh noooo! haha un-intentional, Drummong :)
Drummond Reed:  Yeah yeah actually Dmitri stole a bunch of my 
  thunder but that's all I wanted to say was that when I was 
  suggesting earlier that dids and vcs are you know are both needed 
  it wasn't to suggest that either one the the protocols for for 
  certainly did resolution or for VC exchange are the protocols 
  that we should be using for decentralized social media.
<bshambaugh> He's a storm!
Drummond Reed:  It was it was to say they can address the it 
  precisely those issues of identification and authentication and 
  authorization that we need for decentralized social media when we 
  want to look at the protocol stack for decentralized social media 
  and I know half the people in the call will know what I'm going 
  to say you know we've been working on a stack that would work for 
  that puts trust first and it is at trust over IP so I put it into 
Drummond Reed:   The chat already linked to the trust over IP 
  technical architecture spec.
<dmitri_zagidulin> here's the identity proposal (upgrading from 
  just public keys to DIDs) that I mentioned: 
Drummond Reed:  That that we put out two weeks ago before IIW and 
  had great conversations at IIW and all I want to do is point out 
  to folks that these social media protocols things like 
  activityPub could fit very nicely at layer 3 of that stack that's 
  what we call Trust and they could take advantage of the whole 
  stack so I think we're at the early stages of figuring out the 
  protocols we’ll use and and all the you know challenging things 
  building a.
Drummond Reed:   Decentralized Network that will scale the way 
  that Twitter or Facebook does.
Drummond Reed:  But we have a path to get there and I just wanted 
  to point towards that that's all.
<orie> Maybe use MLS instead of TOIP... 
  https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/mls/about/ ?
<dmitri_zagidulin> orie - why not both! :)
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Yeah forgive 
  me the last thing you said Drummond just scale the way Twitter or 
  Facebook does is throw more machines at it whether they're 
  physical or virtual and they're mostly physical at this point 
  which is not a cheap proposition scaling to the web is a big 
  challenge trying to provide a service that's available.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com):  to everybody 
  all the time.
<orie> lets add protocol buffers too... better to be inclusive /s
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Is semi 
  solved but the solution again is a bunch of money and a bunch of 
  hardware and the more that people talk about individuals doing 
  this for themselves gets back to the priesthood of the sis op and 
  and do you know enough about the operating system and the 
  hardware and oh the security things that come in with firewalls 
  and the.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): List goes on 
  and on.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Asking 
  everyone to be there on sis op is heavy and I question whether 
  that's going to be really the way to go.
<dmitri_zagidulin> also yeyy solid!
<davidm> bittorrent and other media sharing networks didn't have 
  that overhead and were wildly popular
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): The mode the 
  moral code behind solid is the freedom to run your own but it 
  doesn't mandate that you do but the way most people are building 
  that thing the standards that are underlying the solid project 
  they do basically assume that people will be running their own 
  and that's I think that's going to be a big hill in the way.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com):  as far as.
<dmitri_zagidulin> which, incidentally, there's interest in the 
  Solid community to support DIDs, as well
<orie> imagine trying to survive without credit... thats what 
  trying to be a hardcore ssi player is like.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): The web of 
  accountability or the accountable web or the blamable web or 
  something like that there is in existence today and it's been 
  there for a while the Credible web community group which is 
  trying to answer the questions of what are the questions that 
  need to be solved in order to make the web credible in order to 
  make it easier to ferret out false posts and misleading posts and 
  even if they’re.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com):  trying to be 
<dmitri_zagidulin> orie - credit?
<drummond> I totally agree that 99.9% of the population will not 
  run their own servers.
<orie> credit ~= trust a server operator.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Because they 
  were based on somebody else's misleadingness how do you deal with 
  that stuff and sort of the Baseline of everything is sign 
  everything I can't sign my Twitter feed I can't sign the 
  individual post there it's just too small I can sign all my 
  e-mails and that's semi useful because then we have mail clients 
  that don't necessarily handle a signature on it but that's the 
  only verified piece that's there.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com):  that's 
  available is verifiable credentials are based.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): On signing 
  the things.
<kaliya_identitywoman> the Accountable WEb paper - from way way 
  back - https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=529022
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): It's a big 
  big Tangled knot I think one of the the alternate social groups 
  social networks that's trying to get out there is called gordian 
  and gordian is about a knot that is basically untiable untiable 
  it is perpetual and that's sort of where I think we're going to 
  be for a while.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com):  that's it 
  for now.
<tallted> a couple things that may be of interest for later...
<tallted> - Credible Web Community Group -- 
<tallted> - OpenLink YouID -- https://youid.openlinksw.com/
<orie> The irony of the gordion knot is the alexander the great 
  solved it, by cutting it.
Bob Wyman:  Yeah on the on the thing about everybody having to be 
  their own sis op or many people having to be sis Ops with 
  Mastodon I think.
Orie Steele: https://github.com/BlockchainCommons/Gordian
Bob Wyman:  An old Story I Heard years ago I think turns out to 
  be a useful metaphor or analogy or whatever and that is 
  apparently there was a Black & Decker sales convention Black & 
  Decker made a lot of drills and tools and things like that and 
  the the president of the company gets up and he talks to this 
  he's addressing the Salesforce and he says I've got some good 
  news and I've got some bad news and the bad news is we've done a 
  lot of research on the market and nobody wants drills.
Bob Wyman:  The good news is a lot of people want holes and I 
  think the that sort of very much like what's going on with 
  Mastadon a lot of people are becoming sis Ops not because they 
  want to be sis Ops but because being a sis op is the mechanism by 
  which you create a community but which you establish sort of a 
  local filtering and content moderation regime..
Bob Wyman:  It's the mechanism by which you can build it build a 
  community tie yourself to others Etc so being a sis op 
  essentially becomes a cost of achieving these other purposes and 
  and I think we have to be you know aware of that we have to be 
  thinking about sort of the question is like why are these people 
  going and becoming sis Ops they are not going to enjoy the well 
  some of them will but they're kind of Twisted.
Bob Wyman:   But most of them are not going to enjoy the.
Bob Wyman:  The process of being a sis op on the other hand they 
  very much want the sort of the the benefits that come from being 
<nate_otto_(he/him)> Sysops evolution to "site reliability 
  engineering" creates some really exciting job descriptions.
Mike Prorock:  Yeah I mean if I think about Tor exit nodes and 
  who likes to operate those fediverse man create some really 
  interesting opportunities Dmitri.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  I want to give a big +1 to Bob and Tall Teds’ 
  points that absolutely right nobody wants to be a sysop nobody 
  wants to be running a server not even the sysops they also don't 
  want to be doing it one of the analogies that I've that I've 
  always liked to throw out there both in terms of the … project 
  and in terms of activity Pub is that we're trying to do for 
  Facebook and Twitter what email did for sending messages.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   We're trying to standardize it make it.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Interoperable understandable and cheap so 
  email’s both a good and a bad example because because of Gmail 
  because even though it is the canonical decentralized protocol 
  it's sort of drifted towards aggregation and and centralization 
  on the one hand on the other hand email’s an excellent analogy of 
  the kind of world where we want to be because it comes free with 
  your box of breakfast cereal email is really cheap like so your 
  your school gives you an email your work gives you an email your 
  ISP gives you a free email.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   You know there's lots of players that are 
  able to do that so and that's what we're trying to get to.
<bobwyman> We shouldn't be designing systems that require you to 
  become a sysop in order to enjoy the benefits of the system. 
  (i.e. it should be possible to build a distinct community without 
  having to be the sysop for that community.)
Dmitri Zagidulin:  With with the fediverse to bring it back to 
  the subject of our call in terms of like dids and VCs with 
  regards to do so I genuinely think that having a portable 
  identity such as that that dids provide.
<adam> There can be many products and services for the Fediverse, 
  including a sysop service.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Allows for the lessening of the role of sysops 
  allow makes it so that the server on which you're operating 
  doesn't matter you can pick it on whatever criteria you can move 
  it at any time and take everything so that's definitely the kind 
  of world that we want to be in where people are not running their 
  own servers where they just like with email can choose their 
  favorite provider that is compatible with others and can move it 
  at any point oh one quick thing.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   I wanted to mention at the beginning of the 
Dmitri Zagidulin: 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  With Community announcements but I completely 
  forgot and that is so we're restarting the Social Web community 
  group over at w3c and so I highly encourage everybody to join or 
  at least follow the subscribe to the mailing list because we can 
  continue a lot of this conversation of both protocols and 
  identity and so on over there thanks.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And I just dropped a link in the chat.
<paul_fuxjaeger> thanks so much for that effort Dmitri!
Mike Prorock:  Awesome thank you just being mindful of time here 
  because I'm don't want to run us right up to the hour again I 
  know we felt and try to like actually close off and give people 
  sanity breaks in between meetings here anyone else want to hop on 
  the queue for kind of closing thoughts around this topic I mean 
  you know and I’ll spur it this way which is obviously a few folks 
  in this audience are doing something about it but like what are 
  you going to do about it and.
Mike Prorock:   And what update could.
<bshambaugh> I thought that the growth of Bitcoin and Web3 was 
  built on F.O.M.O, and greed. What other incentives are there?
Mike Prorock:  We potentially expect to come back and see back to 
  the ccg and say yeah you know we had this meeting stuff was 
  messed up or there was an opportunity there or we hadn't figured 
  out the market side or how to get this adopted etcetera and this 
  is now what's going on as a result that's not be really curious 
  to see here so anyways any anyone on the Queue I'm going to leave 
  it open for another minute or two here and then we'll close it 
  out at five till the hour.
Mike Prorock:   But pretty good opportunity to go.
Mike Prorock:  See some shots here.
<bumblefudge> idunno, say what you will about bluesky it is a 
  DWN/DID-based pubsub mechanism...
Mike Prorock:  Yeah can we avoid some fomo and greed and you know 
  I don't know dare I say things like Ponzi schemes avoidance in 
  this case all right well with that I do want to thank especially 
  Dmitri and Drummond and others that have been working hard on 
  this topic and getting some great technical stuff out there 
Mike Prorock:   Also for the did folks.
<orie> Web5 is Mastodon LD right?
<bumblefudge> ^other way around
<dmitri_zagidulin> @Orie - YESSSS
Mike Prorock:  For showing up I really frankly don't want to go 
  migrate my users from yet another Mastodon server to another one 
  so I'm just looking for answers from a practical user standpoint 
  and it's irritating me so I'd love an answer to it really 
  appreciate the conversation questions and the great Insight from 
  a large variety of different backgrounds on the call last chance 
  for any closing statements here.
<kaliya_identitywoman> Thanks for the conversation!
Drummond Reed:  Just really glad you brought it up Mike I think 
  this is good and it's a rich new area for us to be discussing.
<kim_duffy> Thanks all!
<dmitri_zagidulin> thanks mike!!
<econnell> Thank you - great conversation!
<limari_(dif)> Thank you, it was great to attend and educational
<adam> Thanks all
Mike Prorock:  A it absolutely is and I and I part of this too is 
  the you know just kind of prodding that seed of like hey as VCS 
  and dids are kind of moving on in their work group side we're 
  going to see some interesting potential ccg work items Etc right 
  that may be related to this Rishi I think I see you on the queue.
<phil_l_(p1)> :+1:
Dmitri Zagidulin:  I think it’s Kaliya.
<rishi> no that was a mistake :)
Kaliya Young:  I just had a I had a thought and since we have 
  we're not quite at the top of the hour I had a thought as I was 
  listening to the call and somebody mentioned the accountable web 
  and I pulled up this ancient paper called the accountable net and 
  there are several other quote unquote ancient papers that 
  actually may be worth having like the thought that came to mind 
  was like should we take in the sense that there is a bunch of 
  literature that is.
Dmitri Zagidulin: +1 Kaliya, ancient papers is where it's at!! :)
<mprorock> there is nothing new under the sun ;)
Kaliya Young:  Informative of these questions and maybe there's 
  some people who want to read some of these ancient papers that 
  still have wisdom in them for us or maybe contemporary papers 
  whatever and then talk about them so that there's some sense 
  making of not just our thoughts which this conversation was great 
  with some thoughts anchored to some specific work that help us as 
  a group.
Kaliya Young:   Engage with the material.
Mike Prorock:  Yeah that'd be awesome and thank you for bringing 
  that up by I'm a big believer and I know I've had this 
  conversation with Bob and Ted and some others in the group you 
  know just about how you know there's a lot of reinvention and 
  relabeling and we always think it's new the first time it comes 
  up and in reality there's a lot of these things have been very 
  well thought out historically and we should learn from that stuff 
  and not forget it Bob you're up.
Bob Wyman:  Yeah sort of following on that ancient ideas thing 
  you know I'm I'm intrigued tremendously by the fact that a lot of 
  what people seem to be getting excited about today are 
  essentially things that we were talking about literally 20 25 or 
  more years ago but for a variety of reasons like for instance the 
  arrival of say Twitter Facebook is these massive you know highly 
  capitalized services that just blew everybody away.
Bob Wyman:   They kind of layed dormant for a.
<tallted> ( we're at closing time )
<mprorock> que closed
<mprorock> *queue - man i can't type or spell or function today
Bob Wyman:  Long time but the reality is is the stuff that was 
  being written and thought about and documented 20 25 30 or more 
  years ago it's all good stuff and it's finally now having its 
  opportunity to see the light and I've been in a number of 
  conversations where people have talked about standards for those 
  say oh you know it's not worth our time to work on this because 
  the the incumbents you know the big guys just aren't going to 
  accept it and if nothing.
Bob Wyman:   Else just like to suggest is a strategy strategic 
  thing for people to understand.
<kim_duffy> Yesss
Bob Wyman:  Is that you know even if it looks like figuring out 
  what their correct solution is today won't get you any great 
  benefit today remember there are events like this where we're 
  potentially decades later the window opens and and it becomes 
  really important to have the correct or at least a more correct 
  solution available for deployment to take advantage of of the 
  kind of situation we’ve seen.
Bob Wyman:  In the last few weeks I don't think anybody could 
  have imagined that something like Twitter would be taken down 
  because of the behavior of its owner but but these are the kinds 
  of opportunities that can one day make a lot of work that may be 
  ignored today exceptionally important tomorrow.
Mike Prorock:  Yep that good old tide in the Affairs of men 
  Shakespeare etcetera JP you're going to get the final because I 
  closed the queue and.
JP: Yeah can you guys hear me okay so just to make sure before 
  like I say something when you say dids you mean like 
  decentralized identifiers or just like persistent or can be 
  verified across like whatever website that
<drummond> Bob is SO right. SMTP email came out of nowhere to 
  completely displace the 800 lb gorilla email services of their 
  time (AOL, MCI, Compuserve)
<tallted> "Chief Twit" was a (surprisingly?) apt appellation...
Mike Prorock:  Yeah things in compliant yeah decentralized 
  identifiers as compliant with the did core specification from w3c 
  so and yeah that notion of you know persistent usability across I 
  mean there's a lot of different aspects in a lot of different 
  ways of implementing that data model right some more centralized 
  than others so that it's kind of a complex topic unfortunately 
  right it makes it hard for end-users to grasp but I think the end 
  that folks are.
Mike Prorock:   After here is that I is a user going to have my 
  identifiers that oh.
Mike Prorock:  I want to go pick it up and move to another site 
  or maybe interact the same way across all my sites but without 
  necessarily putting say Google in control of that or someone else 
  like that so yeah or for that matter.
<bumblefudge> CCG thread!
JP: One thing that I like heard about like as a concern was some 
  guys’ blog I forgot his name and he also I don’t think really 
  understood activitypub as much as I wish he would’ve but like one 
  thing that he brought up was that like it’s the idea that like if 
  people have your identifier like let’s say that you’re in a 
  federated like network or whatever and like all of these I guess 
  these instances have your identifier if you do something that’s 
  like really controversial, like they could like strategically I 
  guess like block you from the whole network like based on that so 
  I think there’s like a concern about like how like decentralized 
  identifiers can like be used against like its users
Mike Prorock:  Yeah I think I think it's a great question I think 
  there are some folks on this call that would be great to dive 
  into that because that gets into some really nuanced and 
  practical implementation side but there are ways to avoid that 
  problem as well as to encourage that problem and I would love to 
  see some discussion on the list on that as well on as throwing 
  out there as let's get it on the list anyways Harrison I think 
  you started recording so you'll have to end it and actually be 
  the last.
Mike Prorock:   Last one out of the meeting.
Mike Prorock:  Unfortunately so since you beat me and that's what 
  you get so thank you all really appreciate it awesome 
  conversation today really enjoyed it once again the challenges go 
  build something and get it adopted so.
<pchampin> great discussion :)
<harrison_tang> Thanks, Mike and everyone!
<rishi> Thank you Mike
<bshambaugh> Thanks Mike!
Received on Wednesday, 30 November 2022 11:44:27 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Wednesday, 30 November 2022 11:44:28 UTC