W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-credentials@w3.org > January 2022

Re: Ideals meet Implementations - Blockchains, NFTs, Decentralization, Oh My!

From: Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 19:04:48 -0500
Message-ID: <CANYRo8hCG+8bjq6sNOnWx7MhBByfqzd5r_sTQL759A7fjV6P1g@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Ward, David" <dward@pcgus.com>
Cc: Mike Prorock <mprorock@mesur.io>, Bob Wyman <bob@wyman.us>, W3C Credentials CG <public-credentials@w3.org>
Thanks, David.

The marriage or human rights framing is hopefully not the issue. We can
discuss the burdens on the credential subject and then we can discuss the
mitigations. Delegation is just the only mitigation that I can think of.
Are we debating about the burdens? Are there other mitigations we should
consider relative to the burdens?

Where are we to discuss the burden of standardized digital credentials and
then the possible mitigations?

Adrian




On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 6:55 PM Ward, David <dward@pcgus.com> wrote:

> I am not saying that delegation is unimportant, just that I do not read it
> into any of the rights of the UHDR.
>
>
>
> I believe delegation is very important and more attention probably needs
> to be put on that topic.
>
>
>
> I’ve seen way too many examples and discussions where there is an implied
> assumption that “holder” = “subject” to the point where people mix the two
> terms as being synonymous.  I think this is a problem where we need to
> choose the correct terms when talking to people that are learning about VCs.
>
>
>
>
>
> David
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 3:05 PM
> *To: *"Ward, David" <dward@pcgus.com>
> *Cc: *Mike Prorock <mprorock@mesur.io>, Bob Wyman <bob@wyman.us>, W3C
> Credentials CG <public-credentials@w3.org>
> *Subject: *Re: Ideals meet Implementations - Blockchains, NFTs,
> Decentralization, Oh My!
>
>
>
> *[EXTERNAL EMAIL]* Be cautious when clicking links or opening attachments.
>
> Delegation is used to reduce the burden on an individual. Control of
> standardized digital credentials is a burden that grows in proportion to
> their adoption. Any of you that have had the misfortune my family has had
> to deal with credentials as legal guardians of an incapacitated person know
> what I'm talking about.
>
>
>
> Marriage is highly relevant when considering the general scope of our
> work. Article 16 reflects the right to freely choose one's delegate.
> Certification of delegates, as in "client credentials" adds significantly
> to the burden or the cost to the individual subject.
>
>
>
> - Adrian
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 5:54 PM Ward, David <dward@pcgus.com> wrote:
>
> I think refering to one’s spouse as a delegate is going a bit far in most
> cases.
>
>
>
> Similarly the Articles 17 (right to own property) and 18 (right to freedom
> of thought and belief) from the list do not appear to be directly related
> to a right to delegate either.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *David Ward*
>
> 581-702-8397 tel
>
> https://www.pcgcanada.com
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pcgcanada.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cdward%40pcgus.com%7Cc60dc43daa16470c75e408d9dad7018e%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0%7C0%7C637781439308781210%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=hkK4l4QfzeYkdgXvzX3CNiWqfssEaGunR4PnmhP6pBM%3D&reserved=0>
>
> *[image: signature_1397413660]*
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fpcgca%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cdward%40pcgus.com%7Cc60dc43daa16470c75e408d9dad7018e%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0%7C0%7C637781439308781210%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=T1g4I6XgfAAFxxp7HXKxTWDjOG39IXT3beVsHdQMCh8%3D&reserved=0>*[image:
> signature_1222238262]*
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.instagram.com%2Fpcgcanada%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cdward%40pcgus.com%7Cc60dc43daa16470c75e408d9dad7018e%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0%7C0%7C637781439308781210%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Mrp51TyOfjRtZc8GXWUmr0Or3VrMzARmOEcctrEx9Nc%3D&reserved=0>*[image:
> signature_388937894]*
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fpcgca&data=04%7C01%7Cdward%40pcgus.com%7Cc60dc43daa16470c75e408d9dad7018e%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0%7C0%7C637781439308937424%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=V1%2FFH8PTwrixkwfv5jHpujeTQjkA6HZPZQ1kJl9eBnE%3D&reserved=0>*[image:
> signature_2146606747]*
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fshowcase%2Fpcg-canada%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cdward%40pcgus.com%7Cc60dc43daa16470c75e408d9dad7018e%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0%7C0%7C637781439308937424%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Kf1mBVUOivWuG3pX7F84rZfLeWF4Cd%2BYtUdAUfVTrBU%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information
> intended for a specific individual and purpose and is protected by law.  If
> you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message and are
> hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this
> message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 2:42 PM
> *To: *Mike Prorock <mprorock@mesur.io>
> *Cc: *Bob Wyman <bob@wyman.us>, W3C Credentials CG <
> public-credentials@w3.org>
> *Subject: *Re: Ideals meet Implementations - Blockchains, NFTs,
> Decentralization, Oh My!
> *Resent-From: *<public-credentials@w3.org>
> *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 2:40 PM
>
>
>
> *[EXTERNAL EMAIL]* Be cautious when clicking links or opening attachments.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by "direct links" but perhaps the best way I
> can explain the human rights angle is to refer to Article 16
> https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.un.org%2Fen%2Fabout-us%2Funiversal-declaration-of-human-rights&data=04%7C01%7Cdward%40pcgus.com%7Cc60dc43daa16470c75e408d9dad7018e%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0%7C0%7C637781439308937424%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=xgdMca0EY0HBU9Jr9kDKHa3fGg3bYmLtlX2lywgItzM%3D&reserved=0>
> that states:
>
> Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality
> or religion, have the right to marry...
>
>
>
> Marriage, in our context, is a legally and socially recognized right to
> choose a delegate (spouse), share only some of our policies with
> that delegate, and have that delegate recognized as acting on our behalf.
>
>
>
> - Adrian
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 5:06 PM Mike Prorock <mprorock@mesur.io> wrote:
>
> Adrian,
>
> In that linked post you state:
>
> With respect to the UDHRs, I would point to
> 12 (privacy and confidentiality), 13 (anonymity), 14 (limit the reach of
> DHS and other state actors), 17 (the right to associate with and delegate
> to others), 18 (associate with and delegate to communities one chooses), 20
> (association, again), 21 (secret elections), 22 (anonymity), 23 (trade
> unions as delegates), 24 (burden of managing decisions in an asymmetric
> power relationship with the state or with dominant private platforms), 29
> (duties to and scope of the community).
>
>
>
> I think Bob may have been asking for some direct links, as I am explicitly
> asking for now.  Basically [citation needed]
>
>
> Mike Prorock
>
> CTO, Founder
>
> https://mesur.io/
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmesur.io%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cdward%40pcgus.com%7Cc60dc43daa16470c75e408d9dad7018e%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0%7C0%7C637781439308937424%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=qKb7LaXCY4gyncjBv1tWK3gsu7aJlrjfqDpURYS75Yw%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 4:16 PM Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com>
> wrote:
>
> Yes, Bob. Here are some references to UDHR
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2022Jan/0017.html
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.w3.org%2FArchives%2FPublic%2Fpublic-credentials%2F2022Jan%2F0017.html&data=04%7C01%7Cdward%40pcgus.com%7Cc60dc43daa16470c75e408d9dad7018e%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0%7C0%7C637781439308937424%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Mj%2FpZ3k2VG1EgJbNF1ONt5LWTTEqkhWyFDBTCMh1yio%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> Adrian
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 3:56 PM Bob Wyman <bob@wyman.us> wrote:
>
> Adrian,
>
> You wrote: "Burdening the user to both store and control their credential
> using a "holder" principle is a violation of a person's *right to
> delegate*."
>
>
>
> Could you please explain what you mean by the "right to delegate?" Is this
> "right" either enumerated within or implied by some existing constitution
> or international document such as the Universal Declaration of Human
> Rights? While I certainly agree that there are many things that users
> should be able to delegate, I'm not sure how one would argue for an
> entitlement to delegate which is so fundamental that one would call it a
> "right."
>
>
>
> bob wyman
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 2:29 PM Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com>
> wrote:
>
> Anil,
>
>
>
> Here's the beginning and the conclusion that relates to W3C SSI work:
>
>
>
> If we do want to change our relationship to technology, I think we’d have
> to do it intentionally. My basic thoughts are roughly:
>
>
>    1. *We should accept the premise that people will not run their own
>    servers by designing systems that can distribute trust without having to
>    distribute infrastructure.* This means architecture that anticipates
>    and accepts the inevitable outcome of relatively centralized client/server
>    relationships, but uses cryptography (rather than infrastructure) to
>    distribute trust. One of the surprising things to me about web3, despite
>    being built on “crypto,” is how little cryptography seems to be involved!
>
> This is also the point I've been trying to make from a human rights
> perspective: *Burdening the user to both store and control their
> credential using a "holder" principle is a violation of a person's right to
> delegate*.
>
>
>
> It could also be counter-productive to adoption of our work, including
> "crypto", on standardized digital credentials. One of the places I
> experience this personally is when the vast majority of government agencies
> insist on me providing them with "Release Forms" and do not accept the
> documents themselves. I agree that most private verifiers do accept the
> documents but even they are likely to balk at redacted "presentations".
>
>
>
> - Adrian
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:34 PM Philipp Schmidt <phi.schmidt@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Moxie’s piece is excellent. I also found the comparison to web 1.0 and 2.0
> in Tim O’Reilly’s article useful:
>
>
>
> https://www.oreilly.com/radar/why-its-too-early-to-get-excited-about-web3/
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.oreilly.com%2Fradar%2Fwhy-its-too-early-to-get-excited-about-web3%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cdward%40pcgus.com%7Cc60dc43daa16470c75e408d9dad7018e%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0%7C0%7C637781439308937424%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=nf73RX2B25GwiarA%2FMfJx0RpzcikIIr%2FtfwhSY4T%2BWI%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> I would like to read more thoughtful and well argued pro-web3 articles,
> appreciate links from this community!
>
>
>
> P
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:28 PM Phillip Long <pdlong2@asu.edu> wrote:
>
> Anil: Moxie is the founder of Whisper Systems, acquired back in Twitter in
> 2011. Later he developed Signal (the secure messaging app), etc. A similar
> critique of web3 was published recently by Jeff Galloway (a polarizing
> voice for many to be sure) at https://www.profgalloway.com/web3/
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.profgalloway.com%2Fweb3%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cdward%40pcgus.com%7Cc60dc43daa16470c75e408d9dad7018e%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0%7C0%7C637781439308937424%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=pvOnSf0ha2LD6RCXGvdz02bOwX7e7UAmB3zMox29ZRQ%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> *e:* pdlong2@asu.edu
>
> Adaptive Learning Library Consultant
> *org:* EdPlus/ASU
> https://edplus.asu.edu/what-we-do/orchard-adaptive-learning-experience
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fedplus.asu.edu%2Fwhat-we-do%2Forchard-adaptive-learning-experience&data=04%7C01%7Cdward%40pcgus.com%7Cc60dc43daa16470c75e408d9dad7018e%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0%7C0%7C637781439308937424%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=NW8wlciM9h2j34Y8%2Fot2n9INtn%2FTYEbk5GWpSfUy53s%3D&reserved=0>
>
> *SNS:* https://www.linkedin.com/in/longpd
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fedplus.asu.edu%2Fwhat-we-do%2Forchard-adaptive-learning-experience&data=04%7C01%7Cdward%40pcgus.com%7Cc60dc43daa16470c75e408d9dad7018e%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0%7C0%7C637781439308937424%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=NW8wlciM9h2j34Y8%2Fot2n9INtn%2FTYEbk5GWpSfUy53s%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 18, 2022, at 12:06 PM, John, Anil <anil.john@hq.dhs.gov> wrote:
>
>
>
> Given the continuous discussions around centralization/de-centralization
> in our community, I found this essay by Moxie Marlinspike …
>
>
>
> My first impressions of web3
>
> https://moxie..org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.us%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Fmoxie.org%2F2022%2F01%2F07%2Fweb3-first-impressions.html__%3B!!BClRuOV5cvtbuNI!TWHO5okUoNLRfejX8R4fouQNtXHpePRJgCEMSTTdyJyd1YeYLaovlTtxC0oRLOgLPpNr%24__%3B!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!IrG5_q6AE6qea1FemPCOy_y8YEw9na8etw2kGHXAB8UhTKiwV9Y0BRQlLhFxxsU%24&data=04%7C01%7Cdward%40pcgus.com%7Cc60dc43daa16470c75e408d9dad7018e%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0%7C0%7C637781439308937424%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=9ITGovDCsIMkvwTRPf2BUY6Wc4NZJGlF28GkeiZ3wko%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> … to have aspects that have relevance to the DID/VC work.
>
>
>
> If you don’t know who Moxie Marlinspike is, recommend doing a bit of due
> diligence to find out.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
>
> Anil
>
>
>
> Anil John
>
> Technical Director, Silicon Valley Innovation Program
>
> Science and Technology Directorate
>
> US Department of Homeland Security
>
> Washington, DC, USA
>
>
>
> Email Response Time – 24 Hours
>
>
>
> <image002.jpg>
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dhs.gov%2Fscience-and-technology__%3B!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!IrG5_q6AE6qea1FemPCOy_y8YEw9na8etw2kGHXAB8UhTKiwV9Y0BRQlcTnIC1M%24&data=04%7C01%7Cdward%40pcgus.com%7Cc60dc43daa16470c75e408d9dad7018e%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0%7C0%7C637781439308937424%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Z2Sdf03eHLnjySWTwGCrX01Bf4hIC%2F22vE8hg55TYfs%3D&reserved=0>
> <image004.jpg>
>
>
>
>

image001.png
(image/png attachment: image001.png)

image002.png
(image/png attachment: image002.png)

image003.png
(image/png attachment: image003.png)

image004.png
(image/png attachment: image004.png)

Received on Wednesday, 19 January 2022 00:05:14 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thursday, 24 March 2022 20:25:28 UTC