Re: Zoom is shite

I'm sorry that scarce volunteer resources are being consumed by the
infrastructure issues. That said, I'm willing to accept the growing pains
of the Jitsi solution, and I would suggest we continue. IMHO, open source
and open standards are at the core of this community and we need to be
eating our own dog food.

- Adrian

On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 3:05 PM Nikos Fotiou <fotiou@aueb.gr> wrote:

> +1
>
> It’s all about practicality. Otherwise what is next? Move ccg repository
> from the Microsoft owned Github to, I don’t know, may be a blockchain-based
> one?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Nikos
>
>
>
> --
>
> Nikos Fotiou - http://pages.cs.aueb.gr/~fotiou
>
> Researcher - Mobile Multimedia Laboratory
>
> Athens University of Economics and Business
>
> https://mm.aueb.gr
>
>
>
> *From: *Heather Vescent <heathervescent@gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Δευτέρα, 26 Οκτωβρίου 2020 8:34 μμ
> *To: *Yancy <email@yancy.lol>
> *Cc: *W3C Credentials CG (Public List) <public-credentials@w3.org>
> *Subject: *Re: Zoom is shite
>
>
>
> Yancy,
>
>
>
> This idea has been brought up before. However, this practically adds
> operational overhead that IMO doesn't add ROI on the CCG mission. That's my
> opinion and if I was the dictator we'd have switched to Zoom long ago.
> Clearly I am not a dictator and listen to the desires of the community,
> even if they are shitposting.
>
>
>
> It is a balance between ideology and practicality. The CCG Jitsi efforts
> (the chairs, Manu + Jitsi team) has spent significant unpaid resources to:
>
> - Install/re-install/test a CCG Jitsi instance
>
> - Monitor and unpack bugs/crashes/server issues
>
> - Re-stitch code connections to the minutes and CCG infrastructure scripts
> on github
>
> - Deal with real-time critical issues where we had to use Zoom as a fall
> back
>
> - Deal with critical infrastructure updates that caused jitsi to fail for
> a majority of users + troubleshoot, etc
>
>
>
> All of these majorly disrupted 4 meetings. I was planning to use Jitsi for
> our meeting tomorrow when I got word from Manu, that the current system as
> installed was still failing for a non-critical number of users.
>
>
>
> Contrasted with the amount of time the chairs have spent on Zoom: which we
> can confidently count on when Jitsi fails. Maybe 1 hour total from all 3
> chairs.
>
>
>
> For me, this is about practicality and accessibility, not technological
> fundamentalism. It's about enabling the chairs and the community to most
> effectively make positive change in the future of credentials, wallets,
> DIDs, VCs, SSI, e.g. the topic at hand.
>
>
>
> So while I sincerely appreciate your creative problem solving ideas, I am
> a harsh pragmatist about what I think is really actionable, especially
> since I am on the volunteer hook.
>
>
>
> -Heather
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 10:55 AM Yancy <email@yancy.lol> wrote:
>
> Kim,
>
>
>
> It would be healthier imo to investigate contracting out development and
> maintenance of a Jitsi instance to one or more people in the community, or
> pay for a service that is more in agreement with the community ethos.  In
> other-words, lets help pay people for their time for a service we depend.
>
>
>
> Dan -- I still prefer Bitcoin over Gitcoin ;)
>
>
>
> -Yancy
>
>
>
> On 10/26/20 12:36 PM, Daniel Burnett wrote:
>
> This may not be what Yancy had in mind, but GitCoin bounties are an option
> if there are some funds:  https://gitcoin.co/bounties/funder
>
>
>
> Depends on how much we want to open up development to folks outside of the
> community at this stage.  Might be too early.
>
>
>
> -- dan
>
>
>
> *From:* Kim Hamilton <kimdhamilton@gmail.com> <kimdhamilton@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 26, 2020 1:12 PM
> *To:* Yancy <email@yancy.lol> <email@yancy.lol>
> *Cc:* W3C Credentials CG (Public List) <public-credentials@w3.org>
> <public-credentials@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Zoom is shite
>
>
>
> Hi Yancy -- can you share more about what you had in mind?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kim
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 10:03 AM Yancy <email@yancy.lol> <email@yancy.lol>
> wrote:
>
> Previously I volunteered to help with Jitsi integration, and at the time,
> there was discussion about paying for Zoom premium through proceeds from
> DIF for example.  If there is money to allocate for buying premium hosting
> from organizations like Zoom, it seems like we could instead funnel some of
> those proceeds to help pay volunteers to focus their time.  I too would
> like to see a video service that more aligns with the W3C CCG community
> ethos, but I think we can organize our efforts so unpaid volunteers need
> not shoulder the technical burden.
>
> -Yancy
>
> On 10/26/20 11:43 AM, Heather Vescent wrote:
>
> Ryan, Amy,
>
>
>
> Feel free to volunteer to assist in the Jitsi transition. Current unpaid
> volunteers include all three chairs, Manu & the Jitsi team. We are clocking
> minimum 1-7+ hours *each* per week.
>
>
>
> If Jitsi is to be a feasible long term solution, we will need dedicated
> volunteers to navigate/upgrade/fix bugs/etc on an ongoing basis, since I
> don't see operational stability provided by the Jitsi solution. So, as I
> wrote in the first sentence, there is a rich opportunity for _you_ to put
> effort where your typing is and actively support the vision of the future
> you want, rather than complain about not getting your desired experience
> without putting any effort towards it that I have seen to date.
>
>
>
> -Heather
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 2:05 AM rhiaro <amy@rhiaro.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I am also disappointed to not be able to attend due to these reasons
> about Zoom, as I was looking forward to hearing about IIW. I hope
> someone there will be able to take notes, I'll be present in IRC.
>
> Amy
>
> On 26.10.2020. 07:07, Ryan Grant wrote:
> > Hi Everyone,
> >
> > I would like to attend the next W3C-CCG meeting, sure to be full of
> > juicy IIW news, but I won't be able to attend using Zoom, or
> > POTS-routed-through-Zoom.
> >
> > I uninstalled Zoom after their horrible vulnerability in July of 2019.
> >
> >
> https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/8/20687014/zoom-security-flaw-video-conference-websites-hijack-mac-cameras
> >
> >     Today, security researcher Jonathan Leitschuh has publicly
> >     disclosed a serious zero-day vulnerability for the Zoom video
> >     conferencing app on Macs.  He has demonstrated that any website
> >     can open up a video-enabled call on a Mac with the Zoom app
> >     installed.  That's possible in part because the Zoom app
> >     apparently installs a web server on Macs that accepts requests
> >     regular browsers wouldn't.  In fact, if you uninstall Zoom, that
> >     web server persists and can reinstall Zoom without your
> >     intervention.
> >
> > I have never reinstalled it, because you don't make a "mistake" like
> > that if you're moderately culturally aligned with security.
> >
> > I was glad I didn't reinstall it when I found out in April that Zoom
> > was actively using servers under CCP jurisdiction.  You don't make a
> > "mistake" like that if you care about privacy.
> >
> >
> https://www.secureworldexpo.com/industry-news/zoom-traffic-through-china-data-routing-controls
> >
> >     [...]
> >
> >     Zoom was routing some of its virtual meeting traffic, and the
> >     digital keys that keep the meetings confidential, through servers
> >     in China.
> >
> > I was sad today to hear that Zoom is actively censoring paying
> > customers who talk about political things that Zoom does not want
> > discussed.  You don't silence people by "mistake".
> >
> >
> https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/janelytvynenko/zoom-deleted-events-censorship
> >
> >     Zoom Deleted Events Discussing Zoom “Censorship”
> >
> >       The action follows the company canceling an event at San
> >       Francisco State University where Leila Khalid was meant to give
> >       a talk.
> >
> >     on | October 24, 2020
> >     by | Jane Lytvynenko
> >
> >     [...]  “Zoom is committed to supporting the open exchange of ideas
> >     and conversations and does not have any policy preventing users
> >     from criticizing Zoom,” a spokesperson for the company said.
> >
> >     [...]
> >
> >     However, Zoom did not respond to questions about which specific
> >     policy was violated or whether other events have been shut down by
> >     the company.
> >
> >     Adam Saeed, a student at University of Leeds, said he used his
> >     personal Zoom account to organize the event.  He told BuzzFeed
> >     News that the company deleted his event and disabled his account
> >     without explanation.  He contacted the company's customer support
> >     line, but said he has not yet heard back.
> >
> > Sometimes there's a lot of peer pressure to do a Zoom call.
> > I won't make the mistake of attending.
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Heather Vescent <http://www.heathervescent.com/>
>
> Co-Chair, Credentials Community Group @W3C
> <https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/>
>
> President, The Purple Tornado, Inc <https://thepurpletornado.com/>
>
> Author, The Secret of Spies <https://amzn.to/2GfJpXH> (Available Oct 2020)
>
> Author, The Cyber Attack Survival Manual
> <https://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Attack-Survival-Manual-Apocalypse/dp/1681886545/> (revised,
> Dec 2020)
>
> Author, A Comprehensive Guide to Self Sovereign Identity
> <https://ssiscoop.com/>
>
>
>
> @heathervescent <https://twitter.com/heathervescent> | Film Futures
> <https://vimeo.com/heathervescent> | Medium
> <https://medium.com/@heathervescent/> | LinkedIn
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/heathervescent/> | Future of Security Updates
> <https://app.convertkit.com/landing_pages/325779/>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Heather Vescent <http://www.heathervescent.com/>
>
> Co-Chair, Credentials Community Group @W3C
> <https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/>
>
> President, The Purple Tornado, Inc <https://thepurpletornado.com/>
>
> Author, The Secret of Spies <https://amzn.to/2GfJpXH> (Available Oct 2020)
>
> Author, The Cyber Attack Survival Manual
> <https://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Attack-Survival-Manual-Apocalypse/dp/1681886545/> (revised,
> Dec 2020)
>
> Author, A Comprehensive Guide to Self Sovereign Identity
> <https://ssiscoop.com/>
>
>
>
> @heathervescent <https://twitter.com/heathervescent> | Film Futures
> <https://vimeo.com/heathervescent> | Medium
> <https://medium.com/@heathervescent/> | LinkedIn
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/heathervescent/> | Future of Security Updates
> <https://app.convertkit.com/landing_pages/325779/>
>
>
>