Re: Requirements for PDF as container for VC's

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 3:50 PM Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
wrote:

> > In light of this conversation, are there any good SDKs for building thes
> PDFs?
>
> >
>
> Lots!   What are you requirements in terms of commercial vs. free vs. open
> source?  OS platform?  Integration language?   Etc. etc. etc.
>

Show me the money!
Right now, platform is Node backend.
Preferably open source if potential are available.


>
>
>
>
> >Right now we are building PDFs, but basically through images(read
> puppeteer crawling ssr) with a web rendered page.
>
> >
>
> There are SO MANY BETTER ways to create PDF from HTML…
>

Haha love to hear!
Do you have any good pointers so I can read upon it? I did not find any
clear resource at the point of development


>
>
>
>
> Leonard
>
>
>
> *From: *Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin <snorre@diwala.io>
> *Date: *Friday, November 13, 2020 at 3:45 AM
> *To: *Kostas Karasavvas <kkarasavvas@gmail.com>
> *Cc: *Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, "raymond_yeh@tech.gov.sg" <
> raymond_yeh@tech.gov.sg>, "williamc@itr8.com" <williamc@itr8.com>, "
> steve.capell@gmail.com" <steve.capell@gmail.com>, Adrian Gropper <
> agropper@healthurl.com>, Credentials CG <public-credentials@w3.org>, "
> loh_sin_yong@imda.gov.sg" <loh_sin_yong@imda.gov.sg>, "
> maillet_laurent@tech.gov.sg" <maillet_laurent@tech.gov.sg>
> *Subject: *Re: Requirements for PDF as container for VC's
>
>
>
> In light of this conversation, are there any good SDKs for building thes
> PDFs?
>
> Right now we are building PDFs, but basically through images(read
> puppeteer crawling ssr) with a web rendered page. To make the view a bit
> more flexible for us.
>
> But I would be keen to embed the VC info as well.
>
> [image: Image removed by sender.]ᐧ
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 5:11 PM Kostas Karasavvas <kkarasavvas@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Indeed, we also make use of this; i.e. the ability to create the final
> PDFs from a PDF template (form) and the metadata. The latter is used to
> populate the PDFs but we also embed them for future machine-readable
> reference.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 2:50 PM Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
> wrote:
>
> I just want to correct one thing here…
>
>
>
> > When Steve made that statement it is likely a comparison to PDF with
> metadata where it is impossible for the metadata to reflect the data
> represented on the PDF even if the issuer of the PDF wants to.
>
> >It lacks the functionality to merge data and view into a rendered view
> like in OA.
>
> >
>
> Given a 100% compliant PDF processor, this is **NOT TRUE**.   PDF support
> the same ECMAScript (aka JavaScript) language, with an extended DOM, as
> used by the Open Web.  It also supports interactive form fields. The
> combination of those two technology can be used to “merge data into a
> rendered view”.
>
>
>
> Leonard
>
>
>
> *From: *"Raymond YEH (GOVTECH)" <Raymond_YEH@tech.gov.sg>
> *Date: *Monday, November 9, 2020 at 1:29 AM
> *To: *Bill Claxton <williamc@itr8.com>, Steve Capell <
> steve.capell@gmail.com>
> *Cc: *Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, Adrian Gropper <
> agropper@healthurl.com>, "public-credentials@w3.org" <
> public-credentials@w3.org>, "Sin Yong LOH (IMDA)" <
> LOH_Sin_Yong@imda.gov.sg>, "Maillet LAURENT (GOVTECH)" <
> Maillet_LAURENT@tech.gov.sg>
> *Subject: *RE: Requirements for PDF as container for VC's
>
>
>
> Bill Claxton,
>
>
>
> From your question there seemed to be two ongoing concerns:
>
>    1. Misrepresentation of information on the document
>    2. Inability for parties to negotiate on the verifiable credentials
>
>
>
> *Misrepresentation of information on the document*
>
> The framework allows the issuer to render the a human friendly webview
> directly from underlying data. It certainly does not prevent one creating a
> view that is a poor representation of the underlying *data if they are
> incompetent of fraudulent. *
>
>
>
> The very nature of allowing a renderer to present a different view to the
> human is an abstraction of the underlying data to the end user. This is so
> that the end user, who may not be comfortable with JSON, does not need to
> interact with the raw data directly.
>
>
>
> However, as you have pointed out correctly, there is room for incompetent
> or fraudulent parties to misrepresent that data.
>
>
>
> Taking your example further, one incompetent or fraudulent party could
> even issue a certificate in such manner:
>
>    - The renderer is hard-coded to display 4.0 GPA
>    - The document has a `gpa` field showing 3.9
>    - The document has a PDF attached to it showing someone else’s
>    certificate with 3.8 GPA
>    - The transcript’s test results sum up to 3.7 GPA
>
> Here you see a document that cannot even seemed to agree with itself what
> GPA the student has. I implore you to ask the question if this is a problem
> of the framework or simply because of a few problems unrelated to the
> choice of document framework:
>
>    - Bad inputs
>    - Bad controls
>    - Data replication
>
> If the additional level of abstraction is *still* a concern and that the
> viewing party does not need a rendered version of the document, one could
> use a “headless” client for processing and interacting with the document
> without ever passing the document through the renderer.
>
>
>
> Here I want to establish that:
>
>    1. The end user has a choice of using a human readable view or a
>    headless program to perform the processing
>    2. The OA document format does not forbid raw document processing as
>    you would with other types of VC
>    3. The problem with bad document likely lies with incompetent or
>    fraudulent issuers
>
>
>
> When Steve made that statement it is likely a comparison to PDF with
> metadata where it is impossible for the metadata to reflect the data
> represented on the PDF even if the issuer of the PDF wants to. It lacks the
> functionality to merge data and view into a rendered view like in OA.
>
>
>
> *Inability for parties to negotiate on the verifiable credentials*
>
> The document framework is a way to structure data and is not concerned if
> the content in it is factually correct.
>
> Parties are free to negotiate through other channels on the content of the
> document.
>
>
>
> As the document does not become publicly available and searchable, the
> issuing party cannot force the receiving party to submit that incorrect
> document if the receiving party do not wish to. The receiving party can
> also approach the issuing party to reissue the document should they have
> dispute on its content.
>
>
>
> I think your example cites the SkillsFuture implementation of the
> facilities to store and route documents to the citizens directly. Document
> routing and negotiation are not part of the document framework, please do
> not confuse the document with the business processes around the document.
>
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
>
>
>
> This Email is filed in GovTech DRMS
> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdrms.in.tech.gov.sg%2F%3Fxmail-id%3Ddccd597f-b8e5-4b43-916d-3692c22c8810&data=04%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7C1193fe017fcb4e6f3d6a08d887b0722a%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637408539196414696%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=%2F0BsquyYQaMsYuZLbBOYRfyfl5TdFDa%2Fx9xpfgtXa%2Bc%3D&reserved=0>
> [3S-id=dccd597f-b8e5-4b43-916d-3692c22c8810:a0a98837]
>
> *From:* Bill Claxton <williamc@itr8.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, 9 November 2020 11:56 AM
> *To:* Steve Capell <steve.capell@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>; Adrian Gropper <
> agropper@healthurl.com>; public-credentials@w3.org; Raymond YEH (GOVTECH)
> <Raymond_YEH@tech.gov.sg>; Sin Yong LOH (IMDA) <LOH_Sin_Yong@imda.gov.sg>
> *Subject:* Re: Requirements for PDF as container for VC's
>
>
>
> Steve,
>
> I think we should take this outside of the w3 group rather than inviting
> SG govt team to defend their work in this forum.  And if I'm not wrong,
> they would need to accept the public disclosure rules, before commenting.
>
> As we are both implementers of OpenAttestation, there are better forums.
>
> *PS - I am not attacking the OpenAttestation framework, simply pointing
> out that relying parties need to be cautious in what they trust.  Also, I
> need to register my williamc@nextid.com <williamc@nextid.com> email address
> with this forum, rather than using my other company's email.*
>
> Regards, Bill Claxton (williamc@itr8.com)
> Facebook, Skype, MSN, Yahoo, Twitter, Flickr or Gmail: wmclaxton
> Voice, Text or Whatsapp: +65-9012-4327
>
> On 11/9/2020 11:45 AM, Steve Capell wrote:
>
> Hi bill
>
>
>
> Thanks for that comment.  Copying the Singapore tech lead in my response
>
>
>
> I think I disagree with you because I can’t see how the renderer can show
> anything except what is in the credential because there is no other source
> of claim data
>
>
>
> Raymond be able to offer a more specific response
>
> Steven Capell
>
> Mob: 0410 437854
>
>
>
> On 9 Nov 2020, at 2:32 pm, Bill Claxton <williamc@itr8.com>
> <williamc@itr8.com> wrote:
>
> Following...
>
> TL;DR - if you don't know the verification process, beware of what you
> trust.
>
> 1.  I agree with Adrian that "the machine representation [must be] the
> basis of trust".
>
> 2.  I disagree with Steve's assertion: "the Singapore govt open
> attestation framework... ensures the human viewer and machine reader always
> see the same data".  This is not true and is in fact a weakness of their
> verification mechanism.  They do not display the claims made in the JSON
> document so the relying party will not know if the visual and machine
> representation tally.
>
> For example: the displayed presentation of a student degree could include
> mention of 'deans list' which is not supported by the certificate data or
> worse, it may state a 4.0 GPA when the certificate data indicates only a
> 3.8.  The relying party would not notice this unless they inspected the
> credential manually.  Furthermore, they is also a weakness is their
> issuance process in which individuals receive credentials in their wallet
> (ie- the Skills Passport) without confirming accuracy of the data (the
> recipient is never asked).  This opens the possibility of repudiation by
> the recipient in the case they are wrongly awarded a job or a grant on the
> basis of their 4.0 GPA and being on the dean's list, when the credential
> itself indicates otherwise.
>
> This is all off-topic for whether PDFs make a good container for VCs, but
> I thought I should point out these important considerations regarding the
> relationship between the issued credential and its visual representation.
>
> Regards, Bill Claxton (williamc@itr8.com)
> Facebook, Skype, MSN, Yahoo, Twitter, Flickr or Gmail: wmclaxton
> Voice, Text or Whatsapp: +65-9012-4327
>
> On 11/9/2020 9:26 AM, Steve Capell wrote:
>
> So - after all that I think I’ve talked myself out of the idea of PDF as a
> VC container and I’m back to the idea of PDFs contained in VCs that are
> referenced by a QR on the PDF
>
>
>
> There will be some that note the circular reference here.  It’s managed on
> the oracle as issuer side
>
> - for low volume issue, the user uploads their PDF and we present a UI to
> position a generated QR and then they download the PDF with QR and use it
> as normal
>
> - for high volume issue, the calling system first asks our API for the
> link URL / QR, then generates their own PDF before giving it back to us
> together with structured metadata
>
>
>
> I can’t think of a better way to handle this enormously complex millions
> of stakeholders change management process ..
>
> Steven Capell
>
> Mob: 0410 437854
>
>
>
> On 9 Nov 2020, at 12:20 pm, Steve Capell <steve.capell@gmail.com>
> <steve.capell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I should add that, at present, we don’t embed the VC in the PDF - it’s
> actually the other way around
>
> - submitter provides data + PDF to oracle (issuer) who creates the VC and
> stores it as an encrypted file at a public (but unguessable) location :
> repository/uuid.json
>
> - url plus secret key for decrypting the vc is embedded in the QR that
> goes on the PDF.  Theory is that if you are given the PDF with its data
> then you have rights to the digital version at the end of the QR link
>
> - so we finish up with a PDF + QR that is the thing that is shared around
> but isn’t actually the authoritative VC. The PDF is really just the key to
> get the VC
>
>
>
> Because there are so many hops and stakeholders in the supply chain, we
> can’t really Assume (at this stage in vc adoption maturity) that people
> will know what to do with a native digital vc.  So verification works for
> either humans (immature or low volume verifiers) or machines (mature or
> high volume verifiers) as follows
>
> - humans just scan the QR and get taken to a verifier site that they trust
> (typically the exporting country regulator).  The site is a hosted verifier
> and gets the referenced VC (secret key in QR remember), validates it, And
> also presents the originally notarised metadata and PDF - asking the human
> to confirm that they one they are holding is the same as what the verifier
> is showing them
>
> - the machine verifier is typically the importing regulator but could be
> any other high volume user along the way such as a bank.  The holder
> (presenter is maybe a better word) loads then PDF with QR to the verifier
> website such as a national trade single window.  The website extracts the
> QR , retrieves the VC, validates the VC, consumes VC metadata, checks that
> the hash of the presented PDF is the same as the hash of the Attached PDF
> in the VC
>
>
>
> It may seem a bit clunky but the overriding issue is human change
> management.  Even a small economy will produce around 100 million cross
> border VCs in a year - each one going to any one of nearly 200 countries
> and potentially being touched by dozens of different roles.  Count the
> number of exporters and importers around the world and the possible
> combinations of specific entities across that 100m consignments is also in
> the 100’s of millions.  There’s no practical way to engage them all up
> front to change their normal business practice
>
>
>
> So we like PDF as the carrier of the secret key and link and we like
> oracle issued VCs as the thing they link to - because this combination
> seems like the only practical way to take a first step to transform world
> trade
>
>
>
> Hope that makes sense.  Happy to hear alternative suggestions
>
>
>
> Steven Capell
>
> Mob: 0410 437854
>
>
>
> On 9 Nov 2020, at 11:52 am, steve capell <steve.capell@gmail.com>
> <steve.capell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> thanks Leonard,
>
>
>
> >Same way you protect the VC itself – Sign it!
>
>
>
> Except that, in our use case, the VC issuer is the "oracle" (Exporting
> Government Authority) that the verifier (Importing Government Authority)
> trusts.  But the PDF is created by some other party in the exporting
> jurisdiction.  So, even if they sign it, the signing identity won't match
> the VC issuer identity.  Basically the verifier can check that it is signed
> and that the signature is valid - but it doesnt really help because the
> verifier doesnt know the PDF creator.
>
>
>
> We are using the oracle as issuer VC model because to do otherwise would
> impose more complexity on both the regulated community in the exporting
> jurisdiction and on the verifier - to follow and confirm the trust chain
> via a set of linked / embedded VCs.  This is a better future state but
> seems too much of a leap to start with.
>
>
>
> AS for not putting verification data on the human consumable form, that
> also imposes too much of a leap for such a diverse set of stakeholders in
> the internaitonal supply chain.
>
>
>
> Thinking about it, I think the best way is for the oracle as issuer
> (exporting government) to notarise the PDF and include the hash of the pdf
> attachment in the VC.  then the verifier can just confirm that the hash of
> the PDF they are holding is the same as the hash of the PDF that the oracle
> notarised.
>
>
>
> no?
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 at 11:24, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com> wrote:
>
> > In the ideal world there are no PDFs that you need to trust, there is
> only data that the machine you trust can verify
>
> >
>
> You and I live in different ideal worlds 😊.
>
>
>
>
>
> > The attack vector that I’m trying to figure out a simple way to mitigate
> is where Malik manipulates the PDF rendered information without touching
> the (linked or embedded) VC
>
> >
>
> Same way you protect the VC itself – Sign it!   Apply a standard DigSig to
> the PDF – most likely one that is PAdES compliant for better acceptance
> world-wide.
>
>
>
> The other thing to consider is how technology/approaches such as the
> Content Authenticity Initiative (https://contentauthenticity.org/
> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcontentauthenticity.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7C1193fe017fcb4e6f3d6a08d887b0722a%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637408539196424686%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=aV%2FPYDI4f7v9mNMs6Agj2VgpzSxPV0Oxh22cZU6XQRo%3D&reserved=0>)
> can also be applied here to establish provenance of the document and its
> content throughout its lifecycle.
>
>
>
>
>
> > The community “learns” that a QR on a PDF means it is verifiable and
> when you see a green tick on scanning the QR, you look no further
>
> >
>
> Yes, this is why standards such as PAdES Part 6 are very clear about *
> *not** putting any form of validation information in the content of the
> page.  Too easy for forge.
>
>
>
>
>
> Leonard
>
>
>
> *From: *Steve Capell <steve.capell@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 5:40 PM
> *To: *Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com>
> *Cc: *Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, Bill Claxton <
> williamc@itr8.com>, "public-credentials@w3.org" <public-credentials@w3.org
> >
> *Subject: *Re: Requirements for PDF as container for VC's
>
>
>
> Yes I think the machine version has to be the basis of trust.  In the
> ideal world there are no PDFs that you need to trust, there is only data
> that the machine you trust can verify
>
>
>
> The attack vector that I’m trying to figure out a simple way to mitigate
> is where Malik manipulates the PDF rendered information without touching
> the (linked or embedded) VC. Let’s say the VCs are a certificate of origin
> and a commercial invoice.  These documents can change hands many times
> between issuer and verifier.  Manufacturer, exporter, forwarder, carrier,
> financial service provider, bank, insurer, importer, customs agent,
> regulator - just a sampling of parties, any one of which could be Malik
>
>
>
> Today, there is only paper and people may verify the bit of paper by
> calling up the issuer.  A time consuming and expensive process
>
>
>
> In the end state, machines that people Trust algorithmically verify the VC
> data.  Much better.
>
>
>
> It’s the intermediate state that worries me.  Sometimes people look at the
> paper (PDF) version of the data supposedly in the vc and sometimes machines
> verify the vc.  The community “learns” that a QR on a PDF means it is
> verifiable and when you see a green tick on scanning the QR, you look no
> further.  This is the danger window.  And a few spectacular attacks could
> kill the whole VC framework in an industry sector
>
> Steven Capell
>
> Mob: 0410 437854
>
>
>
> On 9 Nov 2020, at 9:14 am, Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com> wrote:
>
> By analogy with DID resolution, I can't imagine how anything other than
> the machine representation could be the basis of trust. (trying to avoid
> the master language).
>
>
>
> It's then up to the verifier to confirm any human-consumable
> representation that is offered to them. They could send the PDF to a
> trusted resolver for confirmation or they could run a transform locally.
>
>
>
> If the issuer wants to sign the human-consumable representation, it should
> be up to them to use a transform they trust and they could really be
> signing just the machine readable version anyway because they trust their
> transformer.
>
>
>
> Can it be any other way?
>
>
>
> Adrian
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 3:52 PM Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
> wrote:
>
> I realized after writing that my comment on #2 was not accessibility
> friendly.  It really should be “human consumable representation” since the
> content may be consumed in non-visible representations for the same purpose.
>
>
>
> Leonard
>
>
>
> *From: *Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
> *Date: *Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 4:49 PM
> *To: *Steve Capell <steve.capell@gmail.com>
> *Cc: *Bill Claxton <williamc@itr8.com>, "public-credentials@w3.org" <
> public-credentials@w3.org>
> *Subject: *Re: Requirements for PDF as container for VC's
> *Resent-From: *<public-credentials@w3.org>
> *Resent-Date: *Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 4:48 PM
>
>
>
> Steven – we have to be careful to not to conflate issues…
>
>
>
> 1 – Can a machine determine if the data being used for presentation
> directly matches that used as “data”?   That problem can be solved by
> either have a single set of data that is used in both cases – though I am
> not aware of any situation where that is the case – in all cases there is a
> TRANSFORM from one to the other.  So if you aren’t using the same data,
> then you need a way to “connect the dots” so that it is clear what part of
> the presentation matches what part of the data.  PDF supports that using
> semantic tagging of content (as I showed in my presentation).
>
>
>
> 2 – Can a human determine if the data is correct?  Yes, by having a human
> visible representation the human verified that what they see is what they
> expect.
>
>
>
> 3 – Determine which representation – human or machine – is the “master”.
> In the eInvoicing standards of the EU, the machine readable XML is the
> master copy and the PDF presentation si just that – human readable
> presentation.  I would expect that in our VC cases the same would be true.
> No?
>
>
>
> Leonard
>
>
>
> *From: *Steve Capell <steve.capell@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 4:09 PM
> *To: *Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
> *Cc: *Bill Claxton <williamc@itr8.com>, "public-credentials@w3.org" <
> public-credentials@w3.org>
> *Subject: *Re: Requirements for PDF as container for VC's
>
>
>
> As you all probably already know, the Singapore govt open attestation
> framework has a nice way of separating an issuer defined tenderer from the
> vc payload - which ensures the human viewer and machine reader always see
> the same data
>
>
>
> Of course the problem is that the verifier needs a link to the rendered
> view and that is often a QR on a PDF. But in that case there is no
> guarantee that the data on the PDF page is the same as the data in the
> linked VC - other than a human “yep, they look the same” eyeball.
>
>
>
> I’m not a PDF expert but I note that even the EU / German e-invoicing
> franework seems to have the same problem.  The XML data is attached to the
> PDF as meta data but there’s nothing to guarantee that the values in the
> xml (eg amounts and bank details) are the same as what’s in the PDF view.
> That opens up rather obvious avenues for fraud.
>
>
>
> Have I misunderstood? Does someone have a solution that can ensure that
> PDF rendered data is the same as PDF attached metadata ?
>
> Steven Capell
>
> Mob: 0410 437854
>
>
>
> On 9 Nov 2020, at 2:08 am, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com> wrote:
>
> Bill, thanks for sharing.  I read your evaluation link and there is a lot
> of good stuff there.   However, I am surprised that your concerns about PDF
> are around layout and rendering – since in that case, PDF is a better
> solution since the layout is defined by the issuer and the renderer simply
> follows the rules of ISO 32000.  So there is never a question about the
> rendering not matching what the issuer desires.
>
>
>
> However, I think you have an item later on that is more relevant and we
> should consider the importance of:
>
> > How do you assure that what’s in the layout matches the JSON data?
>
>
>
> Although I would change that to not be the layout (since the layout, or
> what I would call presentation) but instead be the data presented.
>
>
>
> Leonard
>
>
>
> *From: *Bill Claxton <williamc@itr8.com>
> *Date: *Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 8:35 AM
> *To: *"public-credentials@w3.org" <public-credentials@w3.org>
> *Subject: *Re: Requirements for PDF as container for VC's
> *Resent-From: *<public-credentials@w3.org>
> *Resent-Date: *Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 8:32 AM
>
>
>
> Kostas, hi -
>
> We spoke recently about this and I'm following the thread to see what the
> community thinks.  Happy that you're getting lots of input.
>
> I thought you may want to review my recent article "Evaluating
> Decentralised Identity Projects
> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwmclaxton.medium.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7C1193fe017fcb4e6f3d6a08d887b0722a%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637408539196434678%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=yXsbPEZEQs%2FOEXZG5HpsRUOhesaMo%2FAZ2mc7H9x5aP4%3D&reserved=0>".
> It's a sort of reviewer's guide for decentralised identity apps.  In
> particular, I would draw your attention to the point: "Have you separated
> layout from the rendering application, so that 3rd-parties (including
> verifiers) can render your certs?"  I intend to write a follow up about
> presentation layer and mention PDF encapsulation as an alternative, but one
> I am not much in favor of, for the reasons we discussed.
>
> *PS - For anyone else reading this thread, I was a PDF evangelist back in
> the early days of v4 and v5.  I am familiar with the encapsulation methods
> and indeed used them for a National Archives project in Singapore.*
>
> Regards, Bill Claxton (williamc@itr8.com)
> Facebook, Skype, MSN, Yahoo, Twitter, Flickr or Gmail: wmclaxton
> Voice, Text or Whatsapp: +65-9012-4327
>
> On 11/8/2020 5:17 PM, Kostas Karasavvas wrote:
>
> Hi Leonard,
>
>
>
> Thanks for initiating this. I have been thinking of this as well.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 3:23 AM Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
> wrote:
>
> Kicking off some discussions here – I’d like to start by putting down what
> I think are some “primary” requirements for the use of PDF in this
> context.  Am I missing anything?  Do you disagree with any of these?
> Feedback welcome!!
>
>
>
> *## Requirements*
>
>
>
> - Shall store the VC in native JSON-LD (w/optional compression)
>
> - VC should be in an easily accessible location (for both reading &
> writing)
>
>
>
> Agree. And JSON-LD is what we intend to use. There could also be a
> 'serialization/type' option to specify the serialization to accommodate
> other use cases (XML? CBOR-LD?), if need be.
>
>
>
> - Should require no language changes to PDF (except "metadata"-like
> values)
>
>     - implies compatibility with both PDF 1.7 and 2.0
>
>
>
> Agree. I assume that PDF 1.7 implies compatibility with older versions as
> well?
>
>
>
> - Shall be usable in conjunction with standard PDF Signing/Certification
>
>
>
> Makes sense. I have questions here wrt the PDF spec and how signing is
> happening (the 'hole' in the file approach) but these are for later.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Kostas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Leonard
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Konstantinos A. Karasavvas
>
> Software Architect, Blockchain Engineer, Researcher, Educator
>
> https://twitter.com/kkarasavvas
> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fkkarasavvas&data=04%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7C1193fe017fcb4e6f3d6a08d887b0722a%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637408539196434678%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=CYi2UYBDAghydaM3sInskKWB1lHYNBhgpY1y59m6xb8%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Steve Capell
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Konstantinos A. Karasavvas
>
> Software Architect, Blockchain Engineer, Researcher, Educator
>
> https://twitter.com/kkarasavvas
> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fkkarasavvas&data=04%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7C1193fe017fcb4e6f3d6a08d887b0722a%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637408539196444679%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=nnIu%2Fob0dEe0P9xmEonm%2F6xIiI9bg9E1OO7rzBq6DdA%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin*
>
> Co-Founder & CTO, Diwala
>
> +47 411 611 94
> www.diwala.io
> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.diwala.io%2F&data=04%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7C1193fe017fcb4e6f3d6a08d887b0722a%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637408539196444679%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=yzov%2FLTlwdg6%2BV6IseLPVk1oDTgJBnNjBPfsl09O518%3D&reserved=0>
>


-- 

*Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin*
Co-Founder & CTO, Diwala
+47 411 611 94
www.diwala.io
ᐧ