RE: [MINUTES] W3C Credentials CG Call - 2020-12-15 12pm ET

Thanks Amy!  It was a pleasure sharing our thinking with you, and I'm so glad you found it useful.

Attaching the PDF of the slides here.

Lisa

-----Original Message-----
From: rhiaro <amy@rhiaro.co.uk> 
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 1:37 AM
To: public-credentials@w3.org
Subject: Re: [MINUTES] W3C Credentials CG Call - 2020-12-15 12pm ET

I thought this presentation was brilliant, the work is refreshingly well thought-out, and hit all the right notes. Thanks so much Lisa! Does anyone have a link to the slides?

Cheers,

Amy

On 15.12.2020. 20:29, W3C CCG Chairs wrote:
> Thanks to Manu Sporny and Amy Guy for scribing this week! The minutes 
> for this week's Credentials CG telecon are now available:
>
> https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2020-12-15

>
> Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
> Audio from the meeting is available as well (link provided below).
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Credentials CG Telecon Minutes for 2020-12-15
>
> Agenda:
>   
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2020Dec/0080.h

> tml
> Topics:
>   1. Introductions / Reintroductions
>   2. Announcements and Reminders
>   3. Me2B Alliance
> Organizer:
>   Kim Hamilton Duffy and Wayne Chang and Heather Vescent
> Scribe:
>   Manu Sporny and Amy Guy
> Present:
>   Charles E. Lehner, Wayne Chang, Heather Vescent, Manu Sporny, Kim 
>   Hamilton Duffy, Ted Thibodeau, James Chartrand, Ryan Grant, Amy 
>   Guy, Adrian Gropper, Dmitri Zagidulin, Erica Connell, Lisa 
>   LeVasseur
> Audio:
>   https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2020-12-15/audio.ogg

>
> Kim Hamilton Duffy: https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/join

> Kim Hamilton Duffy: https://www.w3.org/accounts/request

> Kim Hamilton Duffy: 
>   https://www.w3.org/community/about/agreements/cla/

> Kim Hamilton Duffy: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/

> <rgrant> preset+
> Manu Sporny is scribing.
>
> Topic: Introductions / Reintroductions
>
> Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Anyone new to the call that would like to 
>   introduce themselves?
> No takers.
> Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Reintroductions, then.
> Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Dmitri, do you mind reintroducing yourself?
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Hi everyone, Dmitri software Engineer w/ 
>   Digital Bazaar -- active in VC/DID/Confidential storage -- 
>   contributing to related Javascript libraries.
>
> Topic: Announcements and Reminders
>
> Kim Hamilton Duffy: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/announcements/

> Kim Hamilton Duffy:  This is the last meeting of the year Kim Hamilton 
> Duffy:  Every Tuesday we have this weekly call... we
>   have VC EDU task force -- meeting every Monday 8am PT -- Kim 
> Hamilton Duffy:  DID Resolution also on Monday weekly 1pm PT Kim 
> Hamilton Duffy:  Confidential Storage, with DIF, Thursday
>   1-2pm PT
> Wayne Chang:  First is call for objections to infrastructure Task 
>   force -- work items dependent on group existing, npm package 
>   management, reduce burden on chairs, object/support on Github 
>   issue below.
> Wayne Chang:  Starting in January 5th -- first meeting of new 
>   year -- have a conflict -- decision is to see if there is 
>   interest in separate meeting time -- availability in general, few 
>   suggested slots, move it a day, etc.
> Wayne Chang:  Feedback, respond to thread.
> <heathervescent> I can go over the chair job description if 
>   interested
> Kim Hamilton Duffy:  We do have an upcoming Chair election... if 
>   you are interested, reach out to current chairs -- Heather has 
>   been working on Chair job description which gives you some idea 
>   on how the sausage making happens.
> Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Items that Heather and Wayne may want to go 
>   through... next.
> Kim Hamilton Duffy:  VC PRs under maintenance Charter... talked 
>   about this last week.
> Kim Hamilton Duffy:  It's not clear where this issue needs to 
>   live now.
> Amy Guy is scribing.
> Manu Sporny:  It still needs to live in the ccg, there's no 
>   better place for it
>   ... we need to have a call
>   ... I don't feel like we're making good progress on the issue, 
>   there are too many unknown details
>   ... after tholidays we should convene a meeting between the 
>   leadership and communities and nail the process down so w3c staff 
>   is happy
> Manu Sporny:  We need to have a meeting between Chairs, Editors 
>   of all of these communities to make progress. [scribe assist by 
>   Manu Sporny]
> Heather Vescent:  Update - productive call w/ wayne last week - 
>   discussing issues -- main concern w/ scope - did a high level 
>   audit of all systems... based on audit -- current activities and 
>   desired for potential future things (VC PR maintenance stuff), 
>   next step is to wayne to identify items in audit to be in scope 
>   of infrastructure task force. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Heather 
> Vescent:  Wayne and I are going to talk later this week
>   about getting specific about scope of infrastructure TF and what 
>   that will cover to address concerns I raised. Part of 
>   conversation includes where this goes... 170 -- infrastructure or 
>   elsewhere. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Kim Hamilton Duffy:  What 
> about #3 -- outstanding objection for
>   proposal? [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Heather Vescent:  W3C 
> infrastructure has a strong objection
>   model, which I think is a masculine bias in W3C infra, won't 
>   fight that in this group... will discuss in diversity and 
>   inclusion group at W3C... moving to positive work environment 
>   group... [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Heather Vescent:  I will 
> address the note on #3 - I'll update
>   that. We need to make sure that anything in this issue is 
>   accounted for. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Note that the 
> inclusion and diversity group is not closing, the
>   pwe is combining with it because there is a lot of joint 
>   membership, and both groups will be chartered into one Heather 
> Vescent:  I'm not 100% behind on infrastructure task
>   force still, working w/ Wayne to address all my concerns. [scribe 
>   assist by Manu Sporny]
> Heather Vescent:  I am not full speed ahead on Infrastructure 
>   Task Force, I'm full speed ahead on addressing the concerns. 
>   [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
> Kim Hamilton Duffy:  This one is in proposed status for a while 
>   -- after you do that, we have one week for objections -- if you 
>   can do that as soon as possible, then we could move forward with 
>   it. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
> Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Npm repository ... is it a  part of 
>   Infrastrcuture Task Force? [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Wayne 
> Chang:  If Infrastructure Task Force is created, it will
>   deal w/ npm governance. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Kim Hamilton 
> Duffy:  We need to clarify whether or not this is in
>   scope. Calling out expectations might be something we need to 
>   do... task force might take that on. [scribe assist by Manu 
>   Sporny]
> Wayne Chang:  Test suites, reference data, those are initial low 
>   risk, low stakes that we'd like to see there, instead of stuff 
>   that's in a production build chain. [scribe assist by Manu 
>   Sporny]
> Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Happy for this, moving things forward. 
>   [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
> Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Moving on to the highlight. [scribe assist 
>   by Manu Sporny]
>
> Topic: Me2B Alliance
>
> Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Over to Lisa... [scribe assist by Manu 
>   Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  Thank you for listening in today -- want to 
>   focus on Me2B alliance and the work that this group is doing. 
>   [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  Key thing we've learned, we don't have right 
>   vocabulary to talk about relationships in digital world... 
>   sharing about proposed language and terminology that we've come 
>   up with. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa LeVasseur:  One of the 
> things I wanted to do is information
>   share with this group... slide 2 - note to self, mission of group 
>   is important [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa LeVasseur:  Agenda 
> slide - Who are we, what do we do --
>   lifecycle, credentials, deals. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa 
> LeVasseur:  Wrap up with Me2B and credentials and a couple
>   of questions -- things that you might be able to clarify for me. 
>   [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  Our Ethos slide - respectful technologies are 
>   better for both Me-s and B-s. We are more Me focused because of 
>   the current power dynamics in industry. [scribe assist by Manu 
>   Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  Our Mission slide - Current working version of 
>   mission. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa LeVasseur:  Background 
> in mobile telecom standards -
>   sometimes markets are created through standards... what if we 
>   created a different kind of standard that's not technical, but 
>   has ethical/behavioral considerations... create standard, create 
>   certification, drive demand, create market choices... that is 
>   idealized. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa LeVasseur:  It's not 
> easy [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa LeVasseur:  That is the 
> founding vision -- we used to
>   describe ourselves as good housekeeping... that's not what we're 
>   about.. . more like independent crash testing institute... 
>   instead of testing cars, we're looking for potential harms and 
>   risks. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa LeVasseur:  Digital Harms 
> dictionary - continuing to build
>   it out... modify over time... focus on harms. [scribe assist by 
>   Manu Sporny]
> <manu> Independent crash testing institute slide <manu> Ethical north 
> star slide Lisa LeVasseur:  We spent a good time contemplating what 
> our
>   ethical north star -- come up with universal ethic, perhaps a 
>   fools errand... but do we want to mirror behaviros of healthy 
>   human relationships? [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa LeVasseur:  
> We've taken aspects of healthy human
>   relationships and adapted them... [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] 
> <manu> Me2B Rules of Engagement slide Lisa LeVasseur:  These are tests 
> in our testing rubric... not
>   going to read through them, but do want to call out a couple of 
>   things... haven't said data or privacy yet, deliberate... those 
>   words are too narrow. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa LeVasseur:  
> What you'll see here are respective
>   boundaries... privacy is one such boundary -- respectful defaults 
>   [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  Precursor to relationship state... [scribe 
>   assist by Manu Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  Really crucial for technology -- this rule, is 
>   in absence of stated preferences, default to certain behavior. 
>   [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  This comes out of social norms... when we meet 
>   someone for first time, we withhold things. [scribe assist by 
>   Manu Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  Apply these rules to products/services -- 
>   products/services are not obeying rule of respectful defaults. 
>   [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
> <manu> Me-Manifesto slide
> Lisa LeVasseur:  There is the Me-Manifesto... still wordsmithing 
>   it -- pretty good... We assert our rights, I'm in charge, We play 
>   nice. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa LeVasseur:  We're doing 
> early certification -- took a long
>   time to build out testing rubric -- table stakes testing 
>   criteria... doing early certification with friendlies since 
>   mid-year. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa LeVasseur:  Has been 
> hugely illuminating... proper
>   commercial launch next year. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa 
> LeVasseur:  3 Key principles... assert rights, in charge,
>   play nice. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Adrian Gropper: Here are 
> two links (in my tweet) relevant to
>   governance of controller-processor interoperability 
>   https://twitter.com/agropper/status/1338832808463233025

> <manu> It's Really "We" slide
> Lisa LeVasseur:  Ethos is not individualistic, recognizes 
>   interdependence, healthy societies need respectful 
>   relationships... don't expect we'll do sustainability testing on 
>   tech, but others will... important to consider for well being. 
>   [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
> <manu> Me2B Relationship in digital world slide Lisa LeVasseur:  
> Deliberate relationships - multiple
>   touchpoints... interaction w/ business (legal)... and then 
>   connected products and services. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa 
> LeVasseur:  Connected products and services, brand
>   ambassadors -- connected, available, smart -- humanesque part to 
>   connected products and services... building up valance of 
>   love/hate/whatever -- coloring our idea about brand and business 
>   itself... squirrel-y today [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Kim 
> Hamilton Duffy: Rhiaro found this me2b url:
>   https://me2ba.org/ (the other one wasn't loading) <manu> Me2B 
> Relationship Layers slide Lisa LeVasseur:  Unbox iPhone... create 
> Legal relationship w/
>   Apple. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa LeVasseur:  Then 
> experiential Relationship w/ iPhone...
>   (this is all experimental language, still working through it) 
>   [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  At this point, there is a valance... feeling 
>   about the product. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa LeVasseur:  
> But what's also happening... Hidden
>   Affiliates... 3rd party integrations... these entities are 
>   unknown [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa LeVasseur:  Let's say 
> she downloads Chrome browser... then
>   legal relationship created w/ Google. [scribe assist by Manu 
>   Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  Starts to use browser... experiential 
>   relationship w/ Chrome browser... phone is Me2T - technology 
>   enabler [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Adrian Gropper: Here's the 
> new Apple Privacy App Store privacy
>   labeling: 
>   https://developer.apple.com/app-store/app-privacy-details/

> Lisa LeVasseur:  Interacting w/ brand ambassador - Google... 
>   hidden affiliates grow... even more now - Googles and Apples 
>   [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  Using browser, navigate to Instagram. [scribe 
>   assist by Manu Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  Creates legal relationship with... who? Who's 
>   the business... [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] <manu> Instagram 
> login site slide Lisa LeVasseur:  Who's the business? It's not 
> Instagram... it's
>   Facebook... lines are blurry on these relationships, it's 
>   confusing... acknowledge that it's a bit of a contrived example. 
>   Once again, subjected to hidden affiliates stack... native device 
>   monitoring, chrome browser monitoring, keeps stacking up... 
>   relationships... test clarify scope of testing, we needed some 
>   language to describe landscape of this. [scribe assist by Manu 
>   Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  Saying Me2B covers ALL of layered relationships 
>   and touchpoints, because all touchpoints need to be respectful. 
>   [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  Moving on into relationship lifecycle... Me2B 
>   Relationship lifecycle model... [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] 
> Adrian Gropper: Apple adopted the first 3 of my (PPR) label
>   suggestion to them in 2018. https://ssrn.com/abstract=3439701 
>   They did not adopt the last two :-)
> Lisa LeVasseur:  Taken from human relationship model, adapting it 
>   for use for Me2B [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] <manu> Me2B 
> Relationship Lifecycle Model slide Lisa LeVasseur:  Skipping over 
> physical world, focusing more on
>   digital world -- all can understand processes and understandings 
>   of these stages... how we get into state of being very committed 
>   ... use service on regular basis. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] 
> Lisa LeVasseur:  No relationship is ever clean, no model is every
>   perfect... we realize that... apply social norms to digital 
>   commitments. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa LeVasseur:  What 
> this really looks like is an EKG, not a
>   mountain... tool for understanding how we can get more specific 
>   in our testing/scoping... test behavior of technology... within 
>   digital Me2B Commitments, what are those? [scribe assist by Manu 
>   Sporny]
> <manu> Spectrum of Me2B Commitments
> Lisa LeVasseur:  There are a spectrum of specific transactions 
>   and agreements that we make in the digital world... this can be 
>   understood as states... not perfectly states [scribe assist by 
>   Manu Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  When we do our testing, for example... 
>   expectations of individuals... very first open of app/website, 
>   we're measuring that behavior to see what's going on... nothing 
>   sneaky going on - no commitment commitment. [scribe assist by 
>   Manu Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  This is the starting point [scribe assist by 
>   Manu Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  Then cookie consent... location consent... that 
>   might appear in different way [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa 
> LeVasseur:  Promotional communication commitment... loyalty
>   program commitment... [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa LeVasseur:  
> One-off Transaction... do one thing, then go on
>   our way. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa LeVasseur:  Me2B 
> "Marriage" -- a lot of people don't like
>   this phrase, working phrase, effective as a metaphor... we'll see 
>   if it stands up. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa LeVasseur:  We 
> are testing data minimization in these
>   things... individual has agency to enroll/unenroll of all these 
>   commitments, no strings attached in commitments. Digital Me2B 
>   marriage, when individual establishes an account. [scribe assist 
>   by Manu Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  "I like it, so I create an account" [scribe 
>   assist by Manu Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  That is the marriage... account creation. 
>   [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  The hallmark of this is signaling to the 
>   business that you want to be remembered, recognized, responded to 
>   (from functional identity) [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa 
> LeVasseur:  At end of it, I delete my account... divorce --
>   I am forgotten... account deletion. [scribe assist by Manu 
>   Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  Idealized mapping of two main states of being in 
>   a marriage and not being in a marriage. [scribe assist by Manu 
>   Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  When I'm logged in, I'm in the marriage... when 
>   I'm not logged in, there is no Me2B marriage... have reasonable 
>   expectation to be anonymous... from human perspective... how your 
>   life is when you window shop in real world. [scribe assist by 
>   Manu Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  If you walk into store for first time and 
>   someone called you by name, that would be creepy... would violate 
>   the expectation of anonymity. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa 
> LeVasseur:  When you are not logged in, there is an
>   expectation of anonymity. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa 
> LeVasseur:  Other commitments that we make... mapped on arc,
>   sign up for promotional communication... the accepting cookies, 
>   describing a browser or website... we are testing websites and 
>   apps... when you're navigating through websites, this accepting 
>   cookies comes early, that is a commitment. [scribe assist by Manu 
>   Sporny]
> <manu> "But it's complicated" slide.
> Lisa LeVasseur:  There is this consented pseudonymous state... 
>   you are temporarily remembered, recognized, responded to... but 
>   you're not "identified" [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa 
> LeVasseur:  You actually /are/ identified, want to talk more
>   about that... at end... but there is a huge data channel here... 
>   didn't know this existed until recently... langauage of the data 
>   layer, this noxious data flow that's happening under radar of 
>   individual. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa LeVasseur:  Our 
> idealized version of this doesn't point out
>   that today this happens overtly... the invisible layer. [scribe 
>   assist by Manu Sporny]
> <manu> Me2B Deal slide
> Lisa LeVasseur:  For every one of these commitments, site wants 
>   to use location, these are the cookies, will you let us... for 
>   each of those commitments, there is a deal... what am I going to 
>   give, what am I going to get? [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa 
> LeVasseur:  There is inherent fair value given for fair
>   value taken... looking for flagrant information collection... to 
>   determine if it's a fair exchange... there is a personal quid pro 
>   quo calculus. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa LeVasseur:  Am I 
> comfortable exchanging this information, is
>   it a fair exchange? [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] <manu> 
> Credentials and Me2B Lisa LeVasseur:  Going back to mission of 
> credentials...
>   synergies -- has to do w/ idea of "I'm in charge". [scribe assist 
>   by Manu Sporny]
> Mostly the answer is no it isn't a fair exchange but I have no 
>   other options here D:
> Lisa LeVasseur:  There is a design fiction ... I'm in charge -- 
>   relationship lifecycle model slide. [scribe assist by Manu 
>   Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  Also, we care about bringing your own privacy 
>   terms, permissions... working on IEEE personal privacy terms. 
>   [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  This is where most synergy lives. [scribe assist 
>   by Manu Sporny]
> <manu> Questions slide
> Lisa LeVasseur:  Interested in credentials in Me2B marriage... 
>   Credentials vs. Identifiers -- first and 3rd parties, throughout 
>   relationship... pseudonymous cookie consent state. [scribe assist 
>   by Manu Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  Internal identifiers are used on ongoing data 
>   collection/correlation/collection... service needs to be able to 
>   construct those personal responses... 3rd party, universal 
>   cross-platform IDs, real problem, testing is exposing these 
>   things... fundamentals to adtech and martech. [scribe assist by 
>   Manu Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  Wonder how much you've thought about this stuff 
>   -- not up to date on these discussions... wanted to leave w/ this 
>   question about this stuff... how does it fit into user controlled 
>   credentials. That's what I had. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Kim 
> Hamilton Duffy:  Great, thank you -- questions? [scribe
>   assist by Manu Sporny]
> Adrian Gropper:  Spend half of my time in standards and other 
>   half in advocacy/governance -- in context of this group -- 
>   separation of concerns, have power to specify in term of interop, 
>   teaches us that controllers should be separate from processors, 
>   and regulators should be separate from certifiers. [scribe assist 
>   by Manu Sporny]
> Adrian Gropper:  One of the ways to think about this -- 
>   controller in GDPR sense of delegate [scribe assist by Manu 
>   Sporny]
> Adrian Gropper:  Service provider only gets authorizations... 
>   that's something that regulators/certifiers can build on. [scribe 
>   assist by Manu Sporny]
> Manu Sporny:  Thanks Lisa, this is all really fantastic stuff, 
>   very much aligned with the kind of tings that this group is 
>   concerned with and thinking deeply about
>   ... this is mostly an urge for you to engage more with the 
>   community
>   ... you ask some really great questions and we can't answer 
>   them in this time
>   ... but we are grappling with those questions
>   ... a lot of the slide deck is very aligned with current 
>   thinking in the group
>   ... but there's no-one that is really focussed on it
>   ... we tend to focus too much on the tech side and not enough 
>   on the certification, testing, understanding what these 
>   relationships are and creating languages to express it in the 
>   market
>   ... the question you're asking about identity and identifiers 
>   vs credentials, there are a lot of different angles on that
>   ... what we have tried to do as adrian mentioned is separate 
>   these things to the biggest degree possible so we can understand 
>   each one
>   ... at greater depth and then compose them together in 
>   appropriate ways
>   ... ripping the thing apart into its atomic components and 
>   building new molecules that are fit for purpose
>   ... the language that you are using and have generated can 
>   really help this community
>   ... I wouldn't want to see you present and then go off 
>   somewhere else. A plea to figure out some way to get the work you 
>   presented more directly integrated with the work we ar edoing, it 
>   can do a lot of good in this group
> Lisa LeVasseur:  Great, thank you, will engage -- we are open for 
>   business, membership is open... in a soft launch, platform has 
>   some bugs, but are working through those... if you'd like to 
>   join, please join and follow along certification WG. [scribe 
>   assist by Manu Sporny]
> Lisa LeVasseur:  Know some people that are in call... would love 
>   to figure out ways to keep this connection fresh and alive. 
>   [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
> Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Thank you, agreed - there are increasing 
>   opportunities as well -- DHS wallet design challenge, more 
>   product focused... user interaction flow, testing and 
>   certification, both process and specifics would be interested in 
>   exploring in context of wallets. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Kim 
> Hamilton Duffy:  Thank you again Lisa for the great
>   discussion and topics that it brings up, looking forward to 
>   continuing to collaborate. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny] Lisa 
> LeVasseur:  Thank you looking forward to collaborating
>   further. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
>
>