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[MINUTES] W3C Credentials CG Call - 2020-12-08 12pm ET

From: W3C CCG Chairs <w3c.ccg@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:17:10 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <5fd3c5b6.1c69fb81.3727e.4fc0@mx.google.com>
Thanks to Adrian Gropper for scribing this week! The minutes
for this week's Credentials CG telecon are now available:

https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2020-12-08 

Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio from the meeting is available as well (link provided below).

----------------------------------------------------------------
Credentials CG Telecon Minutes for 2020-12-08

Agenda:
  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2020Dec/0066.html
Topics:
  1. Introductions and reintro
  2. Action Items
  3. Infrastructure task Force
  4. Generative Identity
Organizer:
  Heather Vescent and Wayne Chang and Kim Hamilton Duffy
Scribe:
  Adrian Gropper
Present:
  Ted Thibodeau, Philip Sheldrake, Wayne Chang, Kim Hamilton Duffy, 
  Mike Prorock, Kaliya Young, Brent Zundel, Kerri Lemoie, Manu 
  Sporny, Adrian Gropper, Heather Vescent, Taylor Kendall, Phil 
  Archer, Kostas Karasavvas, Ryan Grant, Orie Steele, Mike 
  Schwartz, Charles E. Lehner, Drummond Reed
Audio:
  https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2020-12-08/audio.ogg

<philip_sheldrake> Thanks. Great to be here.
Adrian Gropper is scribing.

Topic: Introductions and reintro

Philip Sheldrake:  My first expereince thanks for inviting me
Wayne Chang:  Reitroductions?
Wayne Chang:  Announcements and reminders? no ccg meetings on 22 
  or 29 Dec.
.. TY to Ted that we need to use CET on agendas
Kaliya Young:  Conference I'm co-convening Thoughtful Biometrics
Wayne Chang: 
  https://github.com/w3c-ccg/community/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%22action%3A+review+next%22

Topic: Action Items

Kaliya Young: https://thoughtfulbiometrics.org/
VC PRs - how are we going to maintain the spec after group has 
  completed
Wayne Chang: https://github.com/w3c-ccg/community/issues/170
<identitywoman_> Feb 1, 3, 5. 9-1 pst / noon-5 est.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  We had our fors set of PRs under maintenance 
  charter - noted that one that -
<identitywoman_> just another sentence for the notes  The 
  Thoughtful Biometrics Workshop is creating a space to dialogue 
  about critical emerging issues surrounding biometric and digital 
  identity technologies.  Biometrics technology is being used in a 
  wide range of contexts and there in this range of existing and 
  potential uses, there are many questions about the ethical and 
  socially good uses.
Phil Archer: +1 Identitywoman - looks like a goo meeting.
Manu Sporny:  We thought we had everything set up - but actually 
  there are some details that matter - still working through those 
  - need to make sure Ivan is happy with the process - needs more 
  discussion before we start
Merging things in - there's no big blockers for now -
Wayne Chang:  Who is the we?
Manu Sporny:  Needs to be the chairs of the CCG, staff contact, 
  editors of the spec.
Wayne Chang:  NPM item: importance? would love to hear about it
Mike Prorock:  When we're podicing assets - we would prefer for 
  them to come from a centralized repo - e.g. universal wallet - 
  better from W3C than other namespaces
  ... who do you go for help. It helps us for mananging as CCG 
  instead of a company.
Wayne Chang:  Chairs have discussed - our concerns are with 
  respect to scope - don't want straight code that may have bugs - 
  need scope lit to test vectors or
  ... example implementations, data values, but not code level 
  dependencies
Mike Schwartz:  Agree withthe scoping - adding traceability - 
  later, univesal wallet could evolve - we will need more rigor 
  around approval process - automated testing - keep scope limited 
  for now
<mprorock> 1+
Manu Sporny:  General +1 tp mike's request - DigitalBazaar has 
  been doing ot for JSON-LD would love to be putting it in the 
  community - used in production and need to look how to ensure how 
  to feel safe for production - forking the repo might work for 
  your company - it's a much higher bar and need companies to pay 
  contributors
Wayne Chang:  My understanding is important reliability and clear 
  lines of governance - there may be lighter-weight use cases to 
  test the waters
Mike Prorock:  Let's start with the low hanging fruit and then 
  pay for significant contributions
<orie_> Raises questions about sponsorship / github sponsors for 
  repos, etc..
Wayne Chang:  As chair we need comfort to maintain quality and 
  trust
Wayne Chang: https://github.com/w3c-ccg/community/issues/168

Topic: Infrastructure task Force

<mprorock> @orie - yes indeed, I think that is definitely an 
  option and worthy of future discussion
Wayne Chang:  A lot of tech infrastructure needs - Manu and Amy 
  contributors but need transparency and share the load work or $ - 
  to manage the inventory - NPM, telconference, cloud services cos 
  $, security , create and maintain the documentation for new 
  entrants
  ... there has been interest - see some concerns from Heather - 
  can you speak?
Orie Steele:  Trying to distill what the next steps are for NPM - 
  volunteering - there are many that have power and responsibility 
  and thay should be included
Manu Sporny:  To speak in favor of the infrastructure task force 
  - needs to move away from the DigitalBazaar as operator of the 
  infrastructure - need to address all of the concers - like what 
  happens if used for production - how is this helping the chairs?
  ... need a group of people that get together on regular basis
<tallted> "Infrastructure" may not have been the right label for 
  what was originally targeted ...
Heather Vescent:  Not questioning if we need to do the work - 
  concerned about another level of hierarchy - adds work to the 
  chairs - not to lose accountability - when proposed was to 
  address the minutes issue around JTSI - looks to me like more 
  things thrown into this bucke -
  ... can manage these things through the regular work items not 
  as part of the task force - already have three other task forces, 
  this would be a fourth.
  ... we don't have guidelines or documentation for task forces - 
  need to be appropriate - another level of hierarchy to manage
  ... there have been a loud group around JTSI and quiet group 
  around Zoom. That ship has sailed - one of my goals is to 
  increase diversity to people that are not as comfortable with 
  tech
<kim> that sounds like something the chairs could communicate 
  better to speakers
<kim> we should make sure to clarify this to invited speakers
  ... concerned about lack of tech obstacles - lower that barrier 
  - open to addressing those issues - need more accountability and 
  transparency maybe without a task force.
Wayne Chang:  Responding, spending time along with manu - would 
  prefer the hierarchy to the current state where using personal 
  credit cards and such -
<heathervescent> I am willing to work on the audit as well
<kim> we are getting short on time, so I'll just say my comments 
  on the record.
  ... scope creep is a problem - maybe prioritize documentation - 
  adding the burden of extensive audits is a problem - willing to 
  contribute - technology point: we have been asking for feedback 
  and have been avoiding strong objections hence zoom
Heather Vescent: +1 Manu. This is one problem.
Manu Sporny:  Agrees with a lot of what heather said. It's a 
  wonderful that we have so much participation - contemplating 
  productio infrastructure in CG is great but scope creep can be a 
  problem - NPM is scary but valuable - need to figure out a way to 
  scale
  ... inclusivity is valid problem around jtsi - not hearing 
  anything unreasonable - focus on stabilizing first
Wayne Chang: +1 Manu
<kim> I'm in support of this task force. The fact that chairs 
  were historically able to manage infrastructure, publish minutes, 
  etc -- that happened as a result of a ton of work from Manu and 
  then me. 
<kim> time check -- we should wrap this up and move to the main 
  speaker
Ted Thibodeau:  Task forces tend to be task driven - this sounds 
  more like a sub-committee - people involved should be concerned 
  but not everyone needt to be involved

Topic: Generative Identity

Philip Sheldrake: https://akasha.org/about/
Philip Sheldrake:  Thanks to Kim for suggesting I join. I'm an 
  engineer, work with Akasha Foundation and a PhD candidate.
  ... Generative Identity is not an architecture nor a solution - 
  it's approaching psychological and sociological health - was 
  invited to write a chapter and it turned into a critique
  ... everyone undersatands SSI needs explanation - need to 
  develop categorization around noun vs. verb-like
  ... verb-like Identity is in flux and dynamic vs. noun-like is 
  static and unchanging like a date of birth - that is the 
  bureaucratic view of identity has been dominant
  ... may have meen the dominant viewpoing of SSI developers, 
  maybe because of crypto approach leads to nonun-like
  ... also the western concept to reify the individual noun-like 
  mentality in code.
<drummond> that is simply a misunderstand about how SSI works. It 
  is highly verb-like
<identitywoman_> with all due respect Philip you haven't actively 
  particiapted in the technology development for the last 15 years. 
  So to say that we are centered on noun like ID is THE dominant 
  frame in our community it "is" A frame that happens to be solved 
  with this technology.   A huge focus of the work has also been 
  focused on the verb like aspects particularly with the DIDComm 
  specification.
  ... To explain the difference to verb-like doesn't mean that 
  identity stands alone - individual AND collective - interwoven 
  might have a single word to descibe inteities - PLURAL -
  ... informed by interactions and forever in flux - chatting 
  with taylor kendall last year -
<kerri_lemoie> I'm a technologist & a psychologist
  ... community needs equal representation of technologists + 
  psychologists + sociologists + ecologists + historians not in the 
  group
<drummond> I think Philip needs more exposure to the full breadth 
  of the SSI community
  ... how can we desing if these other disciplines are not at the 
  table - as we digitalize the noun-like was previously legal - 
  previous friction
  ... has prevented the legal identity from beign used 
  inappropriately - software architects have separation of concerns 
  ingained - we are separating concerns when we should not and 
  failing to separate when we should
  ... digitalizing the noun-like we have failed by letting it 
  bleed into societal rigidity - but if we want the verb-like 
  essence of human condition - we should avoid the triangles
  ... all I'm trying to do is encourage an interdisciplinar 
  deabte and hit PAUSE until we can have that discussion - social 
  media as an example -
  ... need to anticipate negative emerging consequences that 
  could result in persecution and murder.
<identitywoman_> Sorry but their are systems that are way worse 
  then SSI on the march in the real world including what is being 
  built in China and the Aadhaar system being exported to Africa.  
  So "pausing" means those other far worse systems will continue to 
  push out into the world.
  ... we need to attenuate the distressing outcomes - with 
  generative identity
<heathervescent> Thanks Philip for coming to share this with the 
  community.
Manu Sporny:  TY for coming in - everything is great insights - 
  building bridges a good thing - It may not appear that those 
  disciplines are already here.
Kerri Lemoie: Media Psychologist :)
<kim> /me I'm a standup comic if that helps
Kim Hamilton Duffy: /Me a bad one :(
  ... our CTO has a psycholgy dergee - Kerri has sociology 
  perspective - we have people that care deeply - the question is:
<phil> I appreciate the interdisciplinary concern and the 
  possible distressing outcomes that could emerge without it. I do 
  think there reasonable worries that we perhaps need more 
  proactive outreach. That's important. But there is more 
  diversity, at least in this community, is greater than many.
  ... what can we do to get more people involved?
<heathervescent> But many of us technologist/other field still 
  have a technological bias... I would be curious to hear the 
  non-technology/ experts comments.
  ... what do we do from here?
<phil> It would be interesting to surface the actual diversity in 
  this group that lurks, is present, but perhaps not as transparent 
  as might be helpful.
Philip Sheldrake:  I'm not underestimating how difficult - TBL is 
  still struggling - the only approach I can think of is that EU 
  gets it more than other democratic cultures
Kaliya Young: I wrote a critique of Philip's critique if folks 
  wan to read it pushing back from the very top that we are "moving 
  fast and breaking things"   
  https://identitywoman.net/self-sovereigh-identity-critique-critique/
<drummond> I simply do not agree with the premise that SSI 
  architecture is “noun-like”. Implemented correctly, it is the 
  most “verb-like” digital identity model ever created.
<kerri_lemoie> I think it would be worthwhile & educational to 
  hold a cross-disciplinary discussion on the principles.
  ... seems to understand - EC funding sought -
<drummond> Ironically the EU has provided more funding for SSI 
  than any other government
Wayne Chang:  Last words and contact?
Philip Sheldrake:  Generativeidentity.org
Ryan Grant: https://generative-identity.org/
Received on Friday, 11 December 2020 19:17:25 UTC

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