- From: Joe Andrieu <joe@legreq.com>
- Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 12:18:37 -0800
- To: Kim Hamilton Duffy <kim@learningmachine.com>, Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin <snorre@diwala.io>
- Cc: David.Challener@jhuapl.edu, kevin@kiva.org, Moses Ma <moses.ma@futurelabconsulting.com>, swcurran@cloudcompass.ca, markus@danubetech.com, Credentials CG <public-credentials@w3.org>
- Message-Id: <1541621917.2426711.1569210256.4275C344@webmail.messagingengine.com>
As I understand it, there are also international treaties regarding the recognition of foreign credentials that can add significantly to the delays in using such a transcript. The real delay is often not getting the record from the school, but rather the validation of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Validation_of_foreign_studies_and_degrees This is a great case where the virtual non-jurisdictionality of DIDs and VCs can establish a reliable verification of authenticity without recourse to signed paperwork from living human beings attesting to the validity of a given degree/diploma/transcript. -j On Wed, Nov 7, 2018, at 10:53 AM, Kim Hamilton Duffy wrote: > Good idea Snorre; this is how we usually do it. (just subject rename)> > David: you've considered the issuer side; now think about the > recipient side.> > On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 10:36 AM Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin > <snorre@diwala.io> wrote:>> Can someone explain to me what the procedure of taking this to >> another thread is?>> I would like to answer David, but to not clutter up the current >> reason.>> It might be a good discussion to exactly why DIDs are needed in this >> use case.>> It was once again just an answer directly to me so I would like to >> create a new thread or discussion arena on it.>> Transparency for the win 🎉 >> >> "No – just trying to understand. >> I would think there are a lot of ways to fix this including:____ >> __1) __A webpage with a digital pub key for the university that >> can be used to look up a transcript (password given to user)____>> __2) __Digital signature over the transcript____ >> A quick note – it appears the university of Illinois is doing 2), >> sent at the request of the student to the place they have asked.____>> __ __ >> DiDs don’t seem to be required. (U of I isn’t using them).____ >> __ __ >> Why does the admin have to take 6 months every time they get the >> piece of paper with the shiny stickers? I assume that fraud is a real >> problem in this country, and phones don’t work for some reason (call >> the university and ask if the GPA/ major, and a few other things on >> the doc are correct), but this still seems really excessive.____>> __ __ >> I do know of cases where people got a job saying they had a degree >> they did not have – but I just assumed that HR didn’t do due >> diligence.">> >> On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 7:00 PM Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin >> <snorre@diwala.io> wrote:>>> Are you deliberately just responding to me David? Let me know and I >>> will stop reply to all. But i think this is important information >>> for everybody, based on the discussion.>>> >>> "So if they have computers, why does it take 6 months to respond to >>> a request for a transcript?>>> Do they have computers, but no printers?" >>> >>> So the procedure in that country is that it is not allowed to just >>> print a transcript. That is because they want high trust. There have >>> been many fraud attempts, and this is the schools reputation.>>> What takes time is the administrative to acctually go through the >>> process of getting that special piece of paper with the watermarks, >>> and shiny stickers, because that created trust.>>> So, since all have mobiles, and there are computers, how can you >>> verify something that creates trust, without having to go via the >>> physical world?>>> I think this sounds like a case for DID and VC`s? >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 6:44 PM Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin >>> <snorre@diwala.io> wrote:>>>> I would like to include in the collaborative discussion this >>>> answer:>>>> >>>> "So if it takes 6 months to get a transcript, I think there is a >>>> different and very big problem to work on. And DiDs probably won’t >>>> help in this case (How long do you think it would take to get >>>> computers set up in this school?)">>>> >>>> My response to this is that, yes there are different root problems >>>> that need to be worked on, but assuming they dont have computers, >>>> is ignorant.>>>> They are mobile first country, they use less cash than whats going >>>> on in the USA.>>>> They are ready for a leapfrog of trusted tech to be able to build >>>> up their infrastructure in a more digital way.>>>> We are currently working in that country and see a massive >>>> readiness to adopt this technology.>>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 6:07 PM Kevin O'Brien <kevin@kiva.org> >>>> wrote:>>>>> Having previously worked for a large university system, >>>>> specifically on their transcript system, I can say that at least >>>>> California state schools have no real interest in running their >>>>> own transcript services. We also certainly didn't make money off >>>>> of the transcripts.>>>>> >>>>> So, I think the transcript example is appropriate, although how >>>>> much of a problem it is a fair question worth asking. As well, >>>>> convincing said schools to do things in a new way would be a >>>>> difficult challenge to overcome and the value proposition at the >>>>> current point in time would be unlikely to be valuable enough to >>>>> try such an endeavor. But through the work of folks like people >>>>> such as yourselves I imagine it will get there some day :)>>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 8:55 AM, Kim Hamilton Duffy >>>>> <kim@learningmachine.com> wrote:>>>>>> David Challener: those are common misconceptions. Re >>>>>> administrative paperwork fees — that is negligible and just meant >>>>>> to cover the costs.>>>>>> >>>>>> As to angry alumni, I’ll skip to the punchline. Learning Machine >>>>>> has university customers who think of these as features that >>>>>> delight their alumni.>>>>>> >>>>>> P.s. it’s the education clearing houses that won’t like it >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 7:57 AM Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin >>>>>> <snorre@diwala.io> wrote:>>>>>>> If you look at the world in whole, there is a problem. >>>>>>> In Kamapala, Uganda some schools take 6 months to get >>>>>>> transcripts to the user.>>>>>>> What about Syria, what if the school is acctually bombed and you >>>>>>> can't get a new transcript. Then a digital version of it with >>>>>>> signatures from an earlier existed school is very powerfull, >>>>>>> with the possibility to add news about what happened to the >>>>>>> school.>>>>>>> Is all these crazy techniques of watermark and other fancy paper >>>>>>> uniquness the way we want to continue?>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 4:25 PM Challener, David C. >>>>>>> <David.Challener@jhuapl.edu> wrote:>>>>>>>> I don’t like this use case because I don’t think it is really >>>>>>>> viable.____>>>>>>>> The university will not want to be disintermediated from its >>>>>>>> alumni.____>>>>>>>> The university will not want to make its alumni angry.____ >>>>>>>> The university will not want to give up the money they make >>>>>>>> when they give out transcripts.____>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>> I just checked the U. of Ill. Technique and it is really easy >>>>>>>> to get a transcript, so it isn’t clear there is a problem that >>>>>>>> needs to be solved here anyway.____>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>> *From:* Kim Hamilton Duffy <kim@learningmachine.com> *Sent:* >>>>>>>> Wednesday, November 07, 2018 1:36 AM *To:* Moses Ma >>>>>>>> <moses.ma@futurelabconsulting.com> *Cc:* Stephen Curran >>>>>>>> <swcurran@cloudcompass.ca>; Markus Sabadello >>>>>>>> <markus@danubetech.com>; Public-Credentials <public- >>>>>>>> credentials@w3.org> *Subject:* Re: Seeking to update >>>>>>>> Decentralized Identity related slides____>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>> About the DID value proposition, I think it is an easier sell >>>>>>>> in the edu space because people accept certain things as >>>>>>>> axiomatic and this line of reasoning (almost) always conveys >>>>>>>> it:>>>>>>>> 1. You earned the degree, credential, etc. It should be >>>>>>>> shareable and verifiable for your lifetime. There are some >>>>>>>> special cases (fraud, mistakes) that require revocation, >>>>>>>> and some training requires expiration/renewal, but in >>>>>>>> general people are primed to expect lifelong ownership.>>>>>>>> 2. The common verification processes have clear >>>>>>>> inefficiencies, and ...(varying description for lay >>>>>>>> audiences) ... cryptographic techniques help>>>>>>>> 3. If you buy into #2, long term key management is clearly a >>>>>>>> pressing problem>>>>>>>> 4. DIDs -> key lifecycle is a first class citizen >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Some of our working examples (drivers licenses, claims >>>>>>>> associated with a social security numbers) don’t prime people >>>>>>>> with this frame of mind. To Moses’s point, if we lead with >>>>>>>> examples like ID cards, our typical business audiences think >>>>>>>> everything is fine except for when (seemingly rare) bad >>>>>>>> incidents happen, e.g. equifax, personal identity theft. This >>>>>>>> “when bad things happen” angle is often perceived as creating >>>>>>>> problems that don’t exist, that apply to other people, or >>>>>>>> generally something that can be put off. I’d imagine that >>>>>>>> getting audience-specific metrics is the only convincing way >>>>>>>> forward.>>>>>>>> ____ >>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 10:01 AM Moses Ma >>>>>>>> <moses.ma@futurelabconsulting.com> wrote:____>>>>>>>>> Hi Stephen et al,____ >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>> I’m an “innovation coach” and what I usually tell my clients >>>>>>>>> or audience is that the key to radical innovation is to look >>>>>>>>> for something that everyone sees as working just fine... but >>>>>>>>> is actually broken. There is no better example of this >>>>>>>>> phenomena than Internet identity, which is truly broken, but >>>>>>>>> everyone (but us DID revolutionaries) sees as situation >>>>>>>>> normal. ____>>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>> This corresponds with my slide titled “The Internet is Broken >>>>>>>>> (and it’s not Kim Kardashian’s fault)”____>>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>> The slides that follow propose that this is actually one of >>>>>>>>> the the greatest opportunity spaces in decades for blue ocean >>>>>>>>> innovation.____>>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>> That usually gets the attention of enterprise customers.____>>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>> Moses____ >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>> *Moses Ma | FutureLab Consulting Inc*____ >>>>>>>>> moses@ngenven.com |moses.ma@futurelabconsulting.com____ >>>>>>>>> *v* +1.415.952.7888[1] | *m*+1.415.568.1068[2] | *skype* >>>>>>>>> mosesma____>>>>>>>>> *blog & social media: *my blog at psychologytoday.com[3] | >>>>>>>>> linkedin[4] | facebook[5] | twitter[6]____>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ____ >>>>>>>>>> On Nov 6, 2018 at 9:42 AM, <Stephen Curran[7]> wrote:____ >>>>>>>>>> For an audience relatively new to the space, or for a less >>>>>>>>>> technical audience, I start with the business/online >>>>>>>>>> existence problems people face to ground the discussion. I >>>>>>>>>> did the Hyperledger Indy chapter for an edX course and tried >>>>>>>>>> to start with DIDs and then to VCs and found it very >>>>>>>>>> difficult to get to the "why this matters" point. Once I >>>>>>>>>> changed to start with the business problem and how the use of >>>>>>>>>> DIDs and especially VCs addressed the problems (and more), >>>>>>>>>> the understanding and importance was grasped. At least I >>>>>>>>>> think it was :-).____>>>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>>> *Stephen Curran*____ >>>>>>>>>> Cloud Compass Computing, Inc (C3I)____ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> P: Cell: 250-857-1096[8]____ >>>>>>>>>> W: http://cloudcompass.ca____ >>>>>>>>>> On Nov 5 2018, at 10:46 pm, Markus Sabadello >>>>>>>>>> <markus@danubetech.com> wrote:____>>>>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>>>> On the technology/architecture side, when I do talks I >>>>>>>>>>> usually start____>>>>>>>>>>> with DIDs, and then mention VCs after that.____ >>>>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>>>> I find DIDs and why they are needed as a basis for >>>>>>>>>>> everything else____>>>>>>>>>>> rather easy to explain. But I also feel that explaining SSI >>>>>>>>>>> = DIDs + VCs____>>>>>>>>>>> is a very simplified summary of what we're doing, and much >>>>>>>>>>> more work____>>>>>>>>>>> will be needed on data models, protocols, etc. We're only at >>>>>>>>>>> the____>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of building that architecture consisting not only >>>>>>>>>>> of DIDs +____>>>>>>>>>>> VCs, but also DID Auth, agents, hubs, personal clouds, >>>>>>>>>>> petnames,____>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities, key management, ZKPs, and more.____ >>>>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>>>> "DIDs Unique Selling Proposition" looks like an interesting >>>>>>>>>>> CCG agenda item.____>>>>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your slides, that's great and I also plan >>>>>>>>>>> to re-use____>>>>>>>>>>> some of them in upcoming events!____ >>>>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>>>> Did they record your talk in Zurich?____ >>>>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>>>> Markus____ >>>>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>>>> On 11/6/18 12:54 AM, Christopher Allen wrote:____ >>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you everyone for sharing your slides! Very helpful, >>>>>>>>>>>> though there____>>>>>>>>>>>> were many good ideas elsewhere I was unable to puzzle how >>>>>>>>>>>> to fit in.____>>>>>>>>>>>> Next time.____ >>>>>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>>>>> I did succeed in updating a lot of the terminology for my >>>>>>>>>>>> talk tonight____>>>>>>>>>>>> in Zurich to the latest language & integrated at least a >>>>>>>>>>>> few of the____>>>>>>>>>>>> better approaches from others that I felt were more >>>>>>>>>>>> effective than my____>>>>>>>>>>>> own. Also, many thanks to Joe & Markus who reviewed over >>>>>>>>>>>> the weekend____>>>>>>>>>>>> an early draft.____ >>>>>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>>>>> New to this talk is I explicitly separate the Ideology from >>>>>>>>>>>> the____>>>>>>>>>>>> Architecture, and each could potentially stand alone. I >>>>>>>>>>>> agree with Joe____>>>>>>>>>>>> that using the term “movement” rather than ideology is >>>>>>>>>>>> likely better,____>>>>>>>>>>>> but I didn’t change it as the title of talk was already >>>>>>>>>>>> advertised____>>>>>>>>>>>> (and I think I’d need new images).____ >>>>>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>>>>> I received a lot of positive feedback here in Switzerland >>>>>>>>>>>> on the____>>>>>>>>>>>> ideology part of the talk, but it still needs work. In >>>>>>>>>>>> particular I____>>>>>>>>>>>> felt Kaliya’s social context recursive triad definition of >>>>>>>>>>>> identity____>>>>>>>>>>>> leads better into DIDs than Joe’s functional identity >>>>>>>>>>>> definition. I____>>>>>>>>>>>> like aspects of both but wasn’t able to integrate them.____>>>>>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>>>>> The Architecture section is weaker. I tried to explain why >>>>>>>>>>>> we focused____>>>>>>>>>>>> on DIDs first, but it wasn’t as easy a coherent story to >>>>>>>>>>>> tell. Best____>>>>>>>>>>>> I’ve done to date, but feel I lost even some of my tech >>>>>>>>>>>> audience there. ____>>>>>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>>>>> The story connection from DID Docs to VCs was particularly >>>>>>>>>>>> weak. Some____>>>>>>>>>>>> tell the story VC first/DIDs second, and I can see why, but >>>>>>>>>>>> right now____>>>>>>>>>>>> the DID story is more important. We know decentralized is >>>>>>>>>>>> important____>>>>>>>>>>>> but we are not yet effective is saying why yet.____ >>>>>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>>>>> A lot of stuff is missing in section on future work: not >>>>>>>>>>>> sure how to____>>>>>>>>>>>> present things like pair-wise DIDs & selective disclosure >>>>>>>>>>>> when only____>>>>>>>>>>>> one party plans to implement it. I work hard in my talks to >>>>>>>>>>>> be as____>>>>>>>>>>>> impartial/agnostic to blockchains and avoid single vendor >>>>>>>>>>>> specific____>>>>>>>>>>>> solutions as I can.____ >>>>>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>>>>> My final slides from last night are at:____ >>>>>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/15M0tdSS1dRMVdJdVgBlFap8JwiuFdvocZ0AAu7c1eBk____>>>>>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>>>>> I welcome comments, improvements, re-usage, etc.____ >>>>>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>>>>>>>>>> — Christopher Allen____ >>>>>>>> -- ____ >>>>>>>> Kim Hamilton Duffy____ >>>>>>>> CTO & Principal Architect Learning Machine____ >>>>>>>> Co-chair W3C Credentials Community Group____ >>>>>>>> kim@learningmachine.com____ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin * >>>>>>> Co-Founder & CTO, Diwala >>>>>>> +47 411 611 [9]94 >>>>>>> www.diwala.io[10] >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kim Hamilton Duffy >>>>>> CTO & Principal Architect Learning Machine >>>>>> Co-chair W3C Credentials Community Group >>>>>> kim@learningmachine.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> *Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin * >>>> Co-Founder & CTO, Diwala >>>> +47 411 611 [11]94 >>>> www.diwala.io[12] >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin * >>> Co-Founder & CTO, Diwala >>> +47 411 611 [13]94 >>> www.diwala.io[14] >> >> >> -- >> >> *Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin * >> Co-Founder & CTO, Diwala >> +47 411 611 [15]94 >> www.diwala.io[16] > -- > Kim Hamilton Duffy > CTO & Principal Architect Learning Machine > Co-chair W3C Credentials Community Group > kim@learningmachine.com -- Joe Andrieu, PMP joe@legreq.comLEGENDARY REQUIREMENTS +1(805)705-8651Do what matters. http://legreq.com[17] Links: 1. tel:(415)%20952-7888 2. tel:(415)%20568-1068 3. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-tao-innovation 4. http://www.linkedin.com/in/mosesma 5. http://www.facebook.com/moses.t.ma 6. http://twitter.com/mosesma 7. mailto:swcurran@cloudcompass.ca 8. tel:Cell:%20250-857-1096 9. tel:+47%20404%2061%20926 10. http://www.diwala.io/ 11. tel:+47%20404%2061%20926 12. http://www.diwala.io/ 13. tel:+47%20404%2061%20926 14. http://www.diwala.io/ 15. tel:+47%20404%2061%20926 16. http://www.diwala.io/ 17. http://www.legendaryrequirements.com
Received on Wednesday, 7 November 2018 20:19:05 UTC