- From: Andrew Bransford Brown <andrewbb@gmail.com>
- Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:29:34 -0400
- To: Timothy Holborn <timothy.holborn@gmail.com>
- Cc: Kelly Sonderegger <ksondere@gmail.com>, Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>, Kaliya IDwoman <kaliya-id@identitywoman.net>, W3C Credentials Community Group <public-credentials@w3.org>, Web Payments CG <public-webpayments@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CAPS+YF+uc9Thpt3HVhgBuW7GUbENzVPGRKimYmcQoGLKeSr3zA@mail.gmail.com>
The people at the top create contracts with the intention of reneging. They don't feel guilt. They are guilty. "When the people of the world have a *common monetary language*, completely freed from every government, it will so facilitate and stabilize exchange that peace and prosperity will ensue even without world government. A union of peoples rather than a union of political governments is what the world needs." E.C. Riegel, monetary theorist 1949. On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 11:13 AM, Timothy Holborn <timothy.holborn@gmail.com> wrote: > perhaps make sure we write a minute 'not our problem' and/or 'we do not > have any influence on these issues' or 'out of scope'. > > that'll help with the Identity related analysis, and provide the means for > others to do the necessary work. > > > > On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 at 01:11 Kelly Sonderegger <ksondere@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Manu hits on the real point, as one who loves technology this issue >> doesn't solve with technology. >> >> We're uncomfortable to talk about the real solutions to problems like >> these because of the ensuing wrath that always occurs. And yet C.S.Lewis >> so well speaks of a natural law of men, a law that tells us that things are >> not what they should be. It is of course the law of conscience, the law of >> guilt. Guilt is actually not a bad thing. It is a good thing to recognize >> and then seek to conform too a conscience that makes us feel guilty. >> Acknowledging guilt recognizes this natural and unyielding law of our >> conscience and makes society strive to become both accountable and better. >> It is ultimately this idea that turned C.S. Lewis from atheist to Christian. >> >> Though we condemn the idea of guilt these days ironically we live in a >> shaming society which is far worse. A shaming society is perpetually >> reactive and alarmed. If you don't conform to the popular ideas of a >> shaming society you are excluded based on the whims of what shamers believe >> should be conformed too. >> >> So what solves this issue? The courage to speak more freely of the >> natural law of conscience, to raise a sense of guilt on those who are >> guilty of wrong doing. And to speak to the fact that these things are >> wrong in the site of a Just God. >> >> And moving from there. >> >> On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 8:46 AM Timothy Holborn <timothy.holborn@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 at 00:10 Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com> >> wrote: >> >> On 04/06/2017 09:31 PM, Kaliya IDwoman wrote: >> > Man camps of all kinds create markets for sex. Smart contracts don't >> > fix this problem >> >> Strongly agree. >> >> they were talking about children, not simply prostitution whereby i still >> think there is a difference based upon the capacity to provide 'consent' >> particularly in cases of 'modern slavery' and those of poor mental health. >> all of which can be use-cases for credentials / verifiable claims. . >> >> similar yet different (lower-stakes) use case: https://github.com/ >> ouisharelabs/food-dashboard/issues/6 (haven't been able to make much >> progress on that yet). >> >> >> Technologists tend to incorrectly bias very heavily towards technology >> solving problems that are fundamentally more social than technical. We >> should measure our words more carefully, this thread being a case in >> point. >> >> One of the problems with sex trafficking, among most other criminal >> activity, is that the criminals don't care about rule of law and are >> incredibly good at exploiting people for their own gain. Having a >> perfect blockchain + smart contract solution isn't going to make a dent >> in the problem unless it's also paired with a very well funded and >> concerted political and social effort to reduce trafficking. >> >> >> I still don't like the term 'blockchain' for some of these works. >> >> >> >> We had the same issue at the last ID2020 event where some proposed >> that Blockchain could "solve" the refugee problem. >> >> >> looking at modular, pre-fab smart housing. that seems like a better >> scaffold. After all, Trump's a builder... >> >> >> These technologies may be used as a very small part of a solution, but >> we should be very careful to NOT suggest that the technologies >> themselves will address the issue. >> >> >> Agreed. But without appropriate technology design technology (or the >> implementation style / use of technology) can be part of the problem. >> >> >> That's not to say that we shouldn't incubate technologies that may be >> used as part of a solution to a problem. We should just be very careful >> to not suggest that they ARE the solution to the problem. >> >> >> A bit like the invention of antibiotics - people will still get sick, and >> people will still need to see a doctor - but perhaps infection rates can be >> lowered by accessibility to good healthcare; and, the outcomes are even >> better now we have drugs to treat problems alongside many other >> advancements in medical technology; yet some regions may have business >> systems where it's difficult to get the best of care. Some regions may not >> have access to good medical care, clean facilities or even clean water. >> >> UN Peace-keepers causing medical issues by way of child sexual abuse upon >> those of our species who are the least able to obtain care? that's not >> ok. >> >> We're a bit like medical researchers for helping to produce the >> 'technology' that can help solve those problems, if we choose to be; and >> the benefits will be most values by those with a 'clean health record', so >> they can continue to do good and be recgonised for their efforts. >> >> Inoculating kids; or perhaps something similar to Bill Gates goals for >> polio; would be much better than improving the means for treatment, whilst >> both are seemingly needed; and even better - these sorts of 'illnesses' are >> indiscriminate - the kids wouldn't need to be simply protected from un >> peace keepers - indeed, i imagine in greater volumes far more would >> benefit!!! >> >> Yet if we do not do this work well. If we do not meet our challenges, >> then our ability, our choices. well. IMHO, they do matter as a >> constituent of solving these sorts of problem. Honestly, i think it's an >> important constituent. Whether it be in relation to economic trade or >> other means; it's a way to 'rethink good guys vs. bad guys'. >> >> and try to ensure those who do the right thing; don't get harmed by those >> who knowing do otherwise, with impunity. >> >> building systems where the data about human activity is stored by the >> human cannot access that data for safety / welfare / health? because it's >> not part of the advertising based business model? that's a values >> statement far more than it is a technology problem, yet due to lack of >> investment; we're still here building technology. >> >> So i hope we make improvements to the 'status quo' as other are also >> suggesting https://www.wired.com/2017/04/tim-berners-lee- >> inventor-web-plots-radical-overhaul-creation/ >> >> yet i'm still worried about the means and methods, as i've also outlined >> here: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public- >> credentials/2017Apr/0051.html >> >> I also started on https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public- >> webpayments/2014Jul/0043.html years ago; and haven't seen much progress >> on that yet either (noting it's been a really difficult road with too few >> hands and some incredible ones...) >> >> :) >> >> tim.H >> >> >> >> >> -- manu >> >> -- >> Manu Sporny (skype: msporny, twitter: manusporny, G+: +Manu Sporny) >> Founder/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc. >> blog: Rebalancing How the Web is Built >> http://manu.sporny.org/2016/rebalancing/ >> >>
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