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Credentials CG Telecon Minutes for 2014-09-09

From: <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 13:39:50 -0400
Message-Id: <1410284390777.0.21138@zoe>
To: Credentials CG <public-credentials@w3.org>
Thanks to Dave Longley for scribing this week! The minutes
for this week's Credentials CG telecon are now available:


Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio from the meeting is available as well (link provided below).

Credentials Community Group Telecon Minutes for 2014-09-09

  1. Introduction of new Members
  2. Quick IGF 2014 Review
  3. Badge Alliance and JSON-LD Discussion
  4. Charter Vote Status
  5. Use Case Review
  Manu Sporny
  Dave Longley
  Dave Longley, Manu Sporny, Evgeny Vinogradov, Mary Bold, Tim 
  Holborn, Bailey Reutzel, Chris McAvoy, Mark Leuba, Bill Gebert, 
  David I. Lehn

Dave Longley is scribing.
Manu describes today's agenda.
Manu Sporny:  Chris if you could give us a quick rundown of the 
  JSON-LD discussions happening at Badge Alliance at some point 
  during the call, that would be great.
Manu Sporny:  Any other changes to the Agenda?
No changes requested.

Topic: Introduction of new Members

Evgeny Vinogradov:  I'm from Yandex, largest search engine in 
  Russia along with one of their largest e-commerce platform 
  providers. I'm from their payments and identity team there. I 
  have been participating in Web Payments Community Group for a 
  while now and look forward to participating in the Credentials 
  Community Group as well.

Topic: Quick IGF 2014 Review

Manu Sporny: We ran a workshop on credentials and payments at 
  this year's IGF: 
Manu Sporny:  Last week we met in Istanbul, Turkey with th global 
  community, at IGF put on by UN, the point is to get policy 
  makers, legal teams, govt officials, technologies together under 
  the same roof to discuss issues, human rights issues, pervasive 
  monitoring, getting next 3 billion people connected to the Web, 
  mainly from a policy/framework standpoint not from technology.
Manu Sporny:  Mary bold, Pindar wong, and I  held a workshop 
  along with jeremy malcom from Electronic Frontier Foundation 
  Louise Bennett from BCS, and Norbert Bollow from Civil Society 
  held a workshop there to get international community to chime in 
  on the technology we're creating here specifically related to 
  payment but also to get credentials integrated into the core of 
  the Web.
Manu Sporny:  I think it went really really well, we were doing 
  something pretty experimental, typically you have a group of 5-6 
  panelists talk for 60 minutes then 3 or so questions and audience 
  experts don't get to participate etc. We changed things up to 
  minimize the panelist talking and the rest of the time was 
  getting audience involved to get feedback, find out what they 
  thought about the credentialing work and what we've been doing in 
  the payments group for the past couple of years as well as things 
  like the badge alliance work and things in general for the Web. 
  We were concerned that we wouldn't get engagement from the 
  audience but that wasn't a problem at all, the audience really 
  engaged, had great input for 90 minutes, etc.
Manu Sporny:  Questions about how govts use creds tech, how this 
  affects pervasive monitoring, etc
Manu Sporny:  Almost everyone in the room said they wanted to be 
  involved in the work we're doing here
Manu Sporny:  So a really great outcome.
Manu Sporny: Even better, the entire session was video recorded 
  and is now up on YouTube: IGF Payment, Privacy, Policing Paradox 
  workshop video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8cIYzy5MIA
Manu Sporny:  1Hr 15min long it's really interesting -- will 
  bring you up to speed on how everything we're working on is meant 
  to work
Manu Sporny:  There's an after review/workshop report we're 
  putting together now
Manu Sporny:  We'll feed that input into the W3C Technical 
Manu Sporny:  Lots of people care about this around the world, we 
  think W3C should create an official standards track tech group to 
  take this work on.
Manu Sporny:  Mary any additions?
Mary Bold:  There were more than 40 people in the room, they were 
  active. Manu and Pindar they had a very inventive presentation 
  style. They said we weren't going to do talking heads at a panel, 
  and they got people understanding payments, and i don't think 
  anyone in that room felt that it was being dumbed down for them. 
  They appreciated the steps being taken, imagining the information 
  moving across the web from browser to website, etc. I don't think 
  anyone took it as being super pedantic, and they took it as a 
  good live action explanation. I think that helped make the 
  audience engaged and the first question came in at like 10 
  minutes or something, it was lively presentation, questions 
  ranged from technical down to tell me where the money is.
Mary Bold:  I think it did its job and people will be coming back 
  to learn more.
Manu Sporny:  Any questions about IGF or what we'll do to follow 
Manu Sporny:  Or general questions about why we did it in the 
  first place?
Tim Holborn:  Do you have any strategy in place to maintain 
Manu Sporny:  We have a list of email addresses, we'll be sending 
  them information about how to join the creds CG and how to 
  participate in the work and we told them we'll give them 
  quarterly updates on the work in this group
Manu Sporny:  Same strategy we've been following  with the Web 
  Payments CG
Manu Sporny:  We send out every quarter things they might be 
  interested in, for example, votes that they might want to 
  participate in
Manu Sporny:  So invitations to join the group and information 
  about what's going on will be going out in email
Tim Holborn:  I'm finding extraordinary interest in the education 
  sector, for creds, some of that interest may come from those that 
  are not technically savvy but not participating in the group.
Tim Holborn:  It's really encouraging to get the feedback
Manu Sporny:  We have a fairly broad group of interest here, 
  people interested in govt ID, educational creds, finance and know 
  your customer info, trying to pull all those people into the same 
  conversation is always going to be a challenge
Manu Sporny:  Anyone with ideas about how to engage in all of 
  these groups would be welcome
Manu Sporny:  Anything else on IGF before we move forward?
Bailey Reutzel:  The video you're talking about is also the one 
  on youtube?
Manu Sporny:  Yes
Manu Sporny:  Unfortunately they didn't start recording until 10 
  minutes in, so we missed some intros but we actually prerecorded 
  those so you don't miss anything if you watch this first: 
Manu Sporny:  Anything else?

Topic: Badge Alliance and JSON-LD Discussion

Manu Sporny:  Last week the badge alliance had a discussion about 
  the use of JSON-LD for the open badges work. Chris could you give 
  us a quick rundown on that discussion and where you think the BA 
  community is on the use of JSON-LD?
Chris McAvoy: Notes for BA meeting on JSON-LD in the standard 
Chris McAvoy:  To give background, i think probably everyone on 
  the call knows about the BA, but the open badges project is 
  targeted at mostly education, we incubated at Mozilla, we are 
  working on a standard for verifying badges and sending them 
  around, etc.
Chris McAvoy:  The community is pretty vibrant, lots of people 
  working with the open badges standards, BA was born/run out of 
  Mozilla. We have groups working on different aspects of badging, 
  the group i chair is continuing to work on the issuing badges 
  standard. Manu and Accreditrust have been involved for a long 
  time and we've spent a lot of time with Manu more recently 
  talking about adding JSON-LD to the specification to make it more 
  robust and flexible and give us options for things like digital 
Chris McAvoy:  And to enable the idea of adding extensions to the 
  spec, like adding location or domain-specific things, JSON-LD has 
  that ability
Chris McAvoy:  So that brought us to it (JSON-LD) initially, the 
  last couple of weeks we've been discussing it in the standards 
  working group and other groups inside the alliance are sold on 
  JSON-LD. Where we're concerned, like Tim's point, is that we have 
  an education focused community and in a lot of cases they aren't 
  technical, and some of the process we have today even confuses 
  some in the community, so adding complexity is concerning, a lot 
  of the discussion we had in the last week is about that. We've 
  been selling the idea of using JSON-LD and back filling with 
  tools and how to use it, etc.
Chris McAvoy:  I feel like we have a good tentative plan, it 
  won't be instantaneous it will be a process to move the community 
  over to using JSON-LD to describe badges
Manu Sporny:  Is there anything we can do, i apologize that i 
  haven't been able to join more in that discussion, but hopefully 
  we'll have some breathing room over the next month, is there 
  anything we can focus on to help you sell the technology within 
  the BA, would it help to mark up a badge, or would it help to 
  link to the videos or do some kind of tutorial, if we could only 
  do one thing what should that thing be to help you sell this 
Chris McAvoy:  It's actually not selling it internally at this 
  point, it's the broader community, and i think that will just 
  take time, we need resources so i'll take you up on that, for 
  some of the discussions we're starting on the mailing list, etc. 
  We need to target a few issuers of badges to get them to adopt 
  the new standard that hasn't been written/formalized yet
Chris McAvoy:  We have some members in the community that i'd 
  like to start working with to get them to experiment with JSON-LD 
  because the move to JSON-LD will open up the idea of endorsement 
  of badges and extensions. That could be the killer app that gets 
  people to understand where we're headed with this spec/standard.
Chris McAvoy:  If there's one thing you could do it would be if 
  you could be available to be the go-to hand-holding expert on the 
  standard and help a few key players get over any technical 
Chris McAvoy:  And so far you've been doing that so we're in good 
Manu Sporny:  So one point here is that Dave Longley is here on 
  the call one of the creators of JSON-LD and Dave Lehn is here as 
  well and they know as much or more than I do about JSON-LD so you 
  can talk to them as well
Manu Sporny:  We could do a call to get any the concerns you've 
  got worked out and we could try and get the questions you have 
  worked out in 15-30 minutes
Chris McAvoy:  I appreciate it, thank you
Manu Sporny:  Is there a timeline you're thinking or are you just 
  thinking it will take a couple of months and you'll do the best 
  we can, etc. blog posts responding to questions, etc.
Chris McAvoy:  Yeah the latter but i do think we need more of a 
  plan ... put khaki pants on it, get it shipped.
Tim Holborn:  I'm looking at an application trying to promote 
  physical activity if there's something that would be mutually 
  beneficial that would be great

Topic: Charter Vote Status

Manu Sporny: Here's the current charter proposal: 
Manu Sporny:  We have a charter that's been voted on currently.
Manu Sporny:  Tim, you had mentioned on the mailing list a number 
  of changes you'd like to see in the charter, we had a quick 
  discussion offline about it, they are certainly things we should 
  consider and I personally agree with but we are mid-vote and we 
  don't want to invalid the voting process and it would take 
  another month to make the changes and get everyone to read it and 
  hold another vote and given our time crunch for having something 
  in time for W3C TPAC, I feel that we should postpone the changes 
  until we have /a/ optional charter.
Manu Sporny:  I think we should propose tim's changes in parallel 
  with everything else we're doing later
Manu Sporny:  And we can start voting on use cases and things of 
  that nature
Manu Sporny:  Tim, thoughts?
Manu Sporny: Vote link is here: 
Tim Holborn:  I'm not familiar with w3c process and i can 
  appreciate some of the technical things you're talking about.
Manu Sporny:  Typically people vote right away ... and then most 
  vote within 24 hours of the vote closing
Manu Sporny:  I'll send a ping out to the mailing list to remind 
  people to vote before this Friday.
Manu Sporny:  When the vote closes at the end of this Friday.
Manu Sporny:  Any other questions about Tim's suggested 
No other questions raised.
Chris McAvoy:  Is there a link to the proposed changes?
Tim Holborn: 
Tim Holborn:  I didn't edit the one online, i just grabbed it and 
  put into google and posted the link to the list
Manu Sporny:  Could you summarize the changes really quickly?
Tim Holborn: http://www.w3.org/community/odrl/
Tim Holborn:  The first bit is about  a technology instrument 
  (aka contract) that verifies something, privacy and security and 
  whether it can be entirely secure, data security is also a 
  concern, with respect to the ODRL community i put that in there 
  as well. So I share this credential for the purpose of you 
  sending me a product, and nothing else. How do I enforce that my 
  data isn't going to be misused.
Tim Holborn:  As I added WebID as a dependency or liaison, WebID 
  has a vibrant community associated through FOAF with support 
  through persona, although the concept of persona and creds are 
  very separate they both know about each other - at least that was 
  something that was worth involving them in the group, from what 
  i'm aware Manu has actually started that conversation.
Manu Sporny:  So the ability for having your data taken from you 
  and sold when you didn't mean it to be sold -  so having a way to 
  express that this credential is only for some specific purpose 
  and can't be used for another reason
Tim Holborn:  I thought this might provide some additional 
  safeguards around it, so the fact that it's a digital instrument 
  so like a contact, the signature is a legal instrument that's one 
  of the technology things that we should look at.
Tim Holborn:  Any comments or feedback?
Manu Sporny:  Personally, I think it's a good idea, (personal not 
  company position) the ODRL community has been working on this 
  mechanism to specify rights for when you transmit data.
Manu Sporny:  They've been working on that problem for quite a 
  while and we should be able to reuse what they've developed over 
  the last 3-4 years, the problem is no one has done a technical 
  implementation to make sure it works
Manu Sporny:  From what i understand i don't think that BA or the 
  IC stuff has yet discussed a way to say you can only use this 
  information for these purposes
Manu Sporny:  It's important to be able to express what your 
  rights should be

Topic: Use Case Review

Manu Sporny: 
Manu Sporny:  The web payments community group is entirely 
  dependent on the output of this group as far as credentials are 
  concerned, and the hope is that this group will take these use 
  cases from the that group very seriously
Tim Holborn: +1
Manu Sporny:  We're going to read through these, not really pause 
  to discuss, but then we'll go back and talk about the ones that 
  are of concern to those in this group
Dave Longley: +1
People on the call seem to be okay with this approach.
Manu Sporny:  We have a glossary above that will have to change 
  because it was pretty specific to the web payments group
Manu Sporny:  And we'll have to modify that slightly. Ok, here we 

USE CASE: Store basic credentials and payment provider 
  information on the Web in a way that is easy to share with 
  various payees/merchants given authorization by the owner (payee) 
  of the credential, and that is easy to synchronize between 

Manu Sporny:  You should be able to store a piece of information 
  and transmit it to who you want and that should only happen when 
  you authorize it
Tim Holborn:  What would the authorizer be called
Tim Holborn:  It would be an educational institution? or would it 
  be a govt department for a passport ... maybe a payment provider?
Manu Sporny:  We would strike 'and payment provider' and replace 
  it with examples like educational provider, gov't passport, etc

USE CASE: Steve (buyer) visits a website (merchant) and 
  authorizes the transmission of one or more credentials (such as 
  proof-of-age, shipping address, etc.) previously stored with a 
  credential storage service to the website to enable access or 
  fulfillment of a transaction.

Manu Sporny:  This has to do with someone providing a credential 
  to a website to let them get through a gate on the website to let 
  them do something, and here the website can't just trust the 
  person they need to trust a 3rd party, for example, if someone 
  needs to shut down a nuclear reactor remotely you'd have to 
  provide a number of high stakes credentials .... that's pretty 
  extreme example and one we should avoid in the future
Dave Longley:  Alternative example, a system administrator has to 
  provide a credential to access an administrative portion of a 
  website. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Tim Holborn:  Perhaps just an example would be to provide a 
  credential to edit a website

USE CASE: Given the opt-in permission of the participants (payer, 
  payee, buyer, merchant) of a transaction, the transaction 
  metadata can be used to discover additional attributes associated 
  with those participants. For example, given the buyer's 
  authorization, a merchant could query the identity URL for the 
  buyer contained in a digital receipt and obtain an up-to-date 
  email address.

Tim Holborn: Here’s a quick example: (not quite working, but 
  press edit) 
Manu Sporny:  This is about saying: once you've given a 
  credential to someone, can they do further discovery of other 
  credentials given your permission

USE CASE: Digitally verifiable credentials such that a merchant 
  and payment processor involved in a transaction can prove that 
  they have performed the proper due diligence when identifying the 
  payer and the payee (KYC).

Tim Holborn: Ie: http://www.finra.org/Industry/Issues/AML/
Manu Sporny:  This is important because of regulations in the 
  financial industry and some require the banks to prove that they 
  know who their customers are, to prevent money laundering and for 
  anti-terrorism initiatives, etc.
Tim Holborn: Or http://www.isignthis.com/
Mark Leuba:  Can we go back one step to the permission to perform 
  further discovery, at some point in time we'll need to be able to 
  revoke that permission
Manu Sporny:  You're right and we don't have that in the use case 
  right now and we should clarify that
Manu Sporny:  We should have a discussion on that as we've put a 
  lot of thought into that in the last couple of years

USE CASE: A payer executes a transaction without revealing 
  secrets that are not vital to the transaction (e.g. identity, 
  passwords, PINs or other information that the merchant does not 
  need to know).

Manu Sporny:  This use case is basically about making sure that 
  this credentialing mechanism doesn't expose extra information 
  that you don't have to, if someone needs to prove you have a 
  gov't issued passport, there should be a credential that can 
  indicate you *have* a gov't issued passport that doesn't have to 
  hand over all the information on it
Manu Sporny:  This is the ability to be able to send only the 
  minimum amount of information that is needed
Manu Sporny:  If you want to order a bottle of wine on the web 
  all you need to do is be able to prove that you're above the 
  required age limit for your country
Manu Sporny:  They dont need to know your exact age or birthdate, 
Manu Sporny:  And you don't need to have your identity 
Chris McAvoy: (Have to drop early, thanks everyone)
Tim Holborn:  GPS -- the question is about whether or not we're 
  supporting the capacity to lower the resolution of the data 
  you're sharing.
Tim Holborn:  For example it currently gives point data on mobile 
  phones, you can figure out exactly where the person is standing, 
  whereas some services can translate point data to states, 
  countries, etc., can we lower the resolution?
Manu Sporny:  I think this is that use case, it's about lowering 
  the resolution to the minimum necessary to pass whatever the 
  merchant or receiver needs to verify about you
Manu Sporny:  We don't have any use cases or things of that 
  nature about that sort of tracking, but we're not talking about 
  APIs for websites to access GPS stuff, etc. So the question back 
  to you is, specifically, which one are you concerned with 
  addressing? The pervasive monitoring and tracking of someone's 
  location or the more general problem of lowering resolution to 
  min required?
Tim Holborn:  Facebook messenger can create authentication with 
  that login and there are prefereneces that go with that 
  handshake. Credentialling, the ODRL may be the other side of it, 
  so i think that some of those things are in scope. I'm not sure, 
  it also comes to the point of ... is this scope within the tech 
  and spec process and to look if someone is not abiding by ... is 
  it some sort of contact,... if you have a cred, and find out 
  someone was using that credential in a way that isn't what you 
  authorized how is that defended or rescinded
Manu Sporny:  Once you give someone a piece of data you can't get 
  it back so we have to deal with that -- so is there some way we 
  can bring contract law into that, it's like a reverse shrinkwrap 
  license, by accepting this data you agree to these privacy 
  settings i've attached to it, so if you're going to use the data 
  you have to comply with these ... we don't have a use case for 
  this right now and that would be great if you wrote some up
Tim Holborn:  Do we have any use cases around reputation?
Manu Sporny:  Not yet
Tim Holborn:  Can users identify reputation of one from another 
  (credential issuer)?
Manu Sporny:  I do see there being a vocabulary for helping with 
  that, we're looking at this as letting the market decide trust, 
  if for whatever reason company X shouldn't be trusted then people 
  with signatures from that company will start getting rejected in 
  the market
Manu Sporny:  Even if that argument exists that doesn't mean 
  there shouldn't be a standard vocab everyone uses for that, 
  that's what we can standardize here.
Tim Holborn:  If you can get the password to their email address 
  you can reset all their passwords
Tim Holborn:  A state-based bank, a passport-provider, there are 
  high stakes creds and other creds. I guess that makes some sense. 
  In AUstralia, in order to get a bank account, you need a certain 
  number of "points", you need a birth certificate which is worth a 
  certain number of points, a healthcare card which adds more 
  points. There must be a digital equivalent of this, ranking of 
Manu Sporny:  Yeah, please send the use cases to the mailing list
Manu Sporny:  We're at the top of the hour, we have around six 
  use cases left, we'll cover that on the call tomorrow.
Manu Sporny:  Any closing thoughts/or announcements before call 
  next week?
Manu Sporny:  Thanks everyone
Bill Gebert:  Thanks
David I. Lehn:  Bye
Received on Tuesday, 9 September 2014 17:40:14 UTC

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