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Credentials CG Telecon Minutes for 2014-12-09

From: <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2014 12:52:48 -0500
Message-Id: <1418147568878.0.4065@zoe>
To: Credentials CG <public-credentials@w3.org>
Thanks to Manu Sporny and Dave Longley for scribing this week! The minutes
for this week's Credentials CG telecon are now available:


Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio from the meeting is available as well (link provided below).

Credentials Community Group Telecon Minutes for 2014-12-09

  1. Introduction to elf Pavlik
  2. Signatures Update
  3. Context Work Stream Update
  4. Roadmap Work Stream update
  5. Hosted vs. Signed
  Manu Sporny
  Manu Sporny and Dave Longley
  Manu Sporny, elf Pavlik, Eric Korb, Brian Sletten, Dave Longley, 
  Mark Leuba, Mary Bold

Manu Sporny is scribing.
Manu Sporny:  Any changes or updates to the agenda?
elf Pavlik: Agenda sounds good to me!

Topic: Introduction to elf Pavlik

elf Pavlik:  Glad to be here, I've been involved in W3C Working 
  Groups and a variety of open source/culture communities for a 
  long time now. Most of my introduction to the group can be found 
Eric Korb: Documentary about elf Pavlik: 

Topic: Signatures Update

Brian Sletten:  I'm happy to help out on this work stream.
Dave Longley:  Basically, we're about getting the RDF dataset 
  algorithm up to date... we have implementations in JavaScript, 
  PHP, Python, and Java.
Dave Longley:  Those implementations are in sync w/ one another - 
  so the spec needs to be brought up to date.
Dave Longley:  We just put out the JSON-LD signatures library.
Manu Sporny:  Here's the library release for JSON-LD signatures: 
Dave Longley is scribing.
Manu Sporny:  At some point we're going to need many more 
  organizations to start using the digital signature mechanism for 
  JSON-LD than just the people in this group. We need to make sure 
  we provide the tooling to make integration easy. The good news is 
  that we've had these libraries for multiple years now, we've done 
  bug fixing and patching here and there, but they are generally 
  stable. W3C depends on outside groups to do implementations, good 
  news is we have 4 implementations (in different languages). We're 
  ahead of the game in that respect.
Manu Sporny:  We are in experimental stage way before we need it 
  [scribe assist by elf Pavlik]
Manu Sporny:  We can move along at a fairly rapid clip.
Manu Sporny:  What we are trying to do with the JSON-LD 
  signatures library is to put something out there to point to, so 
  we can point to working code where that happens. We target 
  node.js and the browser with that library, kill two birds with 
  one stone. We want to integrate this with the JSON-LD playground 
  so people can play with it.
Manu Sporny:  There's been some back and forth with Melvin over 
  adding some new features, etc. So, just a heads up to the group 
  we've got this library out there under a BSD license, use for 
  commercial or non-commercial purposes freely.
Brian Sletten:  I'm assuming there is interest in implementing in 
  other languages like Java, etc.
Dave Longley:  We do have a C++ version out there on Github 
  [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Manu Sporny:  Would it be difficult to bring that up to date? 
  [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Manu Sporny:  Yes, the biggest part is getting the normalization 
  algorithm done, once Dave gets the spec updated we can ask for 
  more implementations.
Dave Longley:  Getting normalization working is not too difficult 
  by looking at other code... we need to get new JSON library. 
  [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Brian Sletten:  Is there a priority/roadmap? [scribe assist by 
  Manu Sporny]
Manu Sporny:  Yes, basically this is what we want to do: Create 
  Roadmap and technical specs. Roadmap should outline how we go 
  from where we are today to full blown credentials ecosystem that 
  we want. Basically, we create roadmap, convince Web Payments IG 
  (or W3C membership) that roadmap on credentials is worth doing. 
  Roadmap outlines the ecosystem - schools, universities, trade 
  schools, recruiters, corporations/universities/non-profits that 
  hire people, expiration of credentials, etc. We move the specs we 
  create into W3C WGs, put them through the W3C process. Then in 
  parallel focus on implementations/helper libraries that make the 
  ecosystem easier to implement for everyone in the ecosystem.

Topic: Context Work Stream Update

Manu Sporny:  Since Nate and Sunny aren't here, we can't make 
  much progress on it. Hopefully they can give us an update via 
  mailing list.

Topic: Roadmap Work Stream update

Mark Leuba:  One area I'm interested in getting feedback fromt he 
  group about - emphasis of the roadmap. One part of the process is 
  getting through w/ technical specifications to hopeful ramping of 
  the standards status.
Mark Leuba:  Another aspect is demonstration of the concept.
Mark Leuba:  My interest is in the latter.
Manu explains what the roadmap is trying to do (vision, macro 
  level exchanges, detail how standards align w/ the ecosystem 
  we're trying to create).
Manu Sporny:  Roadmap should outline how we go from where we are 
  today to full blown credentials ecosystem that we want. 
  Basically, we create roadmap, convince Web Payments IG (or W3C 
  membership) that roadmap on credentials is worth doing. Roadmap 
  outlines the ecosystem - schools, universities, trade schools, 
  recruiters, corporations/universities/non-profits that hire 
  people, expiration of credentials, etc. We move the specs we 
  create into W3C WGs, put them through the W3C process. Then in 
  parallel focus on implementations/helper libraries that make the 
  ecosystem easier to implement for everyone in the ecosystem.
Mark Leuba:  I'd really like to also get involved in the latter - 
  appreciate the explanation. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Manu Sporny:  So that addresses the first question, "What do we 
  want to deliver in this document"
Manu Sporny:  After weeks of discussion that's kind of the 
  approach we're settling on (from web payments group), we're just 
  reusing the thinking from that group and take this and feed it 
  into the Web Payments IG.
Manu Sporny:  It may be more digestible by them with that 
Manu Sporny:  General thoughts from the gruop?
Eric Korb:  I'm wondering what we have to do regarding the 
  concept of integration/support of other standards or proposed 
  standards. For example, Open Badge Interface specification are 
  different from Identity Credentials. Do we need to think about 
  interoperability or not? [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Manu Sporny:  In general, W3C frowns on standards that don't 
  reuse existing standards, the official stamped by W3C 400 member 
  vote, etc. The space that we're in with the credential stuff, 
  nothing really exists. As a secondary thing, no standards body 
  wants to see two standards that do the same thing out there.
Manu Sporny:  That's why we want to align with BA and don't 
  create two standards that do the same thing in the space.
Manu Sporny:  To specifically answer your question we absolutely 
  have to think about interop with open badges, but that doesn't 
  mean historical interop, what we have to say is here is the 
  vision for the future for the next year, and say the BA and what 
  we're doing is interoperable. Our roadmap needs to say something 
  to that effect.
Eric Korb:  Ok, I agree... have another point, but will pass 
  until I get my thoughts together. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Eric Korb:  Context and vocabularies - is that in the roadmap?  
  [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Manu Sporny:  Yes, without those, we don't have interoperability. 
  [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Manu Sporny:  Yes, if we don't have JSON-LD contexts and vocabs 
  our systems won't interop.
Dave Longley:  What we can do is look at most basic credential 
  that we've been working with... based on that, these are the 
  minimum things required in a credential. [scribe assist by Manu 
Eric Korb:  What about a validator? [scribe assist by Manu 
Manu Sporny:  Out of scope typically.
Manu Sporny:  The group can decide to create a validator... let 
  me break it down, things for the standardization process and 
  things for being successful. We need technical specification, 2 
  interop implementations and a test suite. That gets us through 
  the standards process.
Manu Sporny:  That doesn't get you a market adopting what you 
  build, that just gets you a technology to be reviewed by 
  companies, etc.
Manu Sporny:  Next we need things like helper libraries like the 
  JSON-LD signatures lib, commercial implementations, companies 
  saying they back the work, etc. these are things that are needed 
  to make sure the technology can be successful in the market.
Manu Sporny:  If we can get some hot new startup to say they are 
  using the credentials spec/OBI stuff/badges to express things 
  that's a big win. If we can get a c-sharp JSON-Ld signatures 
  implementation and a credentials creation library that's another 
  big win.
Manu Sporny:  To help make this stuff successful getting off the 
Brian Sletten:  Are there any good roadmaps for this stuff to use 
  as examples?
Manu Sporny:  No, a good question, but no, traditionally W3C 
  hasn't had those sorts of things this early on.
Manu Sporny:  Let me try and think a bit on that though.
Manu Sporny:  Might be able to find a good example, but not off 
  the top of my head.
Eric Korb:  I think there was a conversation we had w/ lessons 
  learned w/ JSON-LD. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Eric Korb:  Many of you did JSON-LD, but we have new people. 
  [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Manu Sporny:  Prepping all these docs in a CG so a WG has a set 
  of docs to pick up and run with. That's one of the biggest things 
  you can do, it cuts 1-2 years off WG time just by doing that. And 
  we have much more leeway in how we create those docs ... we can 
  move quickly, they can't move as fast (in WG).
Manu Sporny:  Having a roadmap doc is also good.
Manu Sporny:  The thing that made the JSON-LD work different is 
  that one of the WG has already decided that they wanted to solve 
  the problem. W3C companies said they wanted to solve the problem 
  and we had a solution ready to go. The W3C has not to date said 
  they wanted to solve credentials on the Web. That's one reason we 
  need to have a roadmap to say why we want to solve this on the 
  Web and how we will solve it so we can propose it to the IG.
Manu Sporny: Here you go: 
Manu Sporny: 
Manu Sporny:  W3C has stopped creating wikis for CGs, i don't 
  know if you have to request one or not, if we want to work in 
  wikis we can do that, typically we've just been working in respec 
Manu Sporny:  The editors can use whatever editors they want, 
  just in general W3C wants people to work in collaborative 
  environments, and non-proprietary, like wiki/respec, google docs 
  is next, ms docs are probably last.
Manu Sporny:  Mark and Mary are the task leaders for the roadmap.
Manu Sporny:  Every check in to the opencreds repo goes live 
Manu Sporny:  Any modifications made on the spec show up on the 
  website within 15 seconds.
Manu Sporny:  Elf, if you want to work on any of this stuff we'd 
  be happy to grant you access and do PRs, things of that nature.
Manu Sporny:  How do we go from the roadmap to the future we 
  want. The strategy is that we're going to work on technical specs 
  on what we believe the ecosystem should look like, we're going to 
  demonstrate how various players interop, propose to the IG, IG 
  will make WGs to work on the work items. The WGs start up and 
  standardize the work we're doing here while we work on parallel 
  on the tooling necessary for success of the standards in the 
Manu Sporny:  That's the general strategy we've come to consensus 
  on in the last couple of months, thoughts?
Brian Sletten:  Sounds good.
Brian Sletten:  That sounds like a reasonable strategy. [scribe 
  assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley: +1
Eric Korb:  Does it make sense to setup a timeline for goals? 
  [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
elf Pavlik: Example of optimistic timeline: 
Manu Sporny:  All working groups have to set up a timeline and 
  say when they have to be done, and it always takes way longer 
  than they think it will take. But it may be a useful exercise to 
  set some goals and say by when, etc. If we want to give people 
  the idea that we could be done in 2-4 years, we don't want people 
  to think it will take 15 years to do, they are going off the 
  wheels, etc. A timeline would be good with the understanding it 
  will take way longer than we think it will.,
Manu Sporny:  If someone wants to take a hack at the timeline, 
  please do, it would be a good discussion for the CG to have.
Manu Sporny:  The roadmap doc might not be done for another 3 
  months, hopefully sooner, but it might take that long to get 
  reviews, comments on it, etc.
Manu Sporny:  Any other thoughts on the roadmap doc?
Manu Sporny:  If possible, mark and mary, do you think both of 
  you working together, could you get a draft of this document out 
  by the second week of january?
Mark Leuba:  I believe we can.
Mary Bold:  Agreement from me, I'll back him up.
Manu Sporny:  This will be our last call for a while to focus on 
  getting documents in shape and because of the holidays.
Manu Sporny:  When we come back in January we should have 
  something to review as a group, that's the goal.
Manu Sporny:  The goal I'd like the group to set today.
Dave Longley: +1
Manu Sporny:  Mary, Mark - remind me to show you the docs

Topic: Hosted vs. Signed

elf Pavlik:  I noticed that Open Badges supports both 
  hosted/signed, but the stuff this group is working on is largely 
  signed. Is there still support for hosted badges?
Manu Sporny:  There are still hosted vs. signed. The vast 
  majority of the open badges (in the previous minutes) is hosted, 
  not signed. I think there are a number of people in this group 
  that would like to see this trend change; so the default will be 
  signed and if an issuer site goes away you can still get to the 
  badge. We want people to have the ability to self-host these 
  badges and we want the badges to be valid when they self-host it.
Manu Sporny:  Hopefully that kind of answers that question, both 
  are supported (hosted and signed) in open badges, mostly hosted 
  today, many members here want to do signed as the default, and we 
  want people to be able to host their own badges.
elf Pavlik:  So hosting a badge would be possible but 
  verification would be linked off elsewhere, etc.
Manu Sporny:  Wrt. working on documents, please try to take 
  advantage of the mailing list, so community can follow 
  conversations. [scribe assist by elf Pavlik]
elf Pavlik: +1
Received on Tuesday, 9 December 2014 17:53:11 UTC

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