W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-comments-wcag20@w3.org > August 2011

Re: CSS Technique: Using an invisible header text in the sidebar navigation.

From: Loretta Guarino Reid <lorettaguarino@google.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 19:46:00 -0700
Message-ID: <CAHu5OWYTfUeP3iY17YCVGZ585QrKFiHqSAwVg054EY4WJ3=3og@mail.gmail.com>
To: devarshi pant <devarshipant@gmail.com>
Cc: public-comments-wcag20@w3.org
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 2:55 PM, devarshi pant <devarshipant@gmail.com>wrote:

> Dear Editors  Thank you for the feedback. I have a few comments.
>
>
>
> 1. This is not a sufficient technique for SC 2.4.6, which requires that headings
> and labels be descriptive, but does not require that they be present on
> the page. As such, SC 2.4.6 addresses the text used for the heading or
> label.
>
>
>
> Devarshi: Agreed. This should probably be listed as an advisory to
> Guideline 2.4. Any suggestions are welcome.
>
>
>
>
>
> 2. This could be an advisory technique, that is, a technique that is not sufficient
> for one of the success criteria, but which may make the contents more
> accessible. However, it is still not clear which success criteria this
> should be advisory to. Possibly to Success Criterion 2.4.10 (Section
> Headings are used to organize the content) or to Guideline 2.4 (Provide ways
> to help users navigate, find content, and determine where they are).
>
>
>
> Devarshi: It can be an advisory to Guideline 2.4.
>
>
>
>
>
> 3. We have some concerns about using invisible text in CSS, especially with
> ARIA landmarks on the horizon. The CSS for hiding them is not 100% stable.
> Especially in right-to-left layouts, there are problems which left-to-right
> layouts don't have. There are also ever changing decisions by screen readers
> about what patterns they support. This technique would need to include the
> technical details for how to hide the text using CSS.
>
>
>
> Devarshi: Use of landmark roles and what this technique proposes are two
> different things. Landmark roles are great, but their presence should not
> undermine this technique.
>
>
>
> I am not clear why this instability of text hidden using css is pointed out
> here. Please note that the current w3 and wai pages use a h2 header called
> <Site Navigation> hidden via css; refer to http://www.w3.org/ and
> http://www.w3.org/WAI/. So far, it has worked, and more importantly
> without users even noticing that this header was hidden.
>
>
>
> Regarding the technical details needed,  I will only be able to provide
> the basic CSS required to hide the text.
>
>
>
> Regarding issues with rtl layouts, I am not in favor of this technique
> encompassing multiple design styles. This technique is for ltr layouts, and
> if not including rtl will be a concern, a note stating this could be made in
> the technique. I personally feel the most fundamental idea should be
> conveyed, and then it is upon the designers and developers to supply a CSS
> that hides text in an rtl layout, based on their understanding of this
> technique.
>
>
>
> Regarding differing screen reader patterns, I am not aware of this, not
> since I started using them,  though I cannot rule out changing user
> patterns. Please clarify this point.
>
>
>
> 4. We also have concerns with requiring level 3 headings, rather than whatever
> heading element works in the context of the page structure.
>
>
>
> Devarshi: Agreed. This should be open to any header element.
>
>
>
>
>
> 5. The related techniques do not seem relevant to this technique, in that they
> are not presenting alternative techniques for addressing this requirement.
>
>
>
> Devarshi: G148 seems to be the most relevant. Any suggestions are welcome.
>
>
>
> 6. The test procedure should describe what needs to be true of the coding,
> not how to test operationally. While we find it necessary to provide
> operational tests for general techniques, they are less reliable than tests
> that focus on the underlying technology. See the published CSS techniques
> for examples of how to describe CSS tests.
>
>
>
> Devarshi: Agreed.
>
>
>
> Basically, except 3, the rest is fine with me.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Devarshi
>

================================
Response from the Working Group
================================
As a discussion in the working group concerns about hidden text, we are
planning to draft a general technique about hidden text, both to document
the technical details and the concerns that have been raised about the use
of hidden text.

We don't have a schedule for this work, but when it is finished, you could
combine that technique with this proposal for using hidden text to provide
headings and create an advisory technique to Guideline 2.4.

Loretta Guarino Reid, WCAG WG Co-Chair
Gregg Vanderheiden, WCAG WG Co-Chair
Michael Cooper, WCAG WG Staff Contact


On behalf of the WCAG Working Group
Received on Thursday, 11 August 2011 02:46:35 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Tuesday, 6 January 2015 21:11:14 UTC