- From: Mary Jo Mueller <maryjom@us.ibm.com>
- Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 18:17:11 -0600
- To: Michael Pluke <Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com>
- Cc: "EA Draffan" <ead@ecs.soton.ac.uk>, "Thaddeus ." <inclusivethinking@gmail.com>, Jeanne Spellman <jspellman@spellmanconsulting.com>, "lisa.seeman" <lisa.seeman@zoho.com>, "Milliken, Neil" <neil.milliken@atos.net>, public-cognitive-a11y-tf <public-cognitive-a11y-tf@w3.org>, "Smith, Jim" <smithjs@atos.net>, Steve Lee <steve@opendirective.com>
- Message-Id: <OF01DD3D58.BE81E31B-ON862580C3.00018960-862580C3.00019314@notes.na.collabserv.c>
+1 to both Mike and Steve!
Best regards,
Mary Jo
Mary Jo
Mueller
Accessibility
Standards
Program
Manager
IBM
Accessibility,
IBM Research,
Austin, TX
Phone:
512-286-9698 |
Tie-line:
363-9698
Search for
accessibility
answers
"If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and
become more, you are a leader."
~John Quincy Adams
From: Michael Pluke <Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com>
To: Steve Lee <steve@opendirective.com>, Jeanne Spellman
<jspellman@spellmanconsulting.com>
Cc: "Thaddeus ." <inclusivethinking@gmail.com>,
public-cognitive-a11y-tf <public-cognitive-a11y-tf@w3.org>,
"Milliken, Neil" <neil.milliken@atos.net>, "Smith, Jim"
<smithjs@atos.net>, "lisa.seeman" <lisa.seeman@zoho.com>, "EA
Draffan" <ead@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: 02/09/2017 06:23 AM
Subject: Re: Proposals for revision of the Plain Language SC proposals
for WCAG 2.1
Well said! I certainly second your praise for Lisa's tireless work to get
this done.
Best regards
Mike
Get Outlook for iOS
On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 11:02 AM +0000, "Steve Lee" <steve@opendirective.com
> wrote:
Stepping back a bit, I don't think we should be too hard on ourselves
here. Creating succinct, easily applied and testable SCs is a really
tough job for Coga!!
We, the task force, have put a lot of effort into collecting, researching
and reviewing requirements and techniques for a massively varied group of
users, Somehow, we need to boil that down to a set of SC with just one or
2 lines of text that is designed to be applied generally and precisely.
Huh!?
It strikes me that we are facing the problem of trying to write a
"specification" for a "1 size fits 1" problem!
WCAG has already see some of this with ALT attribs. While it is possible
to state that ALT tags should be provided the exact requirements of users
for ALT text for "eyecandy" images depends on the individual. And the
spec doesn't cover what makes appropriate language for differing users
and differing contexts etc. Thus we've see a lot of blog post discussing
the precise usage of ALT attribs, often from a individual perspective.
That's all part of the fun of a11y standards and Coga hits this problem
full on and write large!
I'd like to thank everyone for all their hard work and dedication on
this. Lisa gets loads of brownie points from me for doing a great job of
herding the requirements cats. Getting SCs into wcag is going to impact a
lot of people in a very positive way.
Rock on!
Steve Lee
OpenDirective http://opendirective.com
On 9 February 2017 at 00:47, Jeanne Spellman <
jspellman@spellmanconsulting.com> wrote:
Many of the formulas for ease of reading in English (e.g.
Flesch-Kincaid) require samples of 100-150 words. That won't work for
labels and menus. The Dale-Chall formula uses a list of 3000 common
words which could address the labels and menus. We wouldn't be able to
require that specific formula (since it needs to be applicable
internationally) although we could reference it in a Technique.
Here is a link to the Dale Chall word list. While I didn't spend a lot
of time looking at terms, I can confirm that it has "home", "about",
"shopping", and "cart". ;)
http://www.readabilityformulas.com/articles/dale-chall-readability-word-list.php
I hope this helps. If AGWG doesn't accept the Plain Language proposals,
then I can work with Jim to either:
* work out some of the flaws in the reading level proposals; or
* figure out what parts of the existing list do match the WCAG SC
requirements, and draft an SC with a more limited scope.
Hopefully, AGWG will agree to the existing proposal. I would love to be
wrong. :)
On 2/8/2017 6:41 PM, Michael Pluke wrote:
We certainly hope that instructions will be short! So I think that
you have raised a very important point about whether there can be
useful measurement of reading level on such short texts.
Mike
From: Smith, Jim [mailto:smithjs@atos.net]
Sent: 08 February 2017 22:04
To: Michael Pluke <Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com>; EA Draffan
<ead@ecs.soton.ac.uk>; Milliken, Neil <neil.milliken@atos.net>;
lisa.seeman <lisa.seeman@zoho.com>
Cc: Thaddeus . <inclusivethinking@gmail.com>;
public-cognitive-a11y-tf <public-cognitive-a11y-tf@w3.org>; Jeanne
Spellman <jspellman@spellmanconsulting.com>
Subject: RE: Proposals for revision of the Plain Language SC
proposals for WCAG 2.1
Interesting stuff – given that error messages, control labels and
critical instructions will tend to be short collections of words,
will this not make any measure of readability statistically
unreliable?
From the reference below I couldn’t find any discussion on the
minimum length of material required for a reading test, but that
may be buried in the references contained or taken as understood
by anyone working in the field.
Jim
From: Michael Pluke [mailto:Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2017 2:11 PM
To: EA Draffan <ead@ecs.soton.ac.uk>; Milliken, Neil <
neil.milliken@atos.net>; lisa.seeman <lisa.seeman@zoho.com>
Cc: Thaddeus . <inclusivethinking@gmail.com>;
public-cognitive-a11y-tf <public-cognitive-a11y-tf@w3.org>; Jeanne
Spellman <jspellman@spellmanconsulting.com>
Subject: RE: Proposals for revision of the Plain Language SC
proposals for WCAG 2.1
Useful sources – thanks EA.
From: EA Draffan [mailto:ead@ecs.soton.ac.uk]
Sent: 07 February 2017 14:31
To: Milliken, Neil <neil.milliken@atos.net>; lisa.seeman <
lisa.seeman@zoho.com>
Cc: Thaddeus . <inclusivethinking@gmail.com>;
public-cognitive-a11y-tf <public-cognitive-a11y-tf@w3.org>; Jeanne
Spellman <jspellman@spellmanconsulting.com>
Subject: RE: Proposals for revision of the Plain Language SC
proposals for WCAG 2.1
I vote 3
Holiday reading or references!
Readability: The limitations of an approach through formulae (this
paper has a definition of readability)
http://www.leeds.ac.uk/educol/documents/213296.pdf
Another very readable discussion about readability and the
limitations of scales, but also measuring sentence length by
number of words etc.
http://www.impact-information.com/impactinfo/Limitations.pdf
old one
https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/15490/why-rf-fail.html?sequence=3
Best wishes
E.A.
Mrs E.A. Draffan
WAIS, ECS , University of Southampton
Mobile +44 (0)7976 289103
http://access.ecs.soton.ac.uk<http://access.ecs.soton.ac.uk/>
UK AAATE rep http://www.aaate.net/
________________________________
From: Milliken, Neil [neil.milliken@atos.net]
Sent: 06 February 2017 23:13
To: lisa.seeman
Cc: Thaddeus .; public-cognitive-a11y-tf; Jeanne Spellman
Subject: Re: Proposals for revision of the Plain Language SC
proposals for WCAG 2.1
I vote 3
Kind regards,
Neil Milliken
Head of Accessibility & Digital Inclusion
Atos
M: 07812325386<tel:07812325386>
E: Neil.Milliken@atos.net<mailto:Neil.Milliken@atos.net>
http://atos.net/iux
http://atos.net/accessibilityservices
@neilmilliken
On 6 Feb 2017, at 22:35, lisa.seeman <lisa.seeman@zoho.com<
mailto:lisa.seeman@zoho.com>> wrote:
I am changing my vote to 3 as well.
The SC as it is incredibly easy to write testing tools for. there
are a few open source language processing tools that you can use
to count cluses actureltys. Testing against a word list is also
something that exists already in restricted language tools and is
very easy to program. It cant be that we need to have a worse SC
and use archaic reading level tools because WCAG are to set in
their ways to accept any new technology.
All the best
Lisa Seeman
LinkedIn<http://il.linkedin.com/in/lisaseeman/>, Twitter<
https://twitter.com/SeemanLisa>
---- On Mon, 06 Feb 2017 21:55:36 +0200 Thaddeus .<
inclusivethinking@gmail.com<mailto:inclusivethinking@gmail.com>>
wrote ----
I vote 3
On Feb 6, 2017 11:08 AM, "lisa.seeman" <lisa.seeman@zoho.com<
mailto:lisa.seeman@zoho.com>> wrote:
We had issues with reading level , for example the word "mode" is
a lower reading level than "hot or cold" . the lower reading level
is much harder to understand.
The reason to go with Jeanne's proposal is because wcag _might_
find it more testable. This would only be, in my opinion, because
they have not bothered read the whole proposal and testability
section (or they do not want new tools) Also i am not sure it is
more testable in different languages and that is essential for
WCAG. Wordlists requiremnts however, can work easily in any
language and wordlists can be automatically generated by parsing a
few sites.
I agree that the "unless..." clause is only human testable but
that it very typical for wcag.
I want to suggest three options
1 - we retract our current pull requests and put these in instead
2 - we go with the current pull requests. If they fail and the
comments are hard to address then we go with Jeanne's
3 -we go with the current pull requests. we can revisit this if
needed
My vote is 3, to go with the current wording and see what happens
All the best
Lisa Seeman
LinkedIn<http://il.linkedin.com/in/lisaseeman/>, Twitter<
https://twitter.com/SeemanLisa>
---- On Mon, 06 Feb 2017 20:00:24 +0200 Jeanne Spellman<
jspellman@spellmanconsulting.com<
mailto:jspellman@spellmanconsulting.com>> wrote ----
A group of us at The Paciello Group (TPG) have been meeting every
week in January to comment on the WCAG 2.1 proposals. Because we
test WCAG 2.0 all day, every (business) day, we have a lot of
experience with both the language of WCAG and the testing of WCAG.
What we decided this week is that we want to focus our efforts
toward helping COGA TF draft success criteria that will get into
WCAG 2.1 and will accomplish most of what you want -- even if it
is phrased differently.
We started with the proposals that we thought would be the least
controversial to the WCAG WG to include. I looked at the Plain
Language proposals and did my best to look at the needs identified
by COGA TF, and craft language that I thought would be acceptable
to the WCAG WG and be included in the first draft version of WCAG
2.1.
The wording is quite different, but in my opinion, addresses the
needs identified. I chose reading level, because it is
internationally standardized, and there are automated tests
already available. When I look at Technique G153: Making the text
easier to read https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G153.html , it
covers most of the items that the COGA TF identified.
Issue 30 Proposal:
Understandable Labels: Navigation elements and form labels do not
require reading ability greater than primary education level. (A)
[link to WCAG’s definition of primary education level from UNESCO
standard]
Issue 41:
Understandable Instructions: Headings, error messages and
instructions for completing tasks do not require reading ability
greater than lower secondary education level. (AA) [link to WCAG’s
definition of lower secondary level from UNESCO standard]
Delta 3.1.5 (rewrite of existing WCAG 3.1.5)
Understandable Content: Blocks of text either: (AAA)
· have a reading level no more advanced than lower secondary
education, or
· a version is provided that does not require reading ability more
advanced than lower secondary education. [links to WCAG’s
definitions of lower secondary education and blocks of text]
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Received on Friday, 10 February 2017 00:18:00 UTC