Re: [minutes] Apr 30 teleconf

Hi folks, 

Sorry for missing the call as well.

We were in the middle of a F2F on Testing and I had to set priorities.

There's plenty I'd like to contribute here, but as all of us, I'm time-strapped.

Dom, what timeline are you looking at? Knowing when you want what done would be really helpful.

--tobie

On Wednesday, May 1, 2013 at 5:35 AM, Daniel Appelquist wrote: 
> Hi all - Apologies for missing this call.
> 
> I'd like to offer my support to both the UX workstream and the offline
> support workstream. Happy to collaborate on either of these.
> 
> Dan
> 
> On 30/04/2013 17:27, "Dominique Hazael-Massieux" <dom@w3.org (mailto:dom@w3.org)> wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > The minutes of our call today are available
> > at:
> > http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html (thanks Jo
> > and
> > Marcos for scribing).
> > 
> > I'm including a text version of the minutes
> > below.
> > 
> > I'll follow up on Thursday with a summary and a call for volunteers
> > on
> > the items that haven't been picked up yet.
> > 
> > Dom
> > 
> > 
> > Closing the Gap
> > 
> > 30 Apr 2013
> > 
> > [2]Agenda
> > 
> > 
> > [2]
> > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-closingthegap/2013Apr/0038.ht
> > ml
> > 
> > See also: [3]IRC log
> > 
> > [3]
> > http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-irc
> > 
> > Attendees
> > 
> > Present
> > 
> > dom, jo, Scott_Jenson Dan.Sun, Christine_Perey, Marcos,
> > Virginie
> > 
> > 
> > Regrets
> > Charles, Frederick
> > 
> > Chair
> > Dom
> > 
> > Scribe
> > 
> > Jo, Marcos
> > 
> > Contents
> > 
> > * [4]Topics
> > 1. [5]intro
> > 2.
> > [6]Run though of list of Topics and Action Plan
> > 3. [7]Support for
> > Offline Operations
> > 4. [8]Network Optimizations
> > 5.
> > [9]Searching Web Apps
> > 6. [10]Web Apps User Experience
> > *
> > [11]Summary of Action Items
> > 
> > __________________________________________________________
> > 
> > <scribe>
> > scribe: Jo
> > 
> > intro
> > 
> > dom: everyone clear as to the purpose of the meeting,
> > to
> > develop action plans as mentioned in the email
> > ... going round the
> > table. say something, say hello.
> > ... have we covered the main topics ?
> > 
> > 
> > Jo: Jo Rabin, have been involved in a few W3C things, W3C
> > Mobile Web Best
> > Practices WG, and the W3C CoreMob CG
> > 
> > ... I'm interested in Mobile Web,
> > not particularly interested
> > in native apps even though they may have a
> > place in the
> > universe
> > 
> > ... I believe the main things of interest have
> > been mentioned,
> > despite relative lack of in depth analysis
> > 
> > ... I'm
> > not sure we have aligned mind sets on the key points
> > yet
> > 
> > scott: first
> > W3C meeting here to learn, approach from a design
> > point of view
> > ...
> > don't want to push for a tech agenda, want to now what an
> > app is, what
> > are the things that make the Web special
> > ... looking at the problem from
> > a high level point of view
> > 
> > dan: have been involved in the [Coremob]
> > community group,
> > appreciate Dom's work
> > ... what's the advantage of the
> > Web? There was a discussion,
> > still not too clear
> > ... we are trying to
> > close the gap, we have a number of issues
> > to work out, I'd like to bring
> > up the advantages as well as
> > working on the gaps
> > 
> > dom: agree on the
> > point re the advantage of the web, are you
> > saying we haven't looked, or
> > haven't looked deeply enough?
> > 
> > dan: would be good to have a document,
> > more than the one email
> > discussion
> > 
> > dom: I'll put my thoughts on the
> > list
> > 
> > christine: came into the discussion becasue I was aware of the
> > 
> > Coremob work, work in AR, want to see it as a feature of all
> > presentation
> > vehicles rather than being 'an app'
> > ... been working in AR stds community
> > for 4 years, regularly
> > come around on Web vs Native, lots of W3C
> > standards that could
> > make AR part of the browser experience but they are
> > not being
> > used that way
> > 
> > dom: encourage you to raise that gap on the
> > list
> > 
> > christine: I wouldn't be the best person to represent all devs
> > 
> > 
> > dom: your own point of view would be welcome
> > 
> > Marcos: involved with
> > sysapps WG - there is an obvious overlap
> > between this and that
> > ...
> > think that the stuff Dom has brought together is great
> > ... good to have
> > brought the ideas together
> > ... sysapps is interested to hear what comes
> > out so we can
> > address as soon as possible
> > 
> > dom: what gaps do you
> > see?
> > 
> > marcos: gaps everywhere. working on a lot of technologues to
> > 
> > address those gaps
> > ... Web has of itself lots of advantages
> > ... should
> > be a sense of urgency about closing and
> > leap-frogging the native app
> > space
> > ... have a good set of technologies, just need to bring it
> > 
> > together
> > 
> > Dom: introducing myself, head of W3C Mobile Web Intiative
> > 
> > ... edit Standards for Mobile Web Apps, summary of where things
> > are
> > 
> > ... also been working Coremob on to be the Web and Mobile IG
> > ... as to
> > gaps ... I've tried to push all that I had
> > ... but realise I forgot
> > integrating Content into search in
> > local context, not available to Web
> > apps, some oppos for
> > integration
> > ... lots of [alphabet soup] :-)
> > 
> > 
> > Scott: this is tarting the conversation as to what are the
> > primary goals,
> > Google already working on a model to install Web
> > apps
> > ... but this
> > does not play to the super power of the Web
> > ... do we want to be
> > installed, or do we want to experience the
> > app
> > ... need to distinguish
> > the packaging from the experience
> > 
> > dom: mostly about integration with the
> > environment
> > ... Web apps should be able to integrate with this
> > ...
> > question you raise and that we have struggled with is how
> > far do we want
> > to copy the native app experience, and how far
> > do we want to push the
> > no-install purely in browser experience
> > ... W3C is pursuing both
> > spproaches. there are advantages to
> > both so that is reasonable
> > ...
> > there is a wealth of opportunities that installation
> > removes (... lack of
> > censorship and so on ...)
> > ... all of us on the call and list believe that
> > the Web brings
> > specific unique advantages
> > ... a long term platform
> > that =has the right level of
> > investmanet attnetion etc.
> > ... need to
> > think about wehre native apps are superior
> > ... leapfrog as Marcos says is
> > better than closing the gap
> > ... pur intallable vs pure in-browser is
> > something we could
> > address and include in various proposals
> > ...
> > [comapre and contrast what we could say about pros and
> > cons]
> > ... we
> > need to have clear understanding of advantages and
> > drawback of both
> > approaches
> > ... social contract discussion was pretty rich in that regard
> > 
> > ... but where does that leave us in thinking about investment
> > ... so goal
> > is to figure where to apply resources
> > 
> > <ScottJ> Well put, I just don't
> > want us to aspire to catch up
> > to where apps were 5 years ago. The web can
> > go beyond what
> > native apps can't do..
> > 
> > Jo: I feel pretty strongly that
> > there are areas that the Web
> > has been left in the dust
> > ... there are
> > real areas: mindshare, monetization, ...
> > ... I feel our energy would be
> > best invested in bringing
> > forward the Web advantages
> > ... that's where
> > we're most likely to be successful
> > ... where the Web is unique
> > ... in
> > particular, in the cross-platform realm
> > ... as long as the Web is good
> > enough compared to native
> > otherwise
> > 
> > dom: that's a clear position, I
> > think I agree with that
> > characterisation with the possible exception that
> > the Web may
> > not be good enough in any particular area
> > 
> > jo: I don't
> > disagree with what you say
> > 
> > ]dan: I wagree with Jo, we should look at the
> > unique advantages
> > of the Web
> > 
> > <ScottJ_> +1
> > 
> > scribe: to simply say
> > close the gap, the topic is huge, native
> > has its own advantages
> > ...
> > emphasize the Web's advantages
> > 
> > dom: was only one of the starting points,
> > we haven't discussed
> > it much and will send my thoughts on this
> > 
> > 
> > <cperey> I'm signing off for toda
> > 
> > dom: will people contribute their
> > dieas on how we can
> > captialize on the unique advantages of the Web
> > 
> > 
> > <cperey> bye
> > 
> > dom: I'll do my best tos end my thoughts and hope that
> > people
> > will sent theirs too
> > 
> > Run though of list of Topics and Action
> > Plan
> > 
> > dom: I sent a description earlier on list
> > ... also sent list of
> > actions that W3C could take e.g. create
> > WG, workshops, putting more
> > resources into WG
> > ... etc etc etc
> > ... for each topic I'd like to see
> > what action could be taken
> > ... and to assess whether people think that
> > this is a sensible
> > action plan
> > ... may be difficult to get hold of
> > people
> > ... task force will support people taking actions
> > ... if we
> > don't make proposals then we won't get more resources
> > ... important to
> > get actual stuff defined and proposed
> > ... so one by one on the
> > list
> > 
> > Support for Offline Operations
> > 
> > Dom: the existing technologies are
> > "underwhelming", there is
> > work in this space
> > ... work is very
> > important for a huge number of use cases
> > ... would make sense to make a
> > plan to accelerate that work
> > 
> > +1 on it being importan
> > 
> > marcos: yes,
> > important, Mozilla has made a proposal
> > 
> > <dom>
> > 
> > [12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013JanM
> > 
> > ar/0977.html
> > 
> > [12]
> > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013JanMar/0977.html
> > 
> > dom: was linked from my original message
> > 
> > marcos: tricky to get
> > realistic, difficult to get momentum
> > 
> > dom: agree difficult to get browser
> > vendor buy-in
> > ... one way would be to get feedback from wide variety of
> > 
> > developers
> > ... could help test
> > ... light fires under people
> > ...
> > Alex Russel from Google also made a proposal
> > ... anyone going to make a
> > stab at making an action plan
> > ... aw, shucks, I'll take this one, but I
> > am not going to do
> > all of them!
> > 
> > <dom> ACTION: Dom to create action
> > plan for offline support
> > [recorded in
> > 
> > [13]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
> > ion01]
> > 
> > 
> > <Marcos>
> > [14]https://github.com/slightlyoff/NavigationController
> > 
> > 
> > [14] https://github.com/slightlyoff/NavigationController
> > 
> > marcos: what's
> > the alternative proposal
> > 
> > dom: navigation controller
> > 
> > <Marcos>
> > marcos:
> > [15]https://github.com/slightlyoff/NavigationController
> > 
> > 
> > [15] https://github.com/slightlyoff/NavigationController
> > 
> > jo: surely this
> > is a discussion that has happened in depth and
> > one of the participants
> > could take lead?
> > 
> > dom: yes, I'll contact Tobie and Robin
> > 
> > Network
> > Optimizations
> > 
> > dom: to be effective on mobile you need to be reactive to
> > 
> > various network conditions
> > ... especially for download etc.
> > ...
> > related is that operators are suffeering from badly managed
> > movbile
> > operation
> > ... couple of proposals on list on how we can address this
> > 
> > ... anyone want to pick this up?
> > ... Dan is an operator, how about it?
> > 
> > 
> > jo: how about Dan Appelquist
> > 
> > Marcos: work is important but very broad
> > 
> > ... does it make sense to break it up
> > ... responsive images ...
> > relationship with HTTP/2.0
> > 
> > dom: you volunteering?
> > 
> > marcos: already
> > doing work on this, what are you looking for?
> > 
> > dom: come up with an
> > action plan ... looking at broad topic and
> > suggestion actions that will
> > make the Web more competitive
> > ... see the link with Resposive Images,
> > wouldn't want to limit
> > it
> > 
> > Marcos: I know waht I know about
> > ... but
> > don't know the whole perspective from an operator so
> > would want to work
> > with someone like Dan Appelquist
> > 
> > dom: want one name, you can then work
> > with anyone you like
> > 
> > <ScottJ_> Happy to help
> > 
> > dom: plus tobie and
> > bryan from AT&T
> > ... no shortage of people to pick their brains
> > 
> > 
> > Marcos: OK
> > 
> > <dom> ACTION: Marcos to define action plan for network
> > 
> > optimizations [recorded in
> > 
> > [16]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
> > 
> > ion02]
> > 
> > Searching Web Apps
> > 
> > dom: we discussed earlier highlight benefit
> > of Web, this is at
> > the the frontier
> > ... traditionally Web is the
> > platform for searching
> > ... huge beneit
> > ... that said I it works well
> > for content it don't work work
> > too good for local content, content behind
> > walls etc.
> > ... search is less effective. Devs say that if I want my
> > stuff
> > to be visible I need to be on native app store
> > ... very little
> > interest in app store model, lack of visibility
> > of Web apps keeps people
> > from using Web app approach
> > ... anyone going to look deeper into this?
> > 
> > ... that means folks don't think important
> > ... I'll try to stick this to
> > Chaals
> > ... otherwise we wont be recommending it
> > 
> > Web Apps User
> > Experience
> > 
> > dom: finding the right balance between integration and the
> > lack
> > of installation
> > ... what can W3C do to help in that convo
> > ...
> > we don't have a clear idea at all about what W3C could or
> > should be
> > doing
> > 
> > <ScottJ_> I'd love to help but I'm such a w3c noob I'm worried
> > 
> > that I might not have the right approach
> > 
> > dom: action plan to refocus on
> > some specific ideas
> > ... Scott you are the ideal geezer to do this
> > 
> > 
> > dom: need to find out if any of the topics we have discussed
> > needs
> > acrtion, not only from W3C, but how can W3C help?
> > 
> > <ScottJ_> great, sign
> > me up, but be prepared for a few phone
> > calls... ;-)
> > 
> > marcos: at the
> > last Webapps meeting Mozilla proposed a manifest
> > format
> > 
> > <Marcos>
> > [17]http://manifest.sysapps.org/
> > 
> > [17] http://manifest.sysapps.org/
> > 
> > 
> > marcos: which basically serves as the installation manifest for
> > Web
> > application
> > ... topic relates to installed and not installed and where
> > they
> > come together
> > ... interested in pushing the work in W3C
> > ...
> > has been in ??? but moving over to Webapps which has more
> > browser
> > vendors
> > 
> > <ScottJ_> <sorry, I have a hard 9am meeting, have to drop off.
> > 
> > I think I'm on the hook, let's follow up via email>
> > 
> > marcos: want to look
> > at this from a higher level, less tech
> > perspective, look at use cases
> > 
> > 
> > <ScottJ_> thanks, enjoyed this!
> > 
> > <ScottJ_> bye
> > 
> > marcos: scott's on the
> > hook!
> > 
> > <dom> ACTION: ScottJ to lead work on action plan for web apps
> > 
> > UX [recorded in
> > 
> > [18]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
> > ion03]
> > 
> > 
> > <inserted> ScribeNick: Marcos
> > 
> > dom: the next one is security
> > ...
> > Luckly we have virginie here. This one deals with secure
> > transactions,
> > securing data. We've had a short discussion on
> > the list already. I feel
> > there is no reason why the Web should
> > be behind with regards to
> > security.
> > ... I'm looking for expressions of support. And for a
> > 
> > volunteer.
> > 
> > virginie: we (Gemalto) are interested in this area.
> > 
> > dom:
> > what I'm looking for is for someone to help document what
> > the gaps are
> > between native and web with regards to crypto and
> > security.
> > 
> > virginie:
> > what's the deadline
> > ... ?
> > 
> > dom: sometime in the next 3 or 4 weeks?
> > 
> > 
> > virginie: I'm not sure if I can do it that quickly. But I will
> > do my best
> > :)
> > 
> > <dom> ACTION: Virginie to lead work on action plan for Security
> > of
> > Web apps [recorded in
> > 
> > [19]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
> > ion04]
> > 
> > 
> > dom: thanks. I'm not asking for a complete analysis, just for a
> > fairly
> > light analysis of the gap to help guide us.
> > ... another one that I wanted
> > to mention, which has received
> > limited attention on the list is AppCache.
> > AppCache has had
> > issues, even though it's been around for 6 years, but
> > it's
> > taken 4 years for people to say that it was not the right
> > 
> > solution.
> > ... I was interested in looking at what happened and why it
> > 
> > took so long to address this problem. Is there something that
> > the W3C
> > could have done better? It would be good to look into
> > what happened.
> > 
> > ... any feedback on this?
> > 
> > [20]http://prollyfill.org/
> > 
> > [20]
> > http://prollyfill.org/
> > 
> > <dom> [21]http://www.w3.org/community/nextweb/
> > 
> > 
> > [21] http://www.w3.org/community/nextweb/
> > 
> > MC: the TAG is also looking at
> > this problem
> > ... and [22]http://prollyfill.org/ is also looking at this
> > 
> > 
> > [22] http://prollyfill.org/
> > 
> > <dom> functional Web,in-context discovery,
> > consistency and
> > dependency, developer tools
> > 
> > dom: the remaining items
> > that need volunteers are: functional
> > Web,in-context discovery,
> > consistency and dependency, developer
> > tools
> > 
> > Summary of Action Items
> > 
> > 
> > [NEW] ACTION: Dom to create action plan for offline support
> > [recorded in
> > 
> > [23]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
> > ion01]
> > 
> > [NEW] ACTION: Marcos to define action plan for network
> > optimizations
> > [recorded in
> > 
> > [24]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
> > ion02]
> > 
> > [NEW] ACTION: ScottJ to lead work on action plan for web apps
> > UX
> > [recorded in
> > 
> > [25]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
> > ion03]
> > 
> > [NEW] ACTION: Virginie to lead work on action plan for Security
> > of Web
> > apps [recorded in
> > 
> > [26]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
> > ion04]
> > 
> > 
> > [End of minutes]

Received on Wednesday, 1 May 2013 10:48:33 UTC