Re: [minutes] Apr 30 teleconf

Hi all - Apologies for missing this call.

I'd like to offer my support to both the UX workstream and the offline
support workstream.  Happy to collaborate on either of these.

Dan

On 30/04/2013 17:27, "Dominique Hazael-Massieux" <dom@w3.org> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>The minutes of our call today are available
>at:
>http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html (thanks Jo
>and
>Marcos for scribing).
>
>I'm including a text version of the minutes
>below.
>
>I'll follow up on Thursday with a summary and a call for volunteers
>on
>the items that haven't been picked up yet.
>
>Dom
>
>
>Closing the Gap
>
>30 Apr 2013
>
>   [2]Agenda
>
>
>[2]
>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-closingthegap/2013Apr/0038.ht
>ml
>
>   See also: [3]IRC log
>
>      [3]
>http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-irc
>
>Attendees
>
>   Present
>
>dom, jo, Scott_Jenson Dan.Sun, Christine_Perey, Marcos,
>          Virginie
>
>
>Regrets
>          Charles, Frederick
>
>   Chair
>          Dom
>
>   Scribe
>
>Jo, Marcos
>
>Contents
>
>     * [4]Topics
>         1. [5]intro
>         2.
>[6]Run though of list of Topics and Action Plan
>         3. [7]Support for
>Offline Operations
>         4. [8]Network Optimizations
>         5.
>[9]Searching Web Apps
>         6. [10]Web Apps User Experience
>     *
>[11]Summary of Action Items
>
>__________________________________________________________
>
>   <scribe>
>scribe: Jo
>
>intro
>
>   dom: everyone clear as to the purpose of the meeting,
>to
>   develop action plans as mentioned in the email
>   ... going round the
>table. say something, say hello.
>   ... have we covered the main topics ?
>
>
>Jo: Jo Rabin, have been involved in a few W3C things, W3C
>   Mobile Web Best
>Practices WG, and the W3C CoreMob CG
>
>   ... I'm interested in Mobile Web,
>not particularly interested
>   in native apps even though they may have a
>place in the
>   universe
>
>   ... I believe the main things of interest have
>been mentioned,
>   despite relative lack of in depth analysis
>
>   ... I'm
>not sure we have aligned mind sets on the key points
>   yet
>
>   scott: first
>W3C meeting here to learn, approach from a design
>   point of view
>   ...
>don't want to push for a tech agenda, want to now what an
>   app is, what
>are the things that make the Web special
>   ... looking at the problem from
>a high level point of view
>
>   dan: have been involved in the [Coremob]
>community group,
>   appreciate Dom's work
>   ... what's the advantage of the
>Web? There was a discussion,
>   still not too clear
>   ... we are trying to
>close the gap, we have a number of issues
>   to work out, I'd like to bring
>up the advantages as well as
>   working on the gaps
>
>   dom: agree on the
>point re the advantage of the web, are you
>   saying we haven't looked, or
>haven't looked deeply enough?
>
>   dan: would be good to have a document,
>more than the one email
>   discussion
>
>   dom: I'll put my thoughts on the
>list
>
>   christine: came into the discussion becasue I was aware of the
>
>Coremob work, work in AR, want to see it as a feature of all
>   presentation
>vehicles rather than being 'an app'
>   ... been working in AR stds community
>for 4 years, regularly
>   come around on Web vs Native, lots of W3C
>standards that could
>   make AR part of the browser experience but they are
>not being
>   used that way
>
>   dom: encourage you to raise that gap on the
>list
>
>   christine: I wouldn't be the best person to represent all devs
>
>
>dom: your own point of view would be welcome
>
>   Marcos: involved with
>sysapps WG - there is an obvious overlap
>   between this and that
>   ...
>think that the stuff Dom has brought together is great
>   ... good to have
>brought the ideas together
>   ... sysapps is interested to hear what comes
>out so we can
>   address as soon as possible
>
>   dom: what gaps do you
>see?
>
>   marcos: gaps everywhere. working on a lot of technologues to
>
>address those gaps
>   ... Web has of itself lots of advantages
>   ... should
>be a sense of urgency about closing and
>   leap-frogging the native app
>space
>   ... have a good set of technologies, just need to bring it
>
>together
>
>   Dom: introducing myself, head of W3C Mobile Web Intiative
>
>... edit Standards for Mobile Web Apps, summary of where things
>   are
>
>... also been working Coremob on to be the Web and Mobile IG
>   ... as to
>gaps ... I've tried to push all that I had
>   ... but realise I forgot
>integrating Content into search in
>   local context, not available to Web
>apps, some oppos for
>   integration
>   ... lots of [alphabet soup] :-)
>
>
>Scott: this is tarting the conversation as to what are the
>   primary goals,
>Google already working on a model to install Web
>   apps
>   ... but this
>does not play to the super power of the Web
>   ... do we want to be
>installed, or do we want to experience the
>   app
>   ... need to distinguish
>the packaging from the experience
>
>   dom: mostly about integration with the
>environment
>   ... Web apps should be able to integrate with this
>   ...
>question you raise and that we have struggled with is how
>   far do we want
>to copy the native app experience, and how far
>   do we want to push the
>no-install purely in browser experience
>   ... W3C is pursuing both
>spproaches. there are advantages to
>   both so that is reasonable
>   ...
>there is a wealth of opportunities that installation
>   removes (... lack of
>censorship and so on ...)
>   ... all of us on the call and list believe that
>the Web brings
>   specific unique advantages
>   ... a long term platform
>that =has the right level of
>   investmanet attnetion etc.
>   ... need to
>think about wehre native apps are superior
>   ... leapfrog as Marcos says is
>better than closing the gap
>   ... pur intallable vs pure in-browser is
>something we could
>   address and include in various proposals
>   ...
>[comapre and contrast what we could say about pros and
>   cons]
>   ... we
>need to have clear understanding of advantages and
>   drawback of both
>approaches
>   ... social contract discussion was pretty rich in that regard
>
>... but where does that leave us in thinking about investment
>   ... so goal
>is to figure where to apply resources
>
>   <ScottJ> Well put, I just don't
>want us to aspire to catch up
>   to where apps were 5 years ago. The web can
>go beyond what
>   native apps can't do..
>
>   Jo: I feel pretty strongly that
>there are areas that the Web
>   has been left in the dust
>   ... there are
>real areas: mindshare, monetization, ...
>   ... I feel our energy would be
>best invested in bringing
>   forward the Web advantages
>   ... that's where
>we're most likely to be successful
>   ... where the Web is unique
>   ... in
>particular, in the cross-platform realm
>   ... as long as the Web is good
>enough compared to native
>   otherwise
>
>   dom: that's a clear position, I
>think I agree with that
>   characterisation with the possible exception that
>the Web may
>   not be good enough in any particular area
>
>   jo: I don't
>disagree with what you say
>
>   ]dan: I wagree with Jo, we should look at the
>unique advantages
>   of the Web
>
>   <ScottJ_> +1
>
>   scribe: to simply say
>close the gap, the topic is huge, native
>   has its own advantages
>   ...
>emphasize the Web's advantages
>
>   dom: was only one of the starting points,
>we haven't discussed
>   it much and will send my thoughts on this
>
>
><cperey> I'm signing off for toda
>
>   dom: will people contribute their
>dieas on how we can
>   captialize on the unique advantages of the Web
>
>
><cperey> bye
>
>   dom: I'll do my best tos end my thoughts and hope that
>people
>   will sent theirs too
>
>Run though of list of Topics and Action
>Plan
>
>   dom: I sent a description earlier on list
>   ... also sent list of
>actions that W3C could take e.g. create
>   WG, workshops, putting more
>resources into WG
>   ... etc etc etc
>   ... for each topic I'd like to see
>what action could be taken
>   ... and to assess whether people think that
>this is a sensible
>   action plan
>   ... may be difficult to get hold of
>people
>   ... task force will support people taking actions
>   ... if we
>don't make proposals then we won't get more resources
>   ... important to
>get actual stuff defined and proposed
>   ... so one by one on the
>list
>
>Support for Offline Operations
>
>   Dom: the existing technologies are
>"underwhelming", there is
>   work in this space
>   ... work is very
>important for a huge number of use cases
>   ... would make sense to make a
>plan to accelerate that work
>
>   +1 on it being importan
>
>   marcos: yes,
>important, Mozilla has made a proposal
>
>   <dom>
>
>[12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013JanM
>
>ar/0977.html
>
>     
>[12]
>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013JanMar/0977.html
>
>   dom: was linked from my original message
>
>   marcos: tricky to get
>realistic, difficult to get momentum
>
>   dom: agree difficult to get browser
>vendor buy-in
>   ... one way would be to get feedback from wide variety of
>
>developers
>   ... could help test
>   ... light fires under people
>   ...
>Alex Russel from Google also made a proposal
>   ... anyone going to make a
>stab at making an action plan
>   ... aw, shucks, I'll take this one, but I
>am not going to do
>   all of them!
>
>   <dom> ACTION: Dom to create action
>plan for offline support
>   [recorded in
>
>[13]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
>   ion01]
>
>
><Marcos>
>   [14]https://github.com/slightlyoff/NavigationController
>
>
>[14] https://github.com/slightlyoff/NavigationController
>
>   marcos: what's
>the alternative proposal
>
>   dom: navigation controller
>
>   <Marcos>
>marcos:
>   [15]https://github.com/slightlyoff/NavigationController
>
>
>[15] https://github.com/slightlyoff/NavigationController
>
>   jo: surely this
>is a discussion that has happened in depth and
>   one of the participants
>could take lead?
>
>   dom: yes, I'll contact Tobie and Robin
>
>Network
>Optimizations
>
>   dom: to be effective on mobile you need to be reactive to
>
>various network conditions
>   ... especially for download etc.
>   ...
>related is that operators are suffeering from badly managed
>   movbile
>operation
>   ... couple of proposals on list on how we can address this
>
>... anyone want to pick this up?
>   ... Dan is an operator, how about it?
>
>
>jo: how about Dan Appelquist
>
>   Marcos: work is important but very broad
>
>... does it make sense to break it up
>   ... responsive images ...
>relationship with HTTP/2.0
>
>   dom: you volunteering?
>
>   marcos: already
>doing work on this, what are you looking for?
>
>   dom: come up with an
>action plan ... looking at broad topic and
>   suggestion actions that will
>make the Web more competitive
>   ... see the link with Resposive Images,
>wouldn't want to limit
>   it
>
>   Marcos: I know waht I know about
>   ... but
>don't know the whole perspective from an operator so
>   would want to work
>with someone like Dan Appelquist
>
>   dom: want one name, you can then work
>with anyone you like
>
>   <ScottJ_> Happy to help
>
>   dom: plus tobie and
>bryan from AT&T
>   ... no shortage of people to pick their brains
>
>
>Marcos: OK
>
>   <dom> ACTION: Marcos to define action plan for network
>
>optimizations [recorded in
>
>[16]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
>
>ion02]
>
>Searching Web Apps
>
>   dom: we discussed earlier highlight benefit
>of Web, this is at
>   the the frontier
>   ... traditionally Web is the
>platform for searching
>   ... huge beneit
>   ... that said I it works well
>for content it don't work work
>   too good for local content, content behind
>walls etc.
>   ... search is less effective. Devs say that if I want my
>stuff
>   to be visible I need to be on native app store
>   ... very little
>interest in app store model, lack of visibility
>   of Web apps keeps people
>from using Web app approach
>   ... anyone going to look deeper into this?
>
>... that means folks don't think important
>   ... I'll try to stick this to
>Chaals
>   ... otherwise we wont be recommending it
>
>Web Apps User
>Experience
>
>   dom: finding the right balance between integration and the
>lack
>   of installation
>   ... what can W3C do to help in that convo
>   ...
>we don't have a clear idea at all about what W3C could or
>   should be
>doing
>
>   <ScottJ_> I'd love to help but I'm such a w3c noob I'm worried
>
>that I might not have the right approach
>
>   dom: action plan to refocus on
>some specific ideas
>   ... Scott you are the ideal geezer to do this
>
>
>dom: need to find out if any of the topics we have discussed
>   needs
>acrtion, not only from W3C, but how can W3C help?
>
>   <ScottJ_> great, sign
>me up, but be prepared for a few phone
>   calls... ;-)
>
>   marcos: at the
>last Webapps meeting Mozilla proposed a manifest
>   format
>
>   <Marcos>
>[17]http://manifest.sysapps.org/
>
>     [17] http://manifest.sysapps.org/
>
>
>marcos: which basically serves as the installation manifest for
>   Web
>application
>   ... topic relates to installed and not installed and where
>they
>   come together
>   ... interested in pushing the work in W3C
>   ...
>has been in ??? but moving over to Webapps which has more
>   browser
>vendors
>
>   <ScottJ_> <sorry, I have a hard 9am meeting, have to drop off.
>
>I think I'm on the hook, let's follow up via email>
>
>   marcos: want to look
>at this from a higher level, less tech
>   perspective, look at use cases
>
>
><ScottJ_> thanks, enjoyed this!
>
>   <ScottJ_> bye
>
>   marcos: scott's on the
>hook!
>
>   <dom> ACTION: ScottJ to lead work on action plan for web apps
>
>UX [recorded in
>   
>[18]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
>   ion03]
>
>
><inserted> ScribeNick: Marcos
>
>   dom: the next one is security
>   ...
>Luckly we have virginie here. This one deals with secure
>   transactions,
>securing data. We've had a short discussion on
>   the list already. I feel
>there is no reason why the Web should
>   be behind with regards to
>security.
>   ... I'm looking for expressions of support. And for a
>
>volunteer.
>
>   virginie: we (Gemalto) are interested in this area.
>
>   dom:
>what I'm looking for is for someone to help document what
>   the gaps are
>between native and web with regards to crypto and
>   security.
>
>   virginie:
>what's the deadline
>   ... ?
>
>   dom: sometime in the next 3 or 4 weeks?
>
>
>virginie: I'm not sure if I can do it that quickly. But I will
>   do my best
>:)
>
>   <dom> ACTION: Virginie to lead work on action plan for Security
>   of
>Web apps [recorded in
>
>[19]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
>   ion04]
>
>
>dom: thanks. I'm not asking for a complete analysis, just for a
>   fairly
>light analysis of the gap to help guide us.
>   ... another one that I wanted
>to mention, which has received
>   limited attention on the list is AppCache.
>AppCache has had
>   issues, even though it's been around for 6 years, but
>it's
>   taken 4 years for people to say that it was not the right
>
>solution.
>   ... I was interested in looking at what happened and why it
>
>took so long to address this problem. Is there something that
>   the W3C
>could have done better? It would be good to look into
>   what happened.
>
>... any feedback on this?
>
>   [20]http://prollyfill.org/
>
>     [20]
>http://prollyfill.org/
>
>   <dom> [21]http://www.w3.org/community/nextweb/
>
>
>[21] http://www.w3.org/community/nextweb/
>
>   MC: the TAG is also looking at
>this problem
>   ... and [22]http://prollyfill.org/ is also looking at this
>
>
>[22] http://prollyfill.org/
>
>   <dom> functional Web,in-context discovery,
>consistency and
>   dependency, developer tools
>
>   dom: the remaining items
>that need volunteers are: functional
>   Web,in-context discovery,
>consistency and dependency, developer
>   tools
>
>Summary of Action Items
>
>
>[NEW] ACTION: Dom to create action plan for offline support
>   [recorded in
>
>[23]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
>   ion01]
>
>[NEW] ACTION: Marcos to define action plan for network
>   optimizations
>[recorded in
>   
>[24]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
>   ion02]
>
>[NEW] ACTION: ScottJ to lead work on action plan for web apps
>   UX
>[recorded in
>   
>[25]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
>   ion03]
>
>[NEW] ACTION: Virginie to lead work on action plan for Security
>   of Web
>apps [recorded in
> 
>[26]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
>   ion04]
>
>
>[End of minutes]
>
>
>
>
>
>

Received on Wednesday, 1 May 2013 09:35:44 UTC