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[minutes] Thursday 21 February 2008 Teleconf

From: Francois Daoust <fd@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 17:59:20 +0100
Message-ID: <47BDADE8.1020003@w3.org>
To: public-bpwg@w3.org

The minutes for today's call are available at:

... and copied as text below.

I'll send a separate note, but remember to complete the questionnaires 
for next F2Fs ASAP (and even before!):
- Zaragoza:
- Seoul (mandatory for everyone even if you don't intend to go):


21 Feb 2008


       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Feb/0099.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-irc


           Bryan, Chaals, DKA, DRooks, EdM, Francois, Jo, Kai, Magnus,
           MartinJ, Miguel, SeanOwen, SeanP, Shah, Tony, Yeliz

           murari, AdamC, AlanTai, Aaron, rob, nacho, PhilA, hgerlach




      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]New members
          2. [6]TaskForce reports
          3. [7]Content Transformation
          4. [8]MobileOK Pro TF
          5. [9]Checker TF
          6. [10]Korea F2F
          7. [11]Agenda discussion
          8. [12]Accessibility Document
          9. [13]Zaragoza F2F
         10. [14]Accessibility (again)
         11. [15]mobileOK Pro Task Force report
         12. [16]BP2
         13. [17]Zaragoza F2F again
      * [18]Summary of Action Items

New members

    DKA: Jeff Sonstein from ...

    JS: I teach stuff. I talked about One Web and as penance I have to
    be here (or something like that)

    DKA: Tony, ByteMobile

    Tony Johansson: work in engineering, putting internet on mobiles.

    DKA: Do you see ByteMobile using best practices to present content
    to devices?

    TJ: Yes.....

TaskForce reports

Content Transformation

    FD: Hope we can now work on practical stuff and not administrivia.
    Goal is to rework the current draft and present to the WG next week.

    DKA: Could we review document before next week's call?

    FD: In an ideal case. It will be short...

    <Zakim> jo, you wanted to note that I have a FPWD of DDWG API to do
    by next week too ...

    JR: I wanted to note that I have a FPWD of DDWG API to do by next
    week too ... so getting out a draft by Tuesday means I will ahve to
    actualy work all night and over the weekend too...
    ... and more to the point that the format may not be totally perfect
    as per my usual standards by then

MobileOK Pro TF

    JR: I was lurking. Sounds like there is work going on. There is a
    regular telecon, a mailing list, and a promising discussion of a
    number of substantive issues.

    DKA: That's my impression too.

Checker TF

    DKA: Checker went Beta.

    SO: No comments yet since we released - and I haven't had time since
    then, although there is outstanding work to do

    DKA: Was demoed at W3C stand, Mobile World Congress in Barcelona.

    FD: Wish there was feedback...
    ... we had some hassles setting up our web interface stuff for demos
    (The Demonstrator Gods strike again!!)
    ... most sites checked were not mobileOK, except sevenVal which came
    back OK.

    <DKA> 7val's wikipedia site at wikipedia.7val.com

    FD: so only one t-shirt given away

    DKA: There was a useful wikipedia production site...
    ... not just passing teh checker but also received no warnings.
    ... they can also take advantage of advanced capabilities, e.g. to
    use javascript where available

    <yeliz> can't access this site [19]http://weblog.200ok.org.au

      [19] http://weblog.200ok.org.au/

Korea F2F

    DKA: There is a registration form - please fill it in.

    <francois> [20]Seoul F2F registration

      [20] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/seoulf2f/

    DKA: You need to fill out the registration if you are interested in
    coming. I am exceited about the mobile wednesday thing

    <francois> [Note the questionnaire is mandatory even if one doesn't
    plan to go there]

    DKA: and should help to stimulate dialogue, etc.

    s/can't access this site [21]http://weblog.200ok.org.au//

      [21] http://weblog.200ok.org.au//

Agenda discussion

    JR: Dan, you haven't actually structured anything yet?

    DKA: No, although I saw you had done a lot of great work, I didn't
    get around to following up yet

    <jo> ACTION: Dan to draft an agenda for the Korea F2F by tomorrow
    [recorded in

    <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-662 - Draft an agenda for the Korea F2F
    by tomorrow [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2008-02-28].

    <yeliz> /me

    DKA: My preference is to talk about meaty issues, in particular BP 2
    and filling it out with actual stuff. That requires people to come
    prepared with teh top 5 things they want to see

    s/I can access that URL now, thanks \/me//

    <jo> s/\/me//

    BS: I have put a bunch of stuff together...

    DKA: Hopefully we will have enough to issue a FPWD
    ... and we are filling out stuff for MobileOK Pro

    JR: There are some pretty solid issues around Content
    Transformation. So we expect some unanswered questions that it would
    be good to discuss - https, UA strings, etc...

Accessibility Document

    AC: zakim, who is making noise?



Zaragoza F2F

    DKA: Cannot attend the suggested date 9-13. Think that means we
    should change it.

    <jo> [24]Pop Ups


    JR: Sounds like an excellent time to hold it to me

    <edm> Please see Nacho's e-mail re Zaragoza f2f -

      [25] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-bpwg/2008Feb/0074.html

    JR: The poll is only accessible to DDWG - and we can't fix that
    until Monday. meanwhile, we have to make up our minds in a big

    <jo> [26]Zaragoza Poll

      [26] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37583/Zaragoza-f2f/

    DKA: Looks like 16-20 is the preferred alternate for DDWG

    <edm> ... but as Nacho points out all we have for now is what we
    have now is a pre-reservation for the week of June 9-13 ...

    We could send an email poll toget at least an idae before Monday

    FD: We could set up a secon poll for this group

    <scribe> ACTION: Francois to set up a poll for BPWG due in one hour
    [recorded in

    <scribe> ACTION: Francois set up a poll for BPWG due in one hour
    [recorded in

    <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Francois

    <francois> ACTION: Daoust set up a poll for BPWG due in one hour
    [recorded in

    <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-663 - Set up a poll for BPWG due in one
    hour [on Fran├žois Daoust - due 2008-02-28].

    <achuter> jo said in minutes last week "resume doc review at POP_UPs
    next time]"

    FD after the call: See [30]the end of the minutes for the duplicated
    questionnaire's URI.

Accessibility (again)

    <jo> [31]Pop Ups


    JR: We got to Pop-ups last time, let's resume from there

    AC: Pop-ups are a problem for people who are not seeing the whole
    screen, or not sure what is going on and end up closing the whole
    browser instead of just spare windows

    JR: Think this is fine

    CMN: agrees

    BS: So pop-ups should not be used?

    AC: You need to tell the user if you are going to open a popup
    ... following the mobile BP means not using them, and tra-la
    ... It is probably difficult for this group to comment on WCAG since
    almost nobody knows it here...

    DKA: There is no WCAG statement for "provide defaults"?

    [I agree that this is a WCAG problem. There was something related in
    WCAG 1, but ...]

    JR: Since it is not clearly testable, it is not in WCAG. In most
    cases we find that Mobile BP helps accessibility even when it makes
    no difference to WCAG 2 compliance (the story is different for WCAG
    ... we should limit our comments to things that are unclear or

    AC: REDIRECTIONS - confuses people because they don't there has been
    a redirect, or because they have not been able to read what was
    there before it changed

    CMN: Thinks this is fine


    CMN: This one is fine

    AC: users with reading difficulties can have trouble scrolling
    around and staying oriented. multiple-direction scroll increases the
    load on people with limited input capability

    [it also helps disorient people using serious zoom without

    JR: Structure - this gives you WCAG compliance. But this isn't
    intended only to cover heading structure in BP. Seems good to me.

    DKA: Could we mark out the practices that do contribute to
    compliance with an icon?




    AC: The link shows the correspondence...

    JR: Style sheets...

    <jo> Scribe: Jo

    <scribe> scribenick: jo

    AC: this helps people who don't see the effects of style sheets etc.

    <yeliz> yeliz, unmute me

    dka: that cover sytle sheets use too?

    ac: no but the benefits are similar

    yeliz: might be useful to detail how this helps

    dka: that level of detail could get us into trouble

    ac: it would be nice to give example but would be a lot of work

    yeliz: in some cases you do give some examples so might be an idea
    to do so here

    dka: yeliz do you want to contribute some examples

    <jeffs> perhaps RIT can find a way to be helpful with
    building/testing examples

    <scribe> ACTION: Yeliz to provide some examples to put into the
    document - specifically on STYLE_SHEET_SUPPORT [recorded in

    <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-664 - Provide some examples to put into
    the document - specifically on STYLE_SHEET_SUPPORT [on Yeliz
    Yesilada - due 2008-02-28].

    jeffs: we can talk offline on what we can supply by way of examples

    <yeliz> yeliz, mute me


    <scribe> ACTION: chuter to talk to Jeffs about what support they can
    provide on examples [recorded in

    <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-665 - Talk to Jeffs about what support
    they can provide on examples [on Alan Chuter - due 2008-02-28].

    dka: I have a problem with nomenclature - possibly covered,
    partially covered and possibly/partially covered

    ac: it is intentional but may not be correct

    dka: think that will be confusing to readers

    ac: partially is about scope possibly is about whether it will or

    <yeliz> I think it would be good to define them

    ac: think they should be defined somewhere

    dka: why don't you put in a pra in the intro to define that

    jo: resume from TAB_ORDER next time

    bryan: we need to think about whether they make sense for mobility
    ... e.g. pop ups will be in line and other that will be conflicting

    jo: yes this will be of importance when we are looking at WCAG to BP

    ac: my comment was about whether mobile devices do actually support
    switching of style sheet

    <chaals> [Yes Alan, at least some do

    <Zakim> Kai, you wanted to ask about mobileOK Pro report

mobileOK Pro Task Force report

    <Kai> Kai: Here is some more information, for your perusal, from the
    mail I had sent to the list..

    <Kai> - The tests have been reworked by the TF

    <Kai> - I am currently in the process of casting the document into
    an editor's draft

    <Kai> - Due to eskalations here at work I am unable to deliver the
    first draft today.

    <Kai> Hopefully by early next week I will be able to do so.

    <Kai> - Charter has been amended and submitted to WG for approval

    <Kai> - Website for TF has been created

    <Kai> - Access for me as Editor and Author is being dealt with by
    Francois (I would appreciate some information to progress)

    <Kai> - Telco has been created and the first one held yesterday

    <Kai> Open points:

    <Kai> There is a F2F meeting March 19th at the Vodafone Offices at
    80 Strand, London Begin 9 am End ca. 4-6 pm


    <chaals> s/AC: Yes/[Yes Alan/

    Bryan: I sent out a number of firestarter emails on the sections
    that are in the requirements doc
    ... a number of responses and some specific suggestions
    ... I will get these into a draft
    ... for Seoul, have we got the scope right?

    dka: I was hoping we could have discussion on scope
    ... on this call to help refine the scope
    ... Jo posted on ACTION-660 Reprise

    <francois> ScribeNick: francois

    DKA: my intention is to get to a resolution re the scope of the BP2

    Jo: One of the things that strikes me is that we don't have in the
    document a clear definition of what a web application is and what it
    ... we did discuss that in Boston
    ... about the browser sandbox or not
    ... I think we should take some time to define precisely a web

    Bryan: there is a scope section which does define, based on November
    talks, a web application

    <Kai> I like it

    <Bryan> BP2 extends the focus to Web applications generally, which
    means an application that is accessed and presented via Web

    <srowen> I think it can be sharpened to mention HTTP, an (X)HTML

    <DKA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: A "Mobile Web Application" shall be
    defined as an application that runs inside the browser on a mobile
    device. Such applications often make use of scripting, CSS, and Dom

    <jo> [35]2 Scope


    Jo: is Chatzilla a mobile web application?

    DKA: yes

    <srowen> agree that we do not need to talk about "browser", since
    our focus is the content and server side. But we can be more
    specific in mentioning HTTP, XHTML, CSS, Javascript

    Bryan: when you say "inside the browser"... Browser technologies in
    general are used outside the browser

    DKA: Joost is a good example of a desktop web application
    ... but I think that's out of scope

    Jo: I do not think this is a sufficient categorization
    ... I don't think it's a sharp enough definition

    <Kai> From Wikipedia: In software engineering, a Web application or
    webapp is an application that is accessed via Web over a network
    such as the Internet or an intranet.

    <Kai> It has been suggested that Browser application be merged into
    this article or section.

    <srowen> How about this: A Mobile Web application is an application
    primarily intended for usage by mobile devices rather than desktop
    devices, using HTML or XHTML delivered over HTTP, and typically
    employing CSS and scripting such as Javascript.

    Jeff: originally in the browser context but now not in the browser
    context anymore

    <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: WE should define a specific set of
    criteria that need to be fulfilled to be a Mobile Web Application

    <jeffs> agree w srowen suggestion above

    Sean: I think we need to make clear we're targetting xml over HTTP,
    mobile devices, and scripting

    <srowen> Dan -- you mentioned the browser, which I don't think is
    necessary (per Messr. Sullivan), and didn't mention HTTP or HTML,
    which seems vital

    <chaals> [I don't see that w should be targetting things
    specifically for mobile devices rather than web, just things that
    are designed to work well for mobile devices as part of teh web]

    <Kai> [I agree with Chaals. Where is One Web?]

    Bryan: we should separate web applications and content type

    <srowen> what on earth are we going to talk about that *isn't*
    related to HTTP and HTML

    Bryan: I would not limit the BP to XML, XHTML, HTML
    ... we should not limit our scope to them

    <jo> Actionscript ...

    <srowen> give me an example of a legitimate existing practice
    related to advanced mobile devices that does not relate to the
    technologies listed so far

    DKA: we should focus on existing web technologies

    <srowen> if we can't, then I don't see what the problem is with
    being specific and clear about what we are, in reality, talking
    about anyway

    +1 to srowen remarks

    <edm> how about sticking to what is enabled by the existing
    technologies - including specifically XHTML/HTML, CSS, DOM,
    ECMAscript, AJAX, SVG?

    Jo: I think we're going to end up in circles if we don't come up
    with something precise

    <DKA> I'm back

    DKA: we should build on the Web as a platform

    Jo: That would seem to encompass Java applets

    <edm> +1 to focusing on the web as a platform - and perhaps browsers
    as application containers?

    <Zakim> jo, you wanted to mention SVG, XML, the use of XMLHTTP

    DKA: it should be about using web technologies without plugins

    Bryan: In general, regardless of where the application runs, if it
    operates as a browser, then it is a browser, and is under the scope
    ... The applications that use HTTP as a transport and windows fall
    in the scope.

    <srowen> Agree, don't care whether we're talking about user agents
    based on MIDP or Symbian or ham sandwiches. But we seem to be
    talking about HTML/CSS/HTTP user agents, so let's say that much.
    Don't say "browser" if you don't want, I agree that is not

    Bryan: We're really talking about user experience
    ... of web applications
    ... that's the charter I believe



    <Zakim> Kai, you wanted to say that web applications include
    services that are exposed via web technologies. If they are intended
    for mobile usage they are game

    Kai: web applications are something that offer a service.
    ... I like Bryan's initial definition
    ... I don't find it too general

    <Zakim> jo, you wanted to say the plugin definition excludes SVG and
    a bunch of other stuff that we would want to include and to wonder
    if we are talking about applications that are based

    <srowen> Final remark: let's start by listing out best practices. I
    posted 5-6 to the list. At the end of the day, if we find that the
    real, good practices we can mention concern only HTTP/HTML/etc. then
    we can comfortably state that *that* is what we are talking about.
    Sure, let's not decide that a priori if that is unpalatable.

    Jo: I'm wondering whether we're talking about applications that are
    using the DOM

    DKA: that makes sense
    ... is there a W3C definition that we could use?
    ... Let's have the topic back in next week's call

    <Zakim> francois, you wanted to talk about Zaragoza questionnaire
    once you're done Dan

    DKA: I will create an issue and then we can discuss it on the

Zaragoza F2F again

    -> [37]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/BPWGDDWGF2FZARAGOZA/
    Zaragoza F2F

      [37] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/BPWGDDWGF2FZARAGOZA/

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: chuter to talk to Jeffs about what support they can
    provide on examples [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Dan to draft an agenda for the Korea F2F by tomorrow
    [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Daoust set up a poll for BPWG due in one hour
    [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Francois set up a poll for BPWG due in one hour
    [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Francois to set up a poll for BPWG due in one hour
    [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Yeliz to provide some examples to put into the
    document - specifically on STYLE_SHEET_SUPPORT [recorded in

    [End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 21 February 2008 16:59:24 UTC

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