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[minutes] [for tracking purposes] F2F mobileOK Pro - day 2 - 6 February 2008

From: Francois Daoust <fd@w3.org>
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 14:36:33 +0100
Message-ID: <47AC5AE1.2080807@w3.org>
To: public-bpwg@w3.org

Same apologies... meant for 'bots'.

The minutes of the mobileOK Pro F2F, day 2:
http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html
... and the text version below.

François.


06 Feb 2008

    See also: [2]IRC log

       [2] http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-irc

Attendees

    Present
           KaiS, AdamC, DanA, drooks, AlanC, PhilA

    Regrets
    Chair
           Kai

    Scribe
           PhilA, drooks, achuter, adam

Contents

      * [3]Topics
          1. [4][DEFICIENCIES]
             http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#iddiv3126671896
          2. [5][ERROR MESSAGES]
             http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#iddiv3126765624
          3. [6][FONTS] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#fonts
          4. [7][GRAPHICS_FOR_SPACING]
             http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#GRAPHICS_FOR_SPACING
          5. [8][LIMITED] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#LIMITED
          6. [9][LINK_TARGET_ID]
          7. [10]TABLES_SUPPORT
          8. [11]TESTING
          9. [12]URIs
         10. [13]AOB
      * [14]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

[DEFICIENCIES] [15]http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#iddiv3126671896

      [15] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#iddiv3126671896

    <PhilA> Discussion about the desirability of sanctioning 'bad code'

    <PhilA> Chair; Kai

    <PhilA> scribeNick: PhilA

    DKA: Can we model some fake UA strings that are associated with a
    typical kind of deficiency?
    ... that could be documented and then used to test to work around
    the deficiency

    Kai: Then you're testing for specific deficiencies
    ... We need to look at common deficiencies

    DKA: That's what I mean - class of deficiency
    ... CSS causes problems, table support
    ... We should focus on devices that say they support, say WAP 2 and
    actually don't. I can find out what they are

    Kai: Can we say that the content provider can take reasonable steps
    to accommodate common deficiencies.
    ... Meaning that if they have thought about it they may get an A for
    Effort

    Adam: So if you're using technologies that you know aren't fully
    supported then you should work harder

    Kai: It's about demonstrating that you are working around
    deficiencies that yuo know about - without specifying what those
    deficiencies are

    Test is drafted and examples given

    Further discussion about what the BP means. e.g. it does not mean
    pixel-perfect across all devices. It's about usability and
    intelligibility

    <scribe> ACTION: Daniel to seek examples of common deficiencies that
    should be worked around [recorded in
    [16]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot-ng> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) -
    Daniel

    <trackbot-ng> Try using a different identifier, such as family name
    or username (eg. dappelqu, dschutz)

    <scribe> ACTION: Appelquistl to seek examples of common deficiencies
    that should be worked around [recorded in
    [17]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Appelquistl

    <scribe> ACTION: Appelquist to seek examples of common deficiencies
    that should be worked around [recorded in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-645 - Seek examples of common
    deficiencies that should be worked around [on Daniel Appelquist -
    due 2008-02-13].

[ERROR MESSAGES] [19]http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#iddiv3126765624

      [19] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#iddiv3126765624

    Discussion about what to test and what to expect. The BP doc is
    atypically verbose on this!

    Tests for the Retry, Home and Back link; then test that error
    message is in the expected language

    <DKA> Some info on deficiencies:

    <DKA> - different devices adding preset margins and padding. eg to
    get a page he full width of the screen we need to use -2px on a
    width setting because the device automatically adds a 2px margin

    <DKA> - poor implementation of background css (colours and images)
    while most devices support the functionality many support it poorly.
    the main problem is that the backgrounds disappear or breakup on
    scrolling

    <DKA> - for a particular device: Scrolling the page, the [white]
    text over category header bkg [coloured background] disappears (the
    white text is still there, but the bkg color disappear

    <DKA> - lack of proper <div> support. with many devices we have to
    resort to tables to layout content because divs do not work. This
    has various reasons (eg it is impossible to remove automatically
    added padding)

    <DKA> - cascading: many devices don't support the full cascading of
    css selcters down the tree. This mans we have to add styles at all
    levels on a device

    <DKA> - most CSS is supported it's just how it is supported that is
    the issue. Normally most CSS 1 is supported, but the implementation
    means that we can't use it.

    <DKA> (from Vodafone Live! team dealing with rendering issues)

    Discussion around error messages continued.

    Does a server pass on to an error page/handling URI the context of
    the error, eg language? i.e. are we asking too much? Recorded as an
    issue

[FONTS] [20]http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#fonts

      [20] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#fonts

    The BP says don't rely on it... and then it says under how to do it,
    don't do it for the DDC. This is a mismatch

[GRAPHICS_FOR_SPACING]
[21]http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#GRAPHICS_FOR_SPACING

      [21] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#GRAPHICS_FOR_SPACING

    There is a partial and constrained test in Basic. The Human test is
    actually much simpler

    Kai: Does anyone think that we're going through these too quickly?

    Discussion about what we're doing - feeling is that we'll create the
    draft doc which can then be the basis for more in depth debate

    As an aside, DKA reports the release of the OMA browser with support
    for XHTML Basic 1.1 which is important for the transition of the BP
    doc to Rec

[LIMITED] [22]http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#LIMITED

      [22] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#LIMITED

    Discussion about what this BP means

    Lengthy texts without pagination and so on is unlikely to be MOK

    Basically, is the content 'designed' for mobile?

    <drooks> scribenick drooks

    <drooks> scribenick: drooks

    drooks: there is a fine line between [limited] and [central meaning]

    discussion centers around trying to distinguish between the 2 BPs

    group is conscious not to target advertising as a bad thing

    group descides to bundle [LIMITED] as [CENTRAL MEANING] as
    difference between the 2 can not be determined

    <PhilA> Topic [LINK TARGET ID]
    [23]http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#iddiv3126683960

      [23] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#iddiv3126683960

[LINK_TARGET_ID]

    achuter: explains why using 'click here' and 'more' link text is bad
    for screen reader users

    group leaves 'click here' and 'more' links as open issue

    Topic [MINIMIZE KEY STROKES]
    [24]http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#MINIMIZE_KEYSTROKES

      [24] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#MINIMIZE_KEYSTROKES

    group decides that this test is already covered by [CENTRAL
    MEANING], [AVOID FREE TEXT], [URIs] and [PROVIDE DEFAULTS]

    Topic [NAV BAR] [25]http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#NAVBAR

      [25] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#NAVBAR

    group limits test to checking for top page nav bar only has 1 line

    Topic [NAVIGATION] [26]http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#NAVIGATION

      [26] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#NAVIGATION

    quick resolution made on test case for this BP

    Topic [NON-TEXT_ALTERNATIVES]
    [27]http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#NON-TEXT_ALTERNATIVES

      [27] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#NON-TEXT_ALTERNATIVES

    <achuter> [28]http://www.wabcluster.org/uwem/tests/#guideline-1

      [28] http://www.wabcluster.org/uwem/tests/#guideline-1

    group discusses decorative vs informative images

    its quite a lengthy discussion

    Topic [OBJECTS OR SCRIPTS]
    [29]http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#OBJECTS_OR_SCRIPT

      [29] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#OBJECTS_OR_SCRIPT

    brief pause to discuss ongoing actions as Phil has to leave shortly

    everyone is going to take 6 tests to review / simplify / enhance

    Kai now outlines timeline

    RESOLUTION: charter will be delivered by 21-02-08

    RESOLUION: first draft of reworked tests will be delivered by
    21-02-08

    RESOLUTION: next f2f will be on 19-03-08 in London
    ... group aims to go to LC by 08-05-08
    ... LC comments will be addressed in June
    ... group aims to go to CR by end of June

    lunch

    Topic [OBJECTS_OR_SCRIPT]
    [30]http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#OBJECTS_OR_SCRIPT

      [30] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#OBJECTS_OR_SCRIPT

    resolution quickly reached

    Topic [PAGE_SIZE_USABLE]
    [31]http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#PAGE_SIZE_USABLE

      [31] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#PAGE_SIZE_USABLE

    short discussion about PAGE_SIZE_LIMIT vs PAGE_SIZE_USABLE

    agreement on test cases reached

    Topic [PAGE_TITLE] [32]http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#PAGE_TITLE

      [32] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#PAGE_TITLE

    another agreement quickly reached

    Topic [PROVIDE_DEFAULTS]
    [33]http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#PROVIDE_DEFAULTS

      [33] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#PROVIDE_DEFAULTS

    group takea a quick look at the existing basic test

    and discuss checkboxes

    tests are eventually agreed on

    Topic [SCROLLING] [34]http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#SCROLLING

      [34] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#SCROLLING

    Topic [STRUCTURE] [35]http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#STRUCTURE

      [35] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#STRUCTURE

    short discussion about heading markup

    and what qualifies as structural markup

    <Kai> test

    Topic [STYLE_SHEETS_USE]
    [36]http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#STYLE_SHEETS_USE

      [36] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#STYLE_SHEETS_USE

    Topic [STYLE_SHEETS_SIZE]
    [37]http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#STYLE_SHEETS_SIZE

      [37] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#STYLE_SHEETS_SIZE

    long discussion about how to deal with this BP

    should we check if any declared style elements are not used within
    the site - tough human test

    should we check if the CSS is a certain % of the main page content -
    too restrictive

    group comes up with a few tests that can be run

    Topic [STYLE_SHEETS_SUPPORT]
    [38]http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#STYLE_SHEETS_SUPPORT

      [38] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#STYLE_SHEETS_SUPPORT

    <achuter> scribenick: achuter

    topic STYLESHEETS_USE

    topic SUITABLE

    adam: This is the weirdest BP of all.

    <scribe> ACTION: On DKA write mor examples of suitable BP. [recorded
    in [39]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - On

    <scribe> ACTION: DKA write mor examples of suitable BP. [recorded in
    [40]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action05]

    <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - DKA

    <scribe> ACTION: Dan write more examples of suitable BP. [recorded
    in [41]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action06]

    <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-646 - Write more examples of suitable
    BP. [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2008-02-13].

    Adam: Need to check tab order regardless of whether tabindex has
    been used.

    topic TABLES_LAYOUT

    Kai: CSS isn't suitable for everything, like cell grid layout.

    Dan: We don't want to go back and revisit the BP document.

    <adam> ScribeNick: adam

    Dan: MobileOK Basic test returns a warn for certain formats of
    table, the Pro test could be additive to that.

    Discussion on why tables are bad (don't capture semantics of page)
    and trying to define examples to flesh out the test.

TABLES_SUPPORT

TESTING

    Kai: That they are running through this document implies that have
    fulfilled this BP.

    Adam: Can we group TESTING statement with DEFICIENCIES or
    CAPABILITIES

    Kai: Content-provider decides to create MOK Pro site, he has to get
    somebody to test with devices in order to do that, so the test is
    essentially a check-point that this has happened.

    Alan: Just testing doesn't mean they've done anything about it.
    ... If a content-provider hands off to a testing company to get
    MobileOK Pro they will only have the content-provider's word that
    they really have done appropriate testing.

    Kai: Open issue noted.

URIs

    Kai: What constitutes short enough? We need to bracket this test
    somehow.

    Discussion on whether a limit should also consider the domain name,
    or just the path.

    <achuter> [42]http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI

      [42] http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI

    <Kai> Kai to create a response to the concerns of the WG

AOB

    <Kai> ACTION: Kai to create a response to the concerns of the WG
    [recorded in
    [43]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action07]

    <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-647 - Create a response to the concerns
    of the WG [on Kai Scheppe - due 2008-02-13].

    <Kai> ACTION: Kai to update the charter document based on output of
    F2F [recorded in
    [44]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action08]

    <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-648 - Update the charter document based
    on output of F2F [on Kai Scheppe - due 2008-02-13].

    <Kai> ACTION: Kai to create a telco for the TF on a weekly basis
    [recorded in
    [45]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action09]

    <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-649 - Create a telco for the TF on a
    weekly basis [on Kai Scheppe - due 2008-02-13].

    <Kai> ACTION: phil to rework tests 1-7 [recorded in
    [46]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action10]

    <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-650 - Rework tests 1-7 [on Phil Archer
    - due 2008-02-13].

    <Kai> ACTION: Adam to rework tests 8-14 [recorded in
    [47]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action11]

    <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-651 - Rework tests 8-14 [on Adam
    Connors - due 2008-02-13].

    <Kai> ACTION: Alan to rework tests 15-22 [recorded in
    [48]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action12]

    <trackbot-ng> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) -
    Alan

    <trackbot-ng> Try using a different identifier, such as family name
    or username (eg. achuter, atai)

    <Kai> ACTION: aChuter to rework tests 15-22 [recorded in
    [49]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action13]

    <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-652 - Rework tests 15-22 [on Alan
    Chuter - due 2008-02-13].

    <Kai> ACTION: Dan to rework tests 23-30 [recorded in
    [50]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action14]

    <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-653 - Rework tests 23-30 [on Daniel
    Appelquist - due 2008-02-13].

    <Kai> ACTION: Dave to rework tests 31-37 [recorded in
    [51]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action15]

    <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-654 - Rework tests 31-37 [on Dave
    Roberts - due 2008-02-13].

    <Kai> Close action-654

    <trackbot-ng> ACTION-654 Rework tests 31-37 closed

    <Kai> ACTION: Rooks to rework tests 31-37 [recorded in
    [52]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action16]

    <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-655 - Rework tests 31-37 [on David
    Rooks - due 2008-02-13].

    <Kai> ACTION: Rooks to analyse basic tests for tests pro needs to do
    [recorded in
    [53]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action17]

    <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-656 - Analyse basic tests for tests pro
    needs to do [on David Rooks - due 2008-02-13].

    rssagent, generate minutes

    rssagent generate minutes

    rssagent, generate minutes

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: aChuter to rework tests 15-22 [recorded in
    [54]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action13]
    [NEW] ACTION: Adam to rework tests 8-14 [recorded in
    [55]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action11]
    [NEW] ACTION: Alan to rework tests 15-22 [recorded in
    [56]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action12]
    [NEW] ACTION: Appelquist to seek examples of common deficiencies
    that should be worked around [recorded in
    [57]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: Appelquistl to seek examples of common deficiencies
    that should be worked around [recorded in
    [58]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: Dan to rework tests 23-30 [recorded in
    [59]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action14]
    [NEW] ACTION: Dan write more examples of suitable BP. [recorded in
    [60]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action06]
    [NEW] ACTION: Daniel to seek examples of common deficiencies that
    should be worked around [recorded in
    [61]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: Dave to rework tests 31-37 [recorded in
    [62]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action15]
    [NEW] ACTION: DKA write mor examples of suitable BP. [recorded in
    [63]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action05]
    [NEW] ACTION: Kai to create a response to the concerns of the WG
    [recorded in
    [64]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action07]
    [NEW] ACTION: Kai to create a telco for the TF on a weekly basis
    [recorded in
    [65]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action09]
    [NEW] ACTION: Kai to update the charter document based on output of
    F2F [recorded in
    [66]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action08]
    [NEW] ACTION: On DKA write mor examples of suitable BP. [recorded in
    [67]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: phil to rework tests 1-7 [recorded in
    [68]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action10]
    [NEW] ACTION: Rooks to analyse basic tests for tests pro needs to do
    [recorded in
    [69]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action17]
    [NEW] ACTION: Rooks to rework tests 31-37 [recorded in
    [70]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action16]

    [End of minutes]
Received on Friday, 8 February 2008 13:36:48 UTC

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