RE: URLs and access issues

I don't think the user needs to choose from a URL or make a decision as
to what content they wish to see.  The whole idea of the MWI is for the
content to render according to the device used. 
 
Kind regards,
Paul
 
-----Original Message-----
From: public-bpwg-request@w3.org [mailto:public-bpwg-request@w3.org] On
Behalf Of marcus saw
Sent: 12 August 2005 16:06
To: Tim Moss; public-bpwg@w3.org
Cc: Ray Anderson
Subject: RE: URLs and access issues
 
Thanks Tim, 
 
I am not advocating that this is the best approach, Sometimes users may
not want to be re-directed to specific content, they may ecially not if
they may be using one of the 'full browser' applications on their phone.
 
Also you are right, the re-directing based on UserAgents scripts are out
of the reach of most content creators and from the sounds of it would be
expensive ( having to buy a DB of user agents ).
 
I like the idea of the user choosing their content when they reach the
site, however, would they first see the full site and pay for all the
packets of data they download as a result, or would they first see a cut
down mobile site and maybe get disapointed at the lack of content, or
perhaps a screen with just the two choices on ?
 
 
Marcus
http://cellsuite.blogspot.com
 


Tim Moss <Tim@bango.com> wrote:
Marcus,
 
I'll reply on Ray's behalf - I hope he won't mind!
 
I can understand that his email "twinged your geek pride" (!), but that
is part of the point Ray is making:
 
You need to be a bit of a geek in order to be able to create a site on
one URL that can handle i-mode phones and PC browsers.
OK it is not rocket science in the grand scheme of things, but even this
is beyond the abilities of many, and still requires that a 'database'
(of some description) of i-mode user agents needs to be employed and
maintained.
 
In Japan you are 'lucky' that DoCoMo has such a monopoly and always
identifies its devices sensibly via the user-agent.
This isn't the case here in Europe, and of course doesn't deal with
visitors, tourists, travellers etc. who would be using their non-DoCoMo
devices.
 
So for many, using two URLs is just technically easier (not better!).
 
As you say, in Japan it may now also serve as a way to help manage the
user's expectations of what they will see when they get to the site.
 
In my view this is better done on the site itself (e.g. user chooses
"Show me the web/mobile version") rather than by having to use different
URLs.
 
If you were to write down or bookmark the 'wrong' URL, or pass it on to
a friend for example, without the feature above, then there's no easy
way to get to other versions of the site.
 
 
 
Tim Moss
CTO
Bango
 
e: tim@bango.com
m: +44 78 8779 4032
w: http://www.bango.com <http://www.bango.com/> 
 
  
Mobile Content World 2005 
******************************************************************
"Come and see us on stand 14 at MCW 2005
Olympia Conference Centre, London, UK
13th - 15th September 2005"
www.mobilecontentworld.biz <http://www.mobilecontentworld.biz/>  
 
 

  _____  

From: marcus saw [mailto:saw_marcus@yahoo.com] 
Sent: 12 August 2005 02:23
To: Tim Moss; public-bpwg@w3.org
Subject: RE: URLs and access issues
Hi,
 
I have never had any trouble distinguishing an i-mode phone using the
UserAgent - they all contain the string 'Docomo' in them so they are
actualy the easiest to distinguish, the ones that do give me trouble
sometimes are the HDML / XHTML versions of ezweb from AU / tu-ka.
 
I have a keitai Database of all the useragents released in japan and it
goes back a few years and Docomo have always had the 'Docomo' string in
the useragent, even back to their PHS days so realy they are Easy peasy
:D
 
The situation might be different with i-mode outside of Japan but I have
managed several marketing campaigns here and gone that extra step to
just provide a single URL for access and made scripts to detect the
UserAgent and redirect to 1 of 4 sites : PC, chtml, hdml, xhtml, jhtml.
The scripts worked fine and still do :D
 
So now the situation is as I outlined before, the two URLs are purely
used to show different versions of content depending on which medium you
use to view.  The Japanese do have a very distinct flavour of what they
expect from their mobile internet sites and it is very different from
what they expect on their PC.
 
I was not advocating that this is the best way forward, just telling
whats happening now so we can form a better oppinion as to how to steer
the development.
 
Apologies for arguing but you twinged my geek-pride :D
 
Kind regards,
Marcus.
 
http://cellsuite.blogspot.com <http://cellsuite.blogspot.com/> 
 
 
 
 


Tim Moss <Tim@bango.com> wrote:
This missed the list for some reason - investigating.

  _____  

From: Ray Anderson [mailto:ray@bango.net] 
Sent: 10 August 2005 21:49
To: marcus saw; Nicolas Combelles; public-bpwg@w3.org
Cc: Tim Moss
Subject: RE: URLs and access issues
Actually, the reason that Japanese advertisers have to publish 2 URL's
on posters is due to a flaw/feature in the original spec / design of
iMode

Since i-mode accept-type (sent by the browser) was simply text/html, it
was extremely tricky to distinguish from "big browsers" that also use
text/html.  To provide one site that supported iMode phones and browsers
required some pretty complex rules for these, based on User-Agent.  (WAP
as used by KDDI did not have that problem, but most phones were i-Mode).
Our expert  tells me the O2 iMode phones send through an O2 imode
identifier as part of the user agent.  But this can't be relied on
across the board.  And for the worst case, we just have to maintain a
device list and work from that.  Pretty messy.  Unfortunately the MIME
type is identical for chtml and html.  

On the other hand, the little "phone picture" you see near URL's is
indeed a clue to try it on you r mobile.  Thats what I'm suggesting we
encourage content providers to do with their sites, once they have set
them up to provide content for phones.

ray

At 03:05 10/08/2005, marcus saw wrote:


Just to give you an idea of how this problem is currently solved in
Japan. 
 
It is quite normal to see posters on the trains and metro system here in
Tokyo which display two URLS: one for the 'normal' website' and one,
usually with a small mobile phone logo next to it showing the URL for
the mobile site.  The most common form of mobile URL is to use a
'mobile' sub-directory for example: http://something.jp/m/ ,
sub-domains, eg: http://m.something.jp/ are less common.
 
There is already the definite distinction in Japan between 'website' and
'mobile phone site' and the public know what to expect from each type of
URL advertised. 
 

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