RE: URLs and access issues

Marcus,
 
I'll reply on Ray's behalf - I hope he won't mind!
 
I can understand that his email "twinged your geek pride" (!), but that
is part of the point Ray is making:
 
You need to be a bit of a geek in order to be able to create a site on
one URL that can handle i-mode phones and PC browsers.
OK it is not rocket science in the grand scheme of things, but even this
is beyond the abilities of many, and still requires that a 'database'
(of some description) of i-mode user agents needs to be employed and
maintained.
 
In Japan you are 'lucky' that DoCoMo has such a monopoly and always
identifies its devices sensibly via the user-agent.
This isn't the case here in Europe, and of course doesn't deal with
visitors, tourists, travellers etc. who would be using their non-DoCoMo
devices.
 
So for many, using two URLs is just technically easier (not better!).
 
As you say, in Japan it may now also serve as a way to help manage the
user's expectations of what they will see when they get to the site.
 
In my view this is better done on the site itself (e.g. user chooses
"Show me the web/mobile version") rather than by having to use different
URLs.
 
If you were to write down or bookmark the 'wrong' URL, or pass it on to
a friend for example, without the feature above, then there's no easy
way to get to other versions of the site.
 
 
 
Tim Moss
CTO
Bango
 
e: tim@bango.com
m: +44 78 8779 4032
w: http://www.bango.com <http://www.bango.com/> 
 
  
Mobile Content World 2005 
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________________________________

	From: marcus saw [mailto:saw_marcus@yahoo.com] 
	Sent: 12 August 2005 02:23
	To: Tim Moss; public-bpwg@w3.org
	Subject: RE: URLs and access issues
	
	
	Hi,
	 
	I have never had any trouble distinguishing an i-mode phone
using the UserAgent - they all contain the string 'Docomo' in them so
they are actualy the easiest to distinguish, the ones that do give me
trouble sometimes are the HDML / XHTML versions of ezweb from AU /
tu-ka.
	 
	I have a keitai Database of all the useragents released in japan
and it goes back a few years and Docomo have always had the 'Docomo'
string in the useragent, even back to their PHS days so realy they are
Easy peasy :D
	 
	The situation might be different with i-mode outside of Japan
but I have managed several marketing campaigns here and gone that extra
step to just provide a single URL for access and made scripts to detect
the UserAgent and redirect to 1 of 4 sites : PC, chtml, hdml, xhtml,
jhtml.  The scripts worked fine and still do :D
	 
	So now the situation is as I outlined before, the two URLs are
purely used to show different versions of content depending on which
medium you use to view.  The Japanese do have a very distinct flavour of
what they expect from their mobile internet sites and it is very
different from what they expect on their PC.
	 
	I was not advocating that this is the best way forward, just
telling whats happening now so we can form a better oppinion as to how
to steer the development.
	 
	Apologies for arguing but you twinged my geek-pride :D
	 
	Kind regards,
	Marcus.
	 
	http://cellsuite.blogspot.com
	 
	 
	 
	 


	Tim Moss <Tim@bango.com> wrote:

		This missed the list for some reason - investigating.
		

________________________________

			From: Ray Anderson [mailto:ray@bango.net] 
			Sent: 10 August 2005 21:49
			To: marcus saw; Nicolas Combelles;
public-bpwg@w3.org
			Cc: Tim Moss
			Subject: RE: URLs and access issues
			
			
			Actually, the reason that Japanese advertisers
have to publish 2 URL's on posters is due to a flaw/feature in the
original spec / design of iMode
			
			Since i-mode accept-type (sent by the browser)
was simply text/html, it was extremely tricky to distinguish from "big
browsers" that also use text/html.  To provide one site that supported
iMode phones and browsers required some pretty complex rules for these,
based on User-Agent.  (WAP as used by KDDI did not have that problem,
but most phones were i-Mode).  Our expert  tells me the O2 iMode phones
send through an O2 imode identifier as part of the user agent.  But this
can't be relied on across the board.  And for the worst case, we just
have to maintain a device list and work from that.  Pretty messy.
Unfortunately the MIME type is identical for chtml and html.  
			
			On the other hand, the little "phone picture"
you see near URL's is indeed a clue to try it on your mobile.  Thats
what I'm suggesting we encourage content providers to do with their
sites, once they have set them up to provide content for phones.
			
			ray
			
			At 03:05 10/08/2005, marcus saw wrote:
			

				Just to give you an idea of how this
problem is currently solved in Japan. 
				 
				It is quite normal to see posters on the
trains and metro system here in Tokyo which display two URLS: one for
the 'normal' website' and one, usually with a small mobile phone logo
next to it showing the URL for the mobile site.  The most common form of
mobile URL is to use a 'mobile' sub-directory for example:
http://something.jp/m/ , sub-domains, eg: http://m.something.jp/ are
less common.
				 
				There is already the definite
distinction in Japan between 'website' and 'mobile phone site' and the
public know what to expect from each type of URL advertised. 


	
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