- From: Francois Daoust <fd@w3.org>
- Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:13:15 +0100
- To: public-bpwg-ct <public-bpwg-ct@w3.org>
Minutes of today's call are available at:
http://www.w3.org/2008/03/11-bpwg-minutes.html
... and listed as text below.
Francois.
-----
11 Mar 2008
[2]Agenda
[2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Mar/0003.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/11-bpwg-irc
Attendees
Present
Francois, Jo, SeanP, AndrewS, Magnus, Heiko, Rob
Regrets
Bryan, MartinJ, Murari
Chair
francois
Scribe
Jo
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Introduction
2. [6]Aarons Contribution ACTION-666
* [7]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
Introduction
francois: [review of what happened at the F2F and pointer to
summary]
... jo proposed an editor's meeting ... I can host at Sofia (SE
France)
... who would be able to come?
... dates would be next week or the week after
<andrews> No, sorry
<SeanP> I don't think I'll be able to make it
jo: needs to be before Easter
francois: perhaps we can wait an extra week?
heiko: could we do it in the UK?
jo: need a host in the UK
... if noone else wants to attend then Francois and I can sort this
out between us
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Francois and Jo to roganise work as they see
fit and present group with final pre-FPWD
<andrews> +1 (and thank you)
<rob> +1
<francois> +1
RESOLUTION: Francois and Jo to roganise work as they see fit and
present group with final pre-FPWD
jo: the only bits that open to discuss in that context are the bits
after 3.1.4
... following resolution at F2F
Aarons Contribution ACTION-666
<francois> [8]Aaron's contribution
[8]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Mar/0000.html
francois: this is content for 2.5 control of the behavior of the
proxy
... goes in the same direction as we agreed to go
... maybe inconsistent with other things we say
... question is how should proxy indicate it could transform?
... if the content has not been modified then the proxy should
indicate that a transformed version is available
... how should this happen?
... I don't see how this can happen without transforming the page
magnus: there could be an insterstitial page
francois: yes, I suggested that but it would be a lousy user
experience
heiko: i think it should be only done once
seanP: you could insert a little link
francois: yes, I noted that in response to aaron, but that would
imply inconsistent behavior
seanP: one possiblity is some user agreement that it you wanted it
you could get it
francois: the list of options should contain this as an option that
the user can set
... sometimes you are looking at a page and you wish you could
transform it or not
... if the server issued a cache-control no-transform the link would
be missing
... the proxy MAY indicate that a transformed version is available
only where it decided not to transform
seanP: further on your point about having a link sometimes and
sometimes not might be confusing, I am not really sure that would be
a bad user experience
rob: there is the issue about confusion and there is also the
question about wanting to split the page and in those circumstances
the user might want to transform in this case
... so its worth saying you can switch it off and on but saying how
is probably out of scope
heiko: can we differentiate three things - leave things completley
untouched, second, just headers and footers
francois: we are trying to allow the server to have a "switch off"
and if we allow adding a link that is something to be avoided
... we could complete Aaron's text to say that this should not be
done to pages that can not be transformed
<francois> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: keep aaron's text as it is for 2.5.1
<francois> [9]current editor's text
[9]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/080227#sec-ServerResponse
jo: Don't think we should discuss adding a link to the unmodified
content to say that it could be modified
<Magnus> Transforming proxies SHOULD provide to their users an
indication that the content being viewed has been adapted for
<Magnus> mobile presentation. If the content has not been modified,
because of
<Magnus> server or user preferences, but transformation is possible
and
<Magnus> potentially useful, the proxy MAY indicate that a
transformed version
<Magnus> is available.
jo: that could appear later in the document - this section is an
overview
francois: take jo's point that whatever we resolve on the second bit
it could go later in the document
... magnus, would you leave out the bit on saying that the content
can be modified
magnus: my main problem is that the resolution can't be left as is,
as it has a number of comments
... I'd be happy with just taking the first sentence and then saying
that the original content can be retireved without saying how
exactly
... could also have the bit on sticky sessions
... I'm trying to look at this in the context of the document which
is an overview
... [discusses how it can be worded]
<francois> Transforming proxies MAY provide to their users:
<francois> - An indication that the content being viewed has been
adapted for
<francois> mobile presentation.
<francois> - An option to view the original, unmodified content.
<francois> - some "sticky" preferences to their users.
francois: this is to emphasize the point that this is just a
discussion
seanp: we have talked about providing a link to unmodified content -
what to do if the unmodified content crashes the phone?
francois: good point but does not remove the need for a link in the
generic case, the proxy could offer a warning
... in that case
<francois> Transforming proxies SHOULD provide to their users:
<francois> - An indication that the content being viewed has been
adapted for
<francois> mobile presentation.
<francois> - An option to view the original, unmodified content.
<francois> - some session settings to their users.
jo: I'd prefer to leave the normative wording even though this is
less of a prescriptive section, otherwise there's a danger that the
document may appear to contradict itself when it goes on to discuss
it later
... I think it's SHOULD on the first two and a MAY on the third
<francois> Transforming proxies SHOULD provide to their users:
<francois> - An indication that the content being viewed has been
adapted for
<francois> mobile presentation.
<francois> - An option to view the original, unmodified content.
<francois> They MAY also provide session settings to their users.
+1
<andrews> +1
<Magnus> +1
<scribe> ACTION: Jo to reword 2.5.1 along the lines proposed by
Francois [recorded in
[10]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/11-bpwg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-706 - Reword 2.5.1 along the lines
proposed by Francois [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-03-18].
<SeanP> +1
francois: additional qeustion, should we mention examples of session
settings
magnus: that would be OK
francois: relates to the list of directives we removed from the
document
... seems to me to be useful
magnus: examples being: never transform no matter what, only
transform if absolutely necessary, transform as much as possible and
so on
jo: that is similar to the list we will try to codify in POWDER as
server preferences
<scribe> ACTION: Jo to include examples in 2.5.1 bullet 3 per the
dicussion above [recorded in
[11]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/11-bpwg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-707 - Include examples in 2.5.1 bullet
3 per the dicussion above [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-03-18].
heiko: I expect POWDER is for the device capability database
... it's a follow on to WURFL?
jo: no
... we have been looking at it as a way of describing server
preferences
heiko: we need to capture the dependences on other projects, we need
to understand device capabilities
francois: we don't want to depend on POWDER
... and don't want to be delayed by it
... or indeed the DDR
... on 2.5.2
<francois> Transforming proxies MUST provide support for control
over the content
<francois> transformation process by origin servers.
<francois> These control mechanisms are detailed in section 3
(Behavior of Components).
<hgerlach> sorry quys, I have to leave for the next call:-(, cheers
Heiko
<andrews> +q
andrew: are we only referring to no-transform here?
francois: the controls are in section 3, at the moment it is true
that no-transform is the only control we have but maybe there will
be more control by POWDER later
jo: points out that vary and warning transformation applied are both
means of control
francois: I don't think we should list warning transformation
applied as a means of control
jo: agreed
<scribe> ACTION: Jo to update 2.5.2 in accordance with discussion
and Seoul resolution on preferences [recorded in
[12]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/11-bpwg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-708 - Update 2.5.2 in accordance with
discussion and Seoul resolution on preferences [on Jo Rabin - due
2008-03-18].
francois: aaron leaves 2.5.3 untouched, do we need to say more
<SeanP> This is another place where some examples may help.
jo: not sure
francois: it's a bit useless as is so examples would help
<francois> ACTION: daoust to write some examples for 2.5.3 [recorded
in [13]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/11-bpwg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-709 - Write some examples for 2.5.3 [on
François Daoust - due 2008-03-18].
jo: I'll try to update the doc in the next couple of days
<francois> Close ACTION-666
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-666 Draft section 2.6 listing user control
options that SHOULD be supported closed
[adjourned]
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: daoust to write some examples for 2.5.3 [recorded in
[14]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/11-bpwg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Jo to include examples in 2.5.1 bullet 3 per the
dicussion above [recorded in
[15]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/11-bpwg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Jo to reword 2.5.1 along the lines proposed by
Francois [recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/11-bpwg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Jo to update 2.5.2 in accordance with discussion and
Seoul resolution on preferences [recorded in
[17]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/11-bpwg-minutes.html#action03]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
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Received on Tuesday, 11 March 2008 16:13:28 UTC