- From: Franck Michel <fmichel@i3s.unice.fr>
- Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2023 17:47:51 +0100
- To: Yvan Le Bras <yvan.le-bras@mnhn.fr>, Carole Goble <carole.goble@manchester.ac.uk>
- Cc: Dan Bolser <dan.bolser@gmail.com>, public-bioschemas <public-bioschemas@w3.org>, Fabien Gandon <fabien.gandon@inria.fr>
- Message-ID: <e2cd2ee8-8d48-86dd-cdfc-b652b19ae03e@i3s.unice.fr>
Dear all,
Thank you for your remarks and comments. Actually I feel like the
discussion has already gone way beyond my initial question and proposition.
My point was to figure out a simple way to provide metadata about any
kind of resource on the web, not only web pages, in the form of
Schema.org markup.
RO-Crate is definitely a very interesting initiative but it primarily
concerns communities used to dealing with large data repositories like
Zenodo or Dataverse. Besides, it requires to encapsulate the produced
objects within an package (archive) that contains all necessary
additional metadata. This is great for enforcing FAIR ROs, but apart
from such specific needs, an image on the web will remain available as a
raw jpg or png file, same thing for a pdf, music, spreadsheet etc. We
cannot expect each web master to encapsulate those objects in RO-Crate
packages.
A way to mark up an object is to create a web page that links to this
object, and add markup on that page. But whenever the object is accessed
directly by its URL, it has no more markup data. As a result, SEO
practices have terrible recommendations like naming image files with a
super long name containing the name of the thing being represented, its
description, the image resolution etc. Ugly, right? XMP (Extensible
Metadata Platform) allows to embed metadata in binary files. That's much
better but this is limited to a few file types and this requires to
parse the content of the file itself.
So my point is: we can link objects on the web to their metadata with a
mechanism that has been there since HTTP 1.0 (RFC1945
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1945#page-59>, 1996!), that is
almost the beginning of the web: the HTTP Link header. Hence the example
of a web server that returns a pdf document along with this header:
Link: <document_metadata.json>; rel="meta"; type="application/ld+json"
Upside: it does not break nor impose anything. HTTP clients that don't
care or understand JSON-LD will just ignore it. Those that can consume
JSON-LD will fetch the metadata and use the Schema.org annotations to do
whatever they want. This way, search engines will know precisely what's
in the object, making tools like Google Image able to index images much
more effectively.
Downside: there has to be a second HTTP get query to retrieve the
JSON-LD metadata. No big deal.
Does it make sense or is it just totally obvious?
Franck.
Le 05/01/2023 à 11:55, Yvan Le Bras a écrit :
> Hi Franck, Carole, hi everyone,
>
> Let me first wish you all a happy new year !
>
> Sorry if I misunderstood or if I am totally wrong, but it appears to
> me important to try expose my point of view ;)
>
> Looking at your question Franck, and at answer from Carole notably, it
> seems to me that 1/ schemas.org is made to mark-up web pages and
> e-mail messages 2/ using an intermediate ""metadata layer"" who can be
> RDFa or JSON-LD for example.
>
> Thus, to add schemas.org vocabulary to ""files"", it appears to me the
> best is to use a metadata standard who describes the data, and for
> example also URLs to download data files, and then can be exposed in
> RDFa or JSON-LD for example through web pages where there schemas.org
> vocabulary is used... So in structured data accessible on the internet.
>
> Thus, we can use RO-Crate or other standardized way to produce RO
> metadata using schemas.org on JSON-LD web pages (for example we do so
> in Ecology using "Ecological Metadata Language" standard and we can
> look at the structured data on the data catalog like here
> https://data.pndb.fr/view/urn:uuid:99abf52c-b271-4b66-ae50-c504e492bc4c
> where we are using notably "schemaVersion", "url", "dataPublished",
> "dateModified", "description", "keywords", "creator",
> "temporalCoverage", "SubjectOf", "fileFormat", "spatialCoverage",
> ""geo", "latitude", "longitude", "variableMeasured" schema.org terms)
>
> => Here I give the EML oriented example because it allows us to have
> detailled metadata, notably with the "variableMeasured" who is
> something allowing our datasets to have a particularly higher FAIRness.
>
> Please, don't hesitate to comment !
>
> Wishing you a very good end of week,
>
> Best,
>
> Yvan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *De: *"Carole Goble" <carole.goble@manchester.ac.uk>
> *À: *"Dan Bolser" <dan.bolser@gmail.com>, "Franck Michel"
> <fmichel@i3s.unice.fr>
> *Cc: *"public-bioschemas" <public-bioschemas@w3.org>, "Fabien Gandon"
> <fabien.gandon@inria.fr>
> *Envoyé: *Jeudi 5 Janvier 2023 11:09:11
> *Objet: *RE: How to mark up a document other than a web page?
>
> https://zenodo.org/record/7147703#.Y7agoxXP2F4 is a longer talk that
> sets up the RO-Crate vision
>
> Carole
>
> Professor Carole Goble CBE FREng FBCS CITP
>
> Department of Computer Science
>
> The University of Manchester,
>
> Manchester, M13 9PL, UK
>
> Head of Node ELIXIR-UK <https://elixiruknode.org/>
>
> PLEASE Do not send me a calendar invite and expect me to see it. (i)
> Invites only work 50% of the time (ii) if they do work they do not
> appear as email so I don’t know they are there until it is too late.
>
> Want me at a meeting? Email me. Don’t just silently sneak into a diary
> I do not use.
>
> *From:*Carole Goble <carole.goble@manchester.ac.uk>
> *Sent:* 05 January 2023 09:54
> *To:* Dan Bolser <dan.bolser@gmail.com>; Franck Michel
> <fmichel@i3s.unice.fr>
> *Cc:* public-bioschemas@w3.org; Fabien Gandon
> <fabien.gandon@inria.fr>; Carole Goble <carole.goble@manchester.ac.uk>
> *Subject:* RE: How to mark up a document other than a web page?
>
> I have forwarded this thread to RO-Crate folks to pitch in
>
> RO-Crate https://www.researchobject.org/ro-crate/ packages files and
> annotates them with rich metadata (using Bagit). It uses JSON-LD and
> schema.org. It’s an example of using schema.org for multiple files not
> web pages.
>
> RO-Crate has gained a lot of traction in organisations needing to
> exchange digital objects with structured machine readable metadata,
> and is designed to be repository neutral – that is, enable inter-repo
> exchange. Zenodo and DataVerse have work ongoing to build compliance.
>
> https://zenodo.org/record/7376356#.Y7adghXP2F4 is a talk about the
> repository overlay aspect of RO-Crate
>
> Carole
>
> Professor Carole Goble CBE FREng FBCS CITP
>
> Department of Computer Science
>
> The University of Manchester,
>
> Manchester, M13 9PL, UK
>
> Head of Node ELIXIR-UK <https://elixiruknode.org/>
>
> PLEASE Do not send me a calendar invite and expect me to see it. (i)
> Invites only work 50% of the time (ii) if they do work they do not
> appear as email so I don’t know they are there until it is too late.
>
> Want me at a meeting? Email me. Don’t just silently sneak into a diary
> I do not use.
>
> *From:*Dan Bolser <dan.bolser@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* 05 January 2023 09:39
> *To:* Franck Michel <fmichel@i3s.unice.fr>
> *Cc:* public-bioschemas@w3.org; Fabien Gandon <fabien.gandon@inria.fr>
> *Subject:* Re: How to mark up a document other than a web page?
>
> https://www.tomforth.co.uk/scienceandpdfs/
>
> Looks useful
>
> On Wed, Jan 4, 2023, 5:50 PM Franck Michel <fmichel@i3s.unice.fr> wrote:
>
> Dear community,
>
> First of all, let me wish you all a happy, richly marked up new
> year ;).
>
> Schema.org is meant to mark up ressources of any kind on the
> internet, not just web pages. While presenting Bioschemas, I once
> had this question: how do I mark up a pdf file? More generally,
> how to mark up any resource other than an html or xml-based
> content, like pdf, image, csv, Excel sheet, zip archive etc. ?
>
> I recently asked this during a BSC meeting but it seemed that
> nobody had really faced this use case yet. And I did a quick
> Google search but nothing came up. So I'd be interested in having
> your thoughts on this.
>
> A basic solution would be to insert markup in the web page that
> provides the download link. Not so satisfying since, when an
> application downloads the file using its direct URL, there is no
> more markup.
>
> I could think of a simple solution that uses the HTTP Link header
> to point to a file containing the markup data (similarly to what's
> been done in JSON-LD
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld/#interpreting-json-as-json-ld> or
> CSCW <https://www.w3.org/TR/tabular-data-model/#link-header>). The
> exchange would look like this:
>
> GET /document.pdf HTTP/1.1
> Host: example.com <http://example.com>
>
> ====================================
>
> HTTP/1.1 200 OK
> Content-Type: application/pdf
> Link: <document_metadata.json>; rel="meta"; type="application/ld+json"
> ...
>
> Where document_metadata.json is a JSON-LD description of the file
> and its topic (written with Schema.org and Bioschemas of course).
> I'm not sure whether rel="meta" is the best choice here, but
> that's just an example.
>
> Note that some metadata may already be embedded in pdf and image
> files by means of XMP
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extensible_Metadata_Platform>,
> where Schema.org types and properties could be used. But this does
> not work with any type of file, plus applications may want to use
> only HTTP-based mechanisms to get the markup data, rather than
> have to read the content of binary files.
>
> Have you seen this kind of use case and usage somewhere? Any other
> solution you could think of? Do search engines expect this kind of
> linking to external markup files?
>
> Thx in advance. Regards,
> Franck.
>
> --
>
> Franck MICHEL, CNRS research engineer
>
> Université Côte d’Azur, CNRS, Inria
>
> I3S laboratory (UMR 7271)
>
>
>
> --
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yvan Le Bras, PhD @Yvan2935 <°))))><
> Responsable scientifique et technique "Pole National de
> Données de Biodiversité" https://www.pndb.fr/
> Bureau 34, Station marine de Concarneau BP 225, 29182 Concarneau
> CEDEX --- MNHN Unité de service PatriNat Paris
> tél.: +33 (0)
> 2 98 50 99 35 / +33 (0) 6.10.43.96.51
> yvan.le-bras@mnhn.fr
Received on Thursday, 5 January 2023 16:48:01 UTC