- From: <noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com>
- Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 17:07:11 -0500
- To: Jonathan Rees <jar@creativecommons.org>
- Cc: public-awwsw@w3.org
(Long note warning: the conclusion is in the last paragraph -- skip there if you don't want to read the whole thing. NM) Perhaps like Stewart, I find wikis to be on good days moderately effective at capturing consensus or current state of a group, but very clumsy as a medium for debate and discussion. So, I'll comment here in email. Hope that's OK. It's occurred to me that one of the reasons we're struggling with tricky cases, such as returning a description of a resource that's not an information resource, is that we may not have been clear enough on the simple case. We've gone to some trouble in AWWW to define an Information Resource as one which can be effectively captured in a computer message. What we haven't said, I don't think, is that representations of IRs in fact should be complete, when that's practical. I'm pretty sure Tim wants things to work this way, and I don't think I object, but I can't find any pertinent specifications that make it so. Let's look at some quotes from AWWW: > "A representation is data that encodes information about > resource state. Representations do not necessarily describe the > resource, or portray a likeness of the resource, or represent > the resource in other senses of the word "represent"" That certainly doesn't come very close to saying "A representation encodes the state of an information resource as completely as possible (exceptions being made for cases in which particular formats or devices require that fidelity be sacrificed)". Indeed, I see nothing in the AWWW quote that wouldn't apply to a non-IR. A picture of me is at best a very incomplete representation of me, but it certainly encodes some of my "state", and it's even easier to make the case that it encodes information "about" my state, which is what AWWW asks. Also from AWWW: > "Assuming that a representation has been successfully > retrieved, the expressive power of the representation's format > will affect how precisely the representation provider > communicates resource state. If the representation communicates > the state of the resource inaccurately, this inaccuracy or > ambiguity may lead to confusion among users about what the resource is." So, the format may limit fidelity, but one should never lie. Being incomplete is OK. It's only vaguely implicit that representations should be complete when possible. Under URI Persistence in AWWW [2] we find: > "As is the case with many human interactions, confidence in > interactions via the Web depends on stability and > predictability. For an information resource, persistence > depends on the consistency of representations. The > representation provider decides when representations are > sufficiently consistent (although that determination generally > takes user expectations into account). > > "Although persistence in this case is observable as a result of > representation retrieval, the term URI persistence is used to > describe the desirable property that, once associated with a > resource, a URI should continue indefinitely to refer to that resource." Again, nothing about completeness or fidelity, just consistency. OK, let's take a look at RFC 2616 [3]. The definitions of Resource and Representation are: > "Resource: A network data object or service that can be > identified by a URI, as defined in section 3.2. Resources may > be available in multiple representations (e.g. multiple > languages, data formats, size, and resolutions) or vary in other ways." > > "Representation: An entity included with a response that is > subject to content negotiation, as described in section 12. > There may exist multiple representations associated with a > particular response status." That seems to leave a lot of latitude on completeness of or fidelity of representations of Information Resources. Now looking at the pertinent part of the definition of GET: > "The GET method means retrieve whatever information (in the > form of an entity) is identified by the Request-URI." Hmm. That comes pretty close to saying that the resource itself is returned, since everyone agrees the URI identifies a resource, and it says to "retrieve what's identified by the URI". A charitable reading of this does suggest that completeness might be a good thing, but it's far from clear. > "If the Request-URI refers to a data-producing process, it is > the produced data which shall be returned as the entity in the > response and not the source text of the process, unless that > text happens to be the output of the process." Now that seems to indicate that we can return representations not just of document-like IRs, but of processes. In the description of status code 200 for GET we find: > "an entity corresponding to the requested resource is sent in > the response;" So, we have "corresponding to", which is yet another description of the relationship between a resource and its representation. FWIW: I don't think any of the above has change significantly in the draft HTTPbis [4]. Putting this all together, we seem to have gone to some trouble to: * In AWWW we carefully define Information Resources as those that can be transmitted with good fidelity in a computer message, but we don't in fact require that representations of IRs be complete * In resolution of HTTP Range 14, suggest that status code 200 is only appropriate for an information resource (which, FWIW, seems to go somewhat beyond but not otherwise contradict what's in RFC 2616), but again say nothing about the completeness or fidelity of the representation. Tim seems to make the obvious connection: if we've gone to all the trouble of saying that 200 is only appropriate for resources that can be represented with good fidelity in a message, then surely good practice is indeed to send representations that convey the resource's state completely and with good fidelity. I can't see anything with any normative force that says so. Should we decide whether this is what we mean, and if so find a suitable place to say it (perhaps in a finding for now, and in a revision to AWWW eventually? Ideally HTTPbis should clarify this, but I bet that would be hard socially, if not necessarily technically.) This seems crucial to justifying the claim that we can't with 200 return a representation such as a picture for a non-information resource. Noah [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/ [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#URI-persistence [3] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2616.txt [4] http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-lafon-rfc2616bis/ -------------------------------------- Noah Mendelsohn IBM Corporation One Rogers Street Cambridge, MA 02142 1-617-693-4036 --------------------------------------
Received on Thursday, 6 December 2007 22:05:37 UTC