W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-autowebplatform@w3.org > May 2014

Re: Vehicle Location Information

From: Rees, Kevron <kevron.m.rees@intel.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 08:52:38 -0700
Message-ID: <CAFW5wYYN=BwNGnsi7fHs2U0Lyd7dUsz3UfeVaDZJTT7t+8Up+A@mail.gmail.com>
To: ALDRIC LOYER <aldric.loyer@mpsa.com>
Cc: Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi <ta-hirabayashi@kddi.com>, Paul Boyes <pb@opencar.com>, Marc Lapierre <mlapierre@qnx.com>, 박종선(Justin Park) <jongseon.park@lge.com>, "public-autowebplatform@w3.org" <public-autowebplatform@w3.org>
On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 2:45 AM, ALDRIC LOYER <aldric.loyer@mpsa.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
> Thank you very much for this very interesting discussion. Before addressing this during our meeting on Tuesday, let me give you my opinion about that :
> First of all, I confirm that the position acquired by a Smartphone differs from the "Enhanced position" acquired and computed by the vehicle. When driving, and if available, the second one should be used.
> But in the same time, from most application developers point of view, I guess they don't really care who provides the position (the smartphone, a GPS peripheral, the Vehicle, a fake GPS,  ...). And then, they would probably prefer a single API description for all kind of sensors, that is to say the one from Geolocation API specification.
> Anyway, the choice of the best positioning sensor (Vehicle GPS or Smartphone GPS) must be done by someone, and probably not by the Smartphone maker...
> In consequence, in the same way as a "Fake GPS application", we have to provide a way to develop a kind of a "Car Enhanced GPS application" that will overwrite the smartphone GPS position with the vehicle acquired GPS position.

The way this works in android is to provide a "mock position service".
 This service provides data through the standard geopositioning APIs
in android, including the w3c geolocation implementation as well as
native APIs.  I have an app that does this with bluetooth GPS units
because android doesn't support bluetooth GPS by default.

This is how you solve Hirabayashi-san's use-cases:  The OEM (or 3rd
party) would provide an app for the phone that would provide a mock
positioning service that uses vehicle data.

No extra or additional APIs required to make this "just work" for ALL
position-aware applications that might run on the smartphone.

If we provide an additional API in the vehicle spec, existing
position-aware apps that aren't using the vehicle API will be broken.
The user will go through tunnels and will be very frustrated.  It's a
bad user-experience.

-Kevron

>Of course, this kind of application is at a lower level than any "position based customer application", but this one will need a specific API to get the "Vehicle acquired GPS position" which is, for me, still in the W3C Auto Web API scope.
> I'll check how this topic has been addressed in MirrorLink.
> Best regards
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Aldric LOYER
> PSA Peugeot Citroën
> Responsable de l'UEI COTI
> (Connectivity, Telematic and Infotainment)
> Direction de la Recherche et de l'Ingénierie Avancée
> Tel : +33 (0) 1 57 59 81 35 (20 81 35)
> Portable : +33 6 32 34 55 59
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi [mailto:ta-hirabayashi@kddi.com]
> Envoyé : vendredi 9 mai 2014 06:18
> À : 'Paul Boyes'
> Cc : 'Marc Lapierre'; '박종선(Justin Park)'; 'Rees, Kevron'; public-autowebplatform@w3.org
> Objet : RE: Vehicle Location Information
>
> Paul-san, Kevron-san, Justin-san
>
> I very much appreciate your comments.
>
> In Japan, there are many tunnels and road grid among buildings is
> complicated
> in the urban area, in which interruption of GPS signals arises frequently.
>
> Simple GPS solution is not available for us, because the error of
> positioning
> sometimes ranges from dozens of meters to several hundred meters.
>
> In such situations, Japanese car navigation devices with high accuracy
> have been developed so far.
>
> I also know that there are various methods to improve the accuracy of
> positioning
> by GPS and other strategies.
>
> I have no intention to define a separate API for each source and method.
> I understand that a single API is an ideal.
>
> My suggestion is just that we would like to get the simple mechanism and
> the opportunity
> so that accurate location data in a vehicle could be available for BYOD.
>
> Further to our discussions, shall we provide vehicle location data as a
> kind of vehicle data
> for the phone, especially for emergency purposes in Japan's road
> circumstances??
>
> I will arrive at the Tower hotel on the evening (around 17:00) of 21st, so
> after that
> and in the morning of 22nd I can discuss this topic.
>
> Thanks.
>
> T.Hirabayashi/KDDI
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Boyes [mailto:pb@opencar.com]
> Sent: Friday, May 09, 2014 4:50 AM
> To: ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp
> Cc: Marc Lapierre; Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi; 박종선(Justin Park); Rees,
> Kevron; public-autowebplatform@w3.org
> Subject: Re: Vehicle Location Information
>
> Hirabayashi-san,
>
> Would you give examples as to how the Vehicle Location API might look
> comparing it to the Geolocation API?  Hard and fast examples would really
> help me.
>
> Will you be attending the W3C Automotive Business Group meeting on Tuesday?
> If so, we should discuss.  Let’s definitely discuss at the face to face.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Paul J. Boyes
> --------------------------------
> Mobile:   206-276-9675
> Skype:  pauljboyes
>
>
>
>
> On May 8, 2014, at 11:22 AM, <ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp> <ta-
> hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp> wrote:
>
>
>         Hi, Marc-san
>
>         Thank you for your question and comment.
>         My comments are in line below as shown in simbols of ###
>
>
>         - first, by using the existing geolocation APIs, which would return
> the
>         geolocation data from the smartphone's GPS antenna
>
>         ### Right.
>
>         - second, using an automotive specific API, which would return the
>         geolocation data of the vehicle's antenna through the remote
> connection
>
>         ###  As I mentioned first, most of Japanese car navigation devices
> have
>         already higher accuracy (within 1 or 2 meters) in Japan than a
>         smartphone,
>         because error correction of GPS data are done by using gyro,
> vehicle
>         speed,
>         rotation angle of the wheel and so on
>         There may be a vehicle having a same function for accurate
> positioning.
>
>         We thought that geolocation information and vehicle location
> information
>         are distinct data in accuracy.
>
>         Under such circumstances, we would like to use the higher accurate
>         location
>         data after error corrections are completed, for web-apps of
> smarthone,
>         not GPS data in smartphone itself.
>
>         For this purpose, vehicle location API should be separately defined
> as
>         an
>         API other than geo-location API.
>
>         Best regards,
>
>         T.Hirabayashi/KDDI
>
>         ----- Original Message -----
>         Hi Tatsuhiko-san,
>
>         To clarify, am I correct in assuming that you are suggesting that
> two
>         separate APIs are for the use case where there is a remotely
> connected
>         smartphone which would like to access geolocation of the vehicle,
> and
>         that
>         separate APIs will allow the smartphone to access two sources of
>         geolocation information:
>
>         - first, by using the existing geolocation APIs, which would return
> the
>         geolocation data from the smartphone's GPS antenna
>         - second, using an automotive specific API, which would return the
>         geolocation data of the vehicle's antenna through the remote
> connection
>
>         In the case where the HTML5 application is running directly in the
>         vehicle's infotainment system, I would assume that both sets of
> APIs
>         would
>         return the same information.
>
>         Is this the idea behind the separate vehicle geolocation API, or is
>         there
>         another use case for this?
>
>
>         Best regards,
>
>
>         Marc Lapierre
>         Team Lead ­ HMI, Engineering Services
>         QNX CAR Platform
>
>         T +1 613 591 0931 ext. 24889
>         F +1 613 591 3579
>         E mlapierre@qnx.com
>
>         QNX Software Systems Limited
>         A subsidiary of BlackBerry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>         On 2014-05-08 10:01 AM, "Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi" <ta-
> hirabayashi@kddi.com
>
>
>
>         wrote:
>
>
>
>                 Hi, Paul-san, Justin-san
>
>                 Thank you for your comments.
>
>                 I thought that in consideration of 2 use-cases, WRT in the
> phone side
>                 would provide
>                 web-apps geo-location data which is generated by phone
> itself.
>
>                 Although accurate location data has been calculated in a
> vehicle or
>                 built-in type navigation
>                 device, smartphone apps cannot access these data in geo-
> location API.
>
>                 If the previous vehicle location API will be available, we
> can get
>                 accurate data outside the
>                 phone in place of geo location data which is generated by
> phone itself.
>
>                 This issue is not implementation detail in a web layer.
>                 I believe that vehicle location API will be very simple
> solution for 2
>                 use-cases.
>
>                 Your understandings would be appreciated.
>
>                 T.Hirabayashi/KDDI
>
>
>
>                 -----Original Message-----
>                 From: 박종선(Justin Park) [mailto:jongseon.park@lge.com]
>                 Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 9:33 PM
>                 To: 'Paul Boyes'; 'Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi'
>                 Cc: 'Rees, Kevron'; public-autowebplatform@w3.org
>                 Subject: RE: Vehicle Location Information
>
>                 I’m on the same page with Kevron’s opinion that it is an
> implementation
>                 issue rather than API definition.
>
>
>
>                         From what I understand, it’s hard to find a reason
> to have additional
>                         location API in our specification.
>
>
>
>                 Unfortunately, I’m not quite sure about the meaning of the
> sentence
>
>
>         below.
>
>
>
>
>
>                 “In either case, geo-location API generated by these apps
> will be
>                 terminated within the phone, and it is so difficult for us
> to access
>                 accurate data.”
>
>
>
>                 In consideration of 2 use-cases, WRT in the phone side
> would provide
>
>
>         geo
>
>
>                 location data which is generated by phone itself or comes
> from vehicle.
>
>                 I have no idea what makes it difficult to access accurate
> data and how
>                 additional location API makes it easier.
>
>                 I'd be thankful if Mr. Hirabayashi could elaborate a little
> bit further.
>
>
>
>                 Regards,
>
>                 Justin
>
>
>
>                 From: Paul Boyes [mailto:pb@opencar.com]
>                 Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 7:53 AM
>                 To: Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi; 박종선(Justin Park)
>                 Cc: Rees, Kevron; public-autowebplatform@w3.org
>                 Subject: Re: Vehicle Location Information
>
>
>
>                 Hirabayashi-san,
>
>
>
>                 This is a great topic as these type of relationships to
> other specs
>
>
>         will
>
>
>                 come up repeatedly.  Thanks for posting.
>
>
>
>                 Perhaps a vehicle location api is needed and the group
> should
>
>
>         definitely
>
>
>                 discuss. That said, it seems to me that we are discussing
> the
>                 implementation layer.  In its introduction, the Geolocation
> API
>                 (http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source.html) states the
> following:
>
>
>
>                 "The Geolocation API defines a high-level interface to
> location
>                 information associated only with the device hosting the
> implementation,
>                 such as latitude and longitude. The API itself is agnostic
> of the
>                 underlying location information sources. Common sources of
> location
>                 information include Global Positioning System (GPS) and
> location
>
>
>         inferred
>
>
>                 from network signals such as IP address, RFID, WiFi and
> Bluetooth MAC
>                 addresses, and GSM/CDMA cell IDs, as well as user input. No
> guarantee
>
>
>         is
>
>
>                 given that the API returns the device's actual location."
>
>
>
>                 Here are some thoughts and questions:
>
>
>
>                 ―Does the Geolocation API give the web developer the
> information they
>                 need to develop apps at the web layer in a vehicle?  If not
> what is it
>                 missing (this may tell us what a vehicle location api might
> need)?
>
>                 ―The Geolocation API has the concept of accuracy as part
> of the
>                 Coordinates interface.
>
>                 ―There is nothing stopping the implementer of the
> Geolocation API from
>                 using vehicle data in their implementation to make it more
> accurate.
>
>                 ―The Vehicle Information API is geared to application
> developers at the
>                 web layer not lower implementation layers.
>
>                 ―The Vehicle Information API and the Geolocation API can
> be used in
>                 conjunction with each other to implement higher level
> application
>                 functionality,
>
>
>
>                 I suggest we do the following:
>
>
>
>                 ―Add a section to the Vehicle Information API laying out
> it’s
>                 relationship to the Geolocation API.  In my opinion, it
> would say for
>                 geolocation information use the Geolocation API.
>
>                 ―Ask the Geolocation group to add statement the “common
> sources”
>
>
>         section
>
>
>                 of the introduction about using vehicle information.
>
>
>
>                 Justin,
>
>
>
>                 I would love to hear your thoughts if you have time as well.
>
>
>                 Paul J. Boyes
>
>                 --------------------------------
>
>                 Mobile:   206-276-9675
>                 Skype:  pauljboyes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                 On May 7, 2014, at 2:45 AM, Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi
>                 <ta-hirabayashi@kddi.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>                 Hi, Kevron-san
>
>                 If the high-grade IVI system you mentioned is available,
> high accurate
>                 data will be provided without any problem by geo-location
> API.
>
>                 However, the fact is that there are some type of IVI system
> using
>                 smartphone.
>
>                 The following types will have difficulty to get high
> accurate
>
>
>         positioning
>
>
>                 data by using geo-location API even if accurate positioning
> data is
>                 available in vehicle or built-in navigation device;
>
>                 Case-1
>                 Smartphone (BYOD) is operating as a head unit, and having
> full
>                 functionality
>                 and connectivity with vehicle;   App run on the phone.
>                 Case-2
>                 Smartphone (BYOD) is operating in conjunction with a head
> unit in
>                 vehicle;
>                 Apps run on the phone.
>
>                 In either case, geo-location API generated by these apps
> will be
>                 terminated within the phone, and it is so difficult for us
> to access
>                 accurate data.
>
>                 Therefore, I thought that vehicle location API would be
> needed as a
>                 distinct API other than geo-location API.
>
>
>                 Thanks
>
>                 T.Hirabayashi/KDDI
>
>                 -----Original Message-----
>                 From: Rees, Kevron [mailto:kevron.m.rees@intel.com]
>                 Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 8:24 AM
>                 To: ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp
>                 Cc: Paul Boyes; public-autowebplatform@w3.org
>                 Subject: Re: Vehicle Location Information
>
>                 On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 3:44 PM,  <ta-hirabayashi@kddi-
> ri.jp> wrote:
>
>
>
>                 Thanks Kevron-san.  See my comments in line below:
>
>                 1 - Is the geolocation API good enough for vehicles?  If
> not, we need
>                 to work with that group to fix it.
>
>                 #1 As mentioned, the geolocation API is not good enough for
> vehicles.
>                 We need some correction of positioning data acquired by the
>                 geolocation API for vehicle in Japan.
>
>
>                 Is the correction done in the implementation or the API?
> What
>                 additional APIs do you need other than what the geolocation
> API
>                 provides?  The Location API we had in our spec had even less
>                 information than what is available today in the geolocation
> spec.
>
>                 I guess what I'm trying to clarify is that the geolocation
> API
>                 implementation in a vehicle need not be the same as a
> mobile phone
>                 implementation.  While Position.coords.latitude
>                 (http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source.html#position) might
> not be
>                 very accurate in a mobile phone, the implementation of the
> same API
>                 can be very accurate in a vehicle (due to different antenna
>                 positioning, additional data from the vehicle, dead
> reckoning, etc.).
>                 But the API is the same in both.
>
>                 If there are vehicle-specific APIs that need to be added
> for location
>                 other than what's already in the geolocation spec, I'd like
> to know
>                 what those are.  Otherwise, we should assume that the
> geolocation api
>                 implemented in a vehicle will have the most accurate fix
> possible
>                 -which means it will be a different implementation than a
> simple
>                 mobile implementation.
>
>                 -Kevron
>
>
>
>
>                 We understand that vehicle location informantion API is
> needed to get
>                 the
>                 result after some corrections of crude positioning data are
> made.
>
>                 2 - Can implementers of the geolocation API take advantage
> of vehicle
>                 data to improve accuracy?  I think the answer is "yes".
>
>                 #2 Yes
>
>                 T.Hirabayashi
>
>                 ----- Original Message -----
>                 It was my understanding, and Paul, please correct me if I'm
> wrong,
>                 that we felt there should be changes to the geolocation
> API, that
>                 those changes should be proposed to that group.  We want to
> avoid
>                 duplicate APIs.  As far as accuracy goes, an OEM can
> implement the
>                 geolocation API with much more accuracy in the vehicle
> because they
>                 have more data available (gyro, rotation angle of the
> wheel, etc).
>                 That however is not an API problem.  It's an implementation
> problem.
>
>                 So there are two questions that need to be solved:
>
>                 1 - Is the geolocation API good enough for vehicles?  If
> not, we need
>                 to work with that group to fix it.
>                 2 - Can implementers of the geolocation API take advantage
> of vehicle
>                 data to improve accuracy?  I think the answer is "yes".
>
>                 On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 7:37 AM,  <ta-hirabayashi@kddi-
> ri.jp> wrote:
>
>
>
>                 Hi, Paul-san and Kevron-san
>
>                 While I do not notice it, a definition of the vehicle
> location
>                 information disappears in
>                 first draft spec.
>
>                 In the last f2f meeting, Urata-san pointed out the generic
> geolocation
>                 information (GPS-based)
>                 is not accurate enough. With gyro, vehicle speed, rotation
> angle of
>
>                 the
>
>
>
>                 wheel and so on, most
>                 of car navigation diveces have higher accuracy (within 1 or
> 2 meters
>                 errors in any roads of
>                 Japan) than conventional devices such as a smartphone and
> tablet.
>
>                 In the case where the OS and the device which web apps are
> running on
>                 support generic
>                 geolocation APIs, it becomes difficult for us to acquire
> the accurate
>                 positioning data easily
>                 if vehicle location information should be not available as
> it is.
>
>                 In short, we thought that geolocation information and
> vehicle location
>                 information are distinct
>                 APIs in accuracy.
>
>                 Can you restore the definition of vehicle location
> information in spec?
>
>                 T.Hirabayashi/KDDI
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Received on Friday, 9 May 2014 15:53:07 UTC

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