MINUTES: 18 Jun 2020 ARIA Working Group

Link to minutes:
https://www.w3.org/2020/06/18-aria-minutes.html


[W3C]<http://www.w3.org/>

- DRAFT -
ARIA Working Group
18 Jun 2020
Attendees
Present
StefanS, jamesn, pkra, MichaelC, Scott_O, MarkMccarthy, jongund, CurtBellew, BGaraventa, harris, carmacleod, Jemma
Regrets
GretaKrafsig, JoanmarieDiggs
Chair
SV_MEETING_CHAIR
Scribe
jongund
Contents

  *   Topics<https://www.w3.org/2020/06/18-aria-minutes.html#agenda>
     *   Future meetings (meet July 2?)<https://www.w3.org/2020/06/18-aria-minutes.html#item01>
     *   New Issue Triage<https://www.w3.org/2020/06/18-aria-minutes.html#item02>
     *   New PR Triage<https://www.w3.org/2020/06/18-aria-minutes.html#item03>
     *   Meaty topic for next week (9am PDT June 25) - Greg Whitworth will be joining to talk about https://open-ui.org/<https://www.w3.org/2020/06/18-aria-minutes.html#item04>
     *   1.2 TOPIC menuitemradio/menuitemcheckbox shouldn't support aria-expanded. Maybe radio should?<https://www.w3.org/2020/06/18-aria-minutes.html#item05>
     *   1.2 TOPIC Cleanup menuitemradio grouping author requirements<https://www.w3.org/2020/06/18-aria-minutes.html#item06>
     *   1.2 TOPIC 2.3.2 Information for User Agents: account for aria-owns<https://www.w3.org/2020/06/18-aria-minutes.html#item07>
     *   https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1289<https://www.w3.org/2020/06/18-aria-minutes.html#item08>
  *   Summary of Action Items<https://www.w3.org/2020/06/18-aria-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
  *   Summary of Resolutions<https://www.w3.org/2020/06/18-aria-minutes.html#ResolutionSummary>

________________________________

Scribe, jongund

Future meetings (meet July 2?)

<MarkMccarthy> scribe: jongund

JN: meeting next week
... I cannot meet on July 2nd

<pkra> +1

JG: Just cancel it

New Issue Triage

<jamesn> https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+created%3A%3E%3D2020-06-11+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-aam&type=Issues

https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1290

JN: Issue related to nested modals, can we do this in 1.3?

JC: Yes definitely not 1.2, maybe 1.3
... Webkit has an implementation that could be standardized

JN: If we can find an easy solution that would be awsome

https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1289

JN: Putting aria-haspop on a link

CM: This is a 1.2 issue

JN: Let's try to talk about it later today or next week

CM: It doesn't included in the working draft

JN: You can use rawgit on stable has the current what's in and what's out, use rawgit

https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1288

JN: From Wilco

CM: It's in 1.2

JN: I have a feeling this is more than just label, but if it is a different attribute it could cause the same issue

CM: I guess, but it was about label

JN: Is this only about label? It might be just an example of their concern

CM: Put in a comment that we should close it

JC: Conflict on presentational roles

JN: On presentational elements we do not allow labelling
... Authors must not or should not....
... If you put a global on a presentational role, it is an authoring error
... Don't do it or 1.3?

SO 1.3

New PR Triage

<jamesn> https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+created%3A%3E%3D2020-06-11+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-aam&type=Issues

PK: I have some changes

JN: You have had some approvals

JC: Removing ranges of characters

PK: It creates a link to the commons

JC: I will approve them

JN: I am going to merge it soon

Meaty topic for next week (9am PDT June 25) - Greg Whitworth will be joining to talk about https://open-ui.org/

JN: Open UI community group working with the ARIA group
... I invited Greg to the deep dive next week, to see how we can help each other

CM: Has anyone looked at it?

<MarkMccarthy> Note: URL is https://open-ui.org - there is an extra quotation mark in the above clickable link

CM: It is an awesomeproposal, but it is a ton of work

<jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1422

JN: I think alot of work would be with practices, but we can talk about that next week
... He was on the edge team now with salesforce

1.2 TOPIC menuitemradio/menuitemcheckbox shouldn't support aria-expanded. Maybe radio should?

<jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1277

<jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1277

CM: I sent e-mail about this, please review

<jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1278

CM: Don't look at the issue, go to PR, the issue is out of date
... Just look at the 3 small changes in the code

JN: I need some reviewers
... We are making progress on 1.2 issues

<Jemma> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/8BalNiJZ/

1.2 TOPIC Cleanup menuitemradio grouping author requirements

https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1275

JN: The reviewers are done
... I just merged

1.2 TOPIC 2.3.2 Information for User Agents: account for aria-owns

<jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1224

JN: We have approvals form carolyn and matt

JC: I can't take myself out of the list, but I am not doing any more review

discussing alex's comments

JN: Aaron are you ok with this?

<jcraig> Fine with group resolution, but requested comments from Alex and Aaron "@cookiecrook requested review from asurkov and [alev] and removed request for cookiecrook on May 8"

AL: I had to many tabs open, let me look it

JN: Peter are you ok with this?

PK: I think it is OK

AL: I marked approved

JN: Anymore discussion?

JC: Merge

JN: I will merge after the meeting
... I dismissed your review James
... Looks like it will get merged
... We have one issue left

https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1289

JG: Isn't it related to the link button discussion earlier in the call

JN: This is from a colleagueof mine, if a link opens up in a dialog

SB: It should be a button, screen reader have terrible support for has-popupon a link

JN: AT make it a menu button

HS: I am with Sina with this, I won't fight keeping off, but I don't think it is something that is needed
... Nobody really knows why we need has-popup=dialog is needed

JC: I don't know of any native scenarios

SO: We had prior agreement that it should not be on links

JC: There are still instances, where people will use links to open windows
... People will use Javascript to open windows instead of an HTML window, so I don't have any theoretical opposition on link

JN: It is like a big tooltip with navigation
... It changes focus, but not visual context

SB: How does your focus go back

JN: It is modal

SB: From a screen reader perspective is it modal?

JN: Yes

SB: It must have a close button

JN: Or an escape key

JC: I think there are some use cases for has-popup on a link, there is an example using history and the back button

SB: When it is done wrong it is a nightmare

JC: When it is wrong people want us to remove aria-hidden

JN: I need to go for a minute

SO: My other question, do we need all these different values?
... If it is important to have it on a link, it is weird that all thse values are allowed on a link

CM: good point

values grid, dialog, list ...

JC: We could have some guidance

<Scott_O> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1024

MC: There is a mixed restriction on checked

<MarkMccarthy> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1289

JN: There are other places aria-haspopup that these values may not make sense

SO: This is a loaded thing and all the values make sense, are these really needed?
... A screen reader would know, but visually they all look the same

JC: The impact, links can have stylistic differences, like on wikipedia
... The potential oddity to the user, when there is something that does not make sens
... The user may want to ask someone what is going on when it does not make sens
... I am not a fan of limiting vocabulary, since we often find use cases

SB: When you use speech syllables have a cost

JC: It is only a problem when it is weird

JN: The change will cause validation errors, since it global now
... We need to make changes in the AAM

SB: I need a win, I get JC

<pkra> gotta drop off early - bye everyone.

JC: Wikipedia doesn't use haspop, it was just an example of styling links differently

SB: I am worried developers wee this and think they should use it

MC: We can add a don't to this

SB: I won't fight it, but I think this not a good practice

SO: I am also concerned about author abuse

JN: I see two ways: add it back to links, or links do not need to use it
... If you don't need it explain why they don't need it

JC: I would say, what styling did you use to indicate behavior, so if the sighted user doesn't know there is a dialog, the screen reader is in the same position

SB: But sighted users don't get length of lists

JC: But they can grok it

SO: If it is the difference in the controls visual styling to indicate the popup, then it should be used...

JC: It is a judgement call, it designers did styling to convey the behavior, then it should be used

SO: That is the start of a note
... The necessity of this attribute is not always needed, and we need to communicate that part of the decision is based on visual information

JC: Most menu buttons have a cheveron to indicate visually a popup

SO: Then there is a decision tree on what to convey

JN: This sounds more like authoring practices, or both

SO: The note in the spec does not have to be long

JN: Do we have agreement to put this back on link?

<Jemma> +1

<jcraig> +1

+1

CM: Or don't care

<Jemma> I agree

SO: We don't think we want to have validation errors, I think it is silly

JC: We need to add an issue in APG to discuss this issue

JN: aria-haspopup should only be used when there is a visual indicator

JC: When there is a visual indicator...

Several people will review

Summary of Action Items
Summary of Resolutions
[End of minutes]


Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., CPWA
Coordinator of Accessible IT Group
University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
1207 S. Oak Street
Champaign, IL 61820

Phone: (217) 244-5870
E-mail: jongund@illinois.edu<mailto:jongund@illinois.edu?Subject=Re%3A%20Alternative%20date%20combobox%20grid%20date%20picker%20example%20for%20ARIA%20APG&In-Reply-To=%3CBYAPR11MB3413C2168E1DF82F6E4C7B2CC8BE0%40BYAPR11MB3413.namprd11.prod.outlook.com%3E&References=%3CBYAPR11MB3413C2168E1DF82F6E4C7B2CC8BE0%40BYAPR11MB3413.namprd11.prod.outlook.com%3E><mailto:jongund@illinois.edu<mailto:jongund@illinois.edu?Subject=Re%3A%20Alternative%20date%20combobox%20grid%20date%20picker%20example%20for%20ARIA%20APG&In-Reply-To=%3CBYAPR11MB3413C2168E1DF82F6E4C7B2CC8BE0%40BYAPR11MB3413.namprd11.prod.outlook.com%3E&References=%3CBYAPR11MB3413C2168E1DF82F6E4C7B2CC8BE0%40BYAPR11MB3413.namprd11.prod.outlook.com%3E>>
www: https://go.illinois.edu/jongund