Minutes ARIA WG July 16, 2020

Draft minutes are available at:

https://www.w3.org/2020/07/16-aria-minutes.html

and pasted below.

 

Best,

Matt

 

 <http://www.w3.org/> 


- DRAFT -


ARIA WG


16 Jul 2020


Attendees


Present

jamesn, Joanmarie_Diggs, irfan, janina, MichaelC, Scott_O, jongund, harris,
MarkMccarthy, StefanSchnabel, carmacleod, Matt_King

Regrets

Chair

JamesNurthen

Scribe

Matt_King


Contents


*	 <https://www.w3.org/2020/07/16-aria-minutes.html#agenda> Topics

1.	 <https://www.w3.org/2020/07/16-aria-minutes.html#item01> Meaty
topic for next week -
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Adeep-dive
2.	 <https://www.w3.org/2020/07/16-aria-minutes.html#item02> add to
author errors section info about aria-pressed and aria-checked on switch -
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1296

*	 <https://www.w3.org/2020/07/16-aria-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
Summary of Action Items
*	 <https://www.w3.org/2020/07/16-aria-minutes.html#ResolutionSummary>
Summary of Resolutions

  _____  

<jamesn>  <https://react-spectrum.adobe.com/>
https://react-spectrum.adobe.com/

<scribe> scribe: Matt_King

No new issues!!!

jn: oo, surprised, is somethingwrong/

Issue 1453

oops, that is a practices issue.

First issue is for aria editors.

jn: Michael can you put it on editors agenda.

pr 1298

<jamesn>  <https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1298>
https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1298

jg: Basically, think example is overly complicated
... mixing accname and acc desc is confusing people.

jn: reviewers?

scott: Joanie and I worked on including that example dues to confusion
related to html caption.

got that example to show that if someone puts in a full paragraph as a
caption that perhaps some of that should be part of a description.

jg: think more complex things like that should go in apg

scott: fine by me

Joanie: If authors put in a giant caption and it makes a giant name, then
hopefully users will put a stop to it via feedback. Not sure we can fight
this in the spec or apg.

JN: maybe put a note to say to avoid long captions to avoid excessively long
names

joanie and scott: good with a note

scott: not opposed to change, just providing rationale for why it was what
it was

carolyn: add me


Meaty topic for next week -
<https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Adeep-dive
>
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Adeep-dive


jn: should we have a deep dive next week?

carolyn: Woud like to talk about Mac and Windows having different use cases
for space key

raised by james craig in practices.

Still working out what the topic is exactly.

jc: will be out for a few weeks

back week of aug 10.

Carolyn: we can wait till James is back

jn: please file issue to generate discussion

Hearing nothing for next week.

If you have something, please file issue before tuesday. as of now, no deep
dive meeting.


add to author errors section info about aria-pressed and aria-checked on
switch -  <https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1296>
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1296


jn: Don't necessarily look at this suggestion as a way to resolve it. This
issue is to generate discussion.

<jamesn>  <https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9187>
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9187

NVDA announces role switch as pressed checked

<jamesn>
<https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9187#issuecomment-457001861>
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9187#issuecomment-457001861

James Teh comment onjan 23 is inspiration.

James Teh has a suggestion that would expose checked and not expose pressed.

JC: Is there a reason that don't want to expose it as an on/off switch

scott: they have not done that before. it has been expossed, switch has been
exposed as a toggle button

jc: surprised nvdea would not want to include that as well.

jn: in core-aam, it gets exposed as a toggle with an object attribute of
switch.

Sina: what does that mean, that is exposed as an obj attrib?

jn: there is no native mapping, it is only in object attribute.

Sina: what does that mean to expose it as a switch?

jd: In orca, if it is a switch, I don't say toggle button, I say switch.

If pressed is true, I have Orca announce "on".

JC: Yes, rather than meaning exposed in the AX API, I was talking about how
it is conveyed to the user.

Sina: Could that result in a toggle being announced as "On"?

JC: that is a screen reader implementation decision.
... What is distinction between native role and aria role? If there is an
IA2 property, it is a NVDA choice if they want to expose that.

Sina: I don't know if I got that from Jamie's comment.

jn: seems like NVDA is exposing exactly what is in the API. they don't have
any extra logic here that uses the obj attribs.

Can we do anything to help them? or do they need to resolve this on their
own.

jc: Is Jamie talking about the mapping spec, not the aria spec?

jn: I think so

Sina; wondering where the disconnect is. The mapping is to toggle button,
not switch.

Joanie, is going above and beyond and renaming the role and the state based
on the obj attributes.

is that a mapping issue, or is it a screen reader implementation decision.

jd: Problem is a API gap in IA2.

we could add switch role to IA2.

If they don't want to add a switch role, which is hard, then they should
check the obj attribs when rendering toggles.

jn: why did we map to toggle instead of checkbox?

carolyn: maybe b/c of mixed state

switch cannot be mixed.

jn: but we used the checked state on the switch.
... it might work be better if switch were mapped to checkbox and checked.

mk: what is the IA2 state for a toggle button?

carolyn: you suggesting we rewrite the spec

jn: no

might need a core-aam change

scott: seems like the way he resolves this is by ignoring the spec and
making switches into checkboxes

Sina: raises author confusion that can happen by putting checked on a button
with a switch role.

jn: we could allow either pressed or checked on a button

<Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to try to wrap this

jn: 2 potential issues: 1) do we want to do something to help authors get it
right? 2) Do we want to do something in core-aam

seem reasonable

jd: yes

jn: can you log core-aam issue?

jd: yes

sina: is this ever worth resolving by adding aria-on property?

seems like this is not sustainable

to re-use checked

Seems like we do thing that make things less clear than they should be

<joanie>  <https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/75>
https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/75 is the new issue

<jamesn> thanks joanie

Can we have a generic aria binary property? seems like there is a need for
that.

jn: not sure how to turn that into an action at this time.
... do people support doing this? where would it live? does someone want to
start working on it?

jc: not willing to start it myself but something we should do eventually.

jn: something that would be part of 1.3? or separate?

jc: no need to tie to 1.3. could be separate.

I think this from an accessibility discussion at google.

Maybe a note, maybe not normative

jn: Should we add a comment that says this seems like a good idea but we
don't have anyone to work on it. WG is willing to review and advise if
someone can start it.

Carolyn: sounds good.

<jamesn>  <https://github.com/w3c/aria/projects>
https://github.com/w3c/aria/projects

jn: I put a bunch of projects together. Each is a potential focus area.

Tables and grids have a bunch of issues.

Live region issues is another.

aria-controls is a potential topic.

IDL is another.

attribute parity is a possible project. do we care about that?

jc: It will eventually be something we need for testing.

carolyn: huge effort.

jn: Is the testing issue an aria wg problem or a browser implementer
problem.

jc: fair question

Not thinking it is important in the short term.

carolyn: agree that is not a short term priority. We have other things that
are broken and need to be fixed now.

jn: OK, decision, attribute parity deprioritized for 1.3.

Braille support is another project, continuing to build on work we have
started.

Remaining role parity. how important is that.

jc: what is left.

scott: associationlist is something that needs to be figured out.

jn: aren't they in for 1.3?

scott: yes, want to make sure that lands.

jn: we can keep that going.

But, are there more things left to do that are solveable now?

I'd not object to some kind of prefix approach.

for things that don't already have mappings, e.g., native-___

jc: Could make it clear for web dev tools to give a warning if authors use

jn: We have 1.3 project for role parity, and there is an issue to consider a
native or host role prefix for audio, video, etc.

We could extend that issue to include other things that have not yet been
mapped and that could wrap all role parity.

mk: would like to take up text separation

jn: yes, hear you, we should keep that.
... 3 others in hi pri, list type for parity with ol and ul, and input type
for role parity with html input types

the input one could not be solved with a prefix. native-input would not
create tneeded differentiation.


Summary of Action Items


Summary of Resolutions


[End of minutes]

  _____  

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by David Booth's
<http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm> scribe.perl
version ( <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/> CVS log)
$Date: 2020/07/16 18:09:53 $
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Default Present: jamesn, Joanmarie_Diggs, irfan, janina, MichaelC, Scott_O,
jongund, harris, MarkMccarthy, StefanSchnabel, carmacleod, Matt_King
Present: jamesn Joanmarie_Diggs irfan janina MichaelC Scott_O jongund harris
MarkMccarthy StefanSchnabel carmacleod Matt_King
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From: James Nurthen <nurthen@adobe.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 10:58 AM
To: ARIA Working Group <public-aria@w3.org>
Subject: Agenda: ARIA WG July 16, 2020

 


ARIA Working Group Teleconference - 2020-07-16


Call Agenda


If you would like to add an item to the agenda please send reply to this
mail.

*
<https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+creat
ed%3A%3E%3D2020-07-09+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fco
re-aam&type=Issues> New Issue Triage
*
<https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+created%
3A%3E%3D2020-07-09+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-
aam&type=Issues> New PR Triage
*	Meaty topic for next week
*	 <https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1296> add to author errors
section info about aria-pressed and aria-checked on switch
*	 <https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1295> Consider adding a new
"AccRole" doc to link all the different resources that can affect the
computed role
*	1.3 Planning


Previous Meeting Minutes


https://www.w3.org/2020/07/09-aria-minutes.html


Logistics


San Francisco (U.S.A. - California) 

Thursday, July 16, 10:00 AM PDT


Boston (U.S.A. - Massachusetts) 

Thursday, July 16, 1:00 PM EDT


London (United Kingdom - England) 

Thursday, July 16, 6:00 PM GMT+1


Paris (France) 

Thursday, July 16, 7:00 PM GMT+2


Tokyo (Japan) 

Friday, July 17, 2:00 AM GMT+9


Corresponding UTC (GMT) 

Thursday, July 16, 5:00 PM UTC

Duration: 1 hour

Chair: JamesNurthen

Scribe:

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James Nurthen (he/him)
Accessibility engineer

T 415 832 2734  
nurthen@adobe.com <mailto:nurthen@adobe.com>