Re: Important concerns with naming calculation 'name from content' not being included in parent role accessible name.

Hi Aaron -

I'm definitely interested in the list you mention providing - and my head
won't explode upon receipt! That event already occurred trying to
understand the impact of the 508 Refresh combined with EN 301 549 and WCAG
2.0 - BLEH!

                                                                                            
 Kind Regards,                                       “It always seems impossible until it's 
                                                                                     done.” 
 Ann Abbott                                                                                 
 IBM Collaboration Solutions Accessibility Lead                                             
 Member: International Association of Accessibility                        ― Nelson Mandela 
 Professionals (IAAP)                                                                       
 Member: W3C WAI-ARIA 1.1 Authoring Practices Guide                                         
 Working Group                                               18 July 1918 – 5 December 2013 
                                                                                            
                                                                                            
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From:	Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com>
To:	Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>, Matt King
            <a11ythinker@gmail.com>, James Nurthen
            <james.nurthen@oracle.com>, ARIA Working Group
            <public-aria@w3.org>, Dominic Mazzoni <dmazzoni@google.com>,
            Marco Zehe <marco.zehe@gmail.com>, Rich Schwerdtfeger
            <richschwer@gmail.com>, david bolter <david.bolter@gmail.com>,
            Alexander Surkov <asurkov@mozilla.com>, James Craig
            <jcraig@apple.com>
Date:	05/23/2017 02:38 PM
Subject:	Re: Important concerns with naming calculation 'name from
            content'  not being included in parent role accessible name.



That's fine Bryan, I agree we have to do a better job of explaining. I can
only imagine how hard that is, given the fact that although we do try to
spec things, there seem to be a lot of hidden smarts in the browsers
anyway, not to mention edge cases. So keep poking us. The rules attempt to
do what you'd intuitively want as a developer, and that may lead to some
interesting nuance or edge cases. It may not always be perfect.

The way Chrome and Firefox handles your above examples is that for nameless
generic document structure roles (not widgets), they are not strongly
nameless. They are allowed to contribute to ancestor name-from-contents,
even though they don't have their own name. As my colleague Alice Boxhall
noticed, this seems to not be in the spec but should be.

So for example, list item contents would still contribute to a heading
name, but if it was a listbox widget, it would not.

I'm happy to provide a list of roles that we do this for, as long as it
doesn't make anyone's head explode.

Aaron

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 3:19 PM Bryan Garaventa <
bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com> wrote:
  Hi,
  I'm not trying to belabor this, but I have to explain this to developers,
  and I'm still seeing potential issues with this.

  So to be clear, if the recursive 'name from content' algorithm for a
  valid role does not include the name of any child elements that are set
  as 'name from content' = false, then this rule applies to all of the
  following roles according to the spec. (Including all implicit roles with
  these mappings as well)

  cell
  columnheader
  gridcell
  header
  link
  menuitem
  row
  rowgroup
  rowheader
  tooltip
  treeitem

  I've seen examples of headings that include lists of links within them,
  as well as tooltips that include a list of checklist criteria within
  them, and according to this algorithm this would cause such elements to
  omit this content from the accessible names of each.

  So, though there are many roles below that don't make sense to be
  embedded as children of the above listed roles, there are many that do
  however, and are automatically mapped by the browsers when certain HTML
  elements are used by themselves.

  So can you say that the above roles will never or should never include
  child elements with the below roles, and if they do then it is acceptable
  to ignore their content when calculating the names of the above roles?

  alert
  alertdialog
  application
  article
  banner
  combobox
  complementary
  contentinfo
  definition
  dialog
  directory
  document
  feed
  figure
  form
  grid
  group
  img
  list
  listitem
  listbox
  log
  main
  marquee
  math
  menu
  menubar
  navigation
  note
  progressbar
  radiogroup
  region
  scrollbar
  search
  searchbox
  separator
  slider
  spinbutton
  status
  table
  tablist
  tabpanel
  term
  textbox
  timer
  toolbar
  tree
  treegrid

  Bryan Garaventa
  Accessibility Fellow
  SSB BART Group, Inc.
  bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com
  415.624.2709 (o)
  www.SSBBartGroup.com

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Bryan Garaventa [mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com]
  Sent: Monday, May 22, 2017 3:23 PM
  To: Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>; 'James Nurthen' <
  james.nurthen@oracle.com>; 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>;
  aleventhal@google.com; 'Dominic Mazzoni' <dmazzoni@google.com>; 'Marco
  Zehe' <marco.zehe@gmail.com>; 'Rich Schwerdtfeger' <richschwer@gmail.com
  >; 'david bolter' <david.bolter@gmail.com>; 'Alexander Surkov' <
  asurkov@mozilla.com>; 'James Craig' <jcraig@apple.com>
  Subject: RE: Important concerns with naming calculation 'name from
  content' not being included in parent role accessible name.

  In going through the spec to identify which roles are which for this
  purpose, there is a discrepancy in the section "5.2.7.5 Roles Supporting
  Name from Content", where role=tree is listed as supporting this, even
  though it is not supported when viewing the section for role=tree.

  'tree' should be removed from the list in section 5.2.7.5.

  I've documented all of the relevant roles that apply with this exception
  below.

  Roles with 'children presentational' = true button checkbox img math
  menuitemcheckbox menuitemradio option progressbar radio scrollbar
  separator slider switch tab

  So browsers should not restrict the 'name from content' if any of the
  following explicit or implicit roles are embedded within any of the
  previous explicit or implicit roles. (I'm not saying they are valid
  children, just referring to the naming calculation if this exception is
  applied equally as we spoke of.)

  Roles with 'name from content' = false
  alert
  alertdialog
  application
  article
  banner
  combobox
  complementary
  contentinfo
  definition
  dialog
  directory
  document
  feed
  figure
  form
  grid
  group
  img
  list
  listitem
  listbox
  log
  main
  marquee
  math
  menu
  menubar
  navigation
  note
  progressbar
  radiogroup
  region
  scrollbar
  search
  searchbox
  separator
  slider
  spinbutton
  status
  table
  tablist
  tabpanel
  term
  textbox
  timer
  toolbar
  tree
  treegrid


  Bryan Garaventa
  Accessibility Fellow
  SSB BART Group, Inc.
  bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com
  415.624.2709 (o)
  www.SSBBartGroup.com

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Matt King [mailto:a11ythinker@gmail.com]
  Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 3:52 PM
  To: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>; 'James Nurthen' <
  james.nurthen@oracle.com>; 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>;
  aleventhal@google.com; 'Dominic Mazzoni' <dmazzoni@google.com>; 'Marco
  Zehe' <marco.zehe@gmail.com>; 'Rich Schwerdtfeger' <richschwer@gmail.com
  >; 'david bolter' <david.bolter@gmail.com>; 'Alexander Surkov' <
  asurkov@mozilla.com>; 'James Craig' <jcraig@apple.com>
  Subject: RE: Important concerns with naming calculation 'name from
  content' not being included in parent role accessible name.

  While the name calculation algorithm is conceptually simple, it would be
  a stretch to say that every conditional branch is clear. We've definitely
  been mining some gems over the course of the last year or so.

  WRT naming, It would be illogical to say that children presentational is
  nonconsequential.

  "2. f. Otherwise, if the current node's role allows name from content, or
  if the current node is referenced by aria-labelledby, aria-describedby,
  or is a native host language text alternative element:"

  When a table or list is nested in a button, it acquires role
  presentation.
  So, when that table or list becomes the current node in the name
  calculation, it allows name from content.

  That seems reasonably clear to me.

  Matt

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Bryan Garaventa [mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com]
  Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 1:43 PM
  To: Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>; 'James Nurthen'
  <james.nurthen@oracle.com>; 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>;
  aleventhal@google.com; 'Dominic Mazzoni' <dmazzoni@google.com>; 'Marco
  Zehe'
  <marco.zehe@gmail.com>; 'Rich Schwerdtfeger' <richschwer@gmail.com>;
  'david bolter' <david.bolter@gmail.com>; 'Alexander Surkov' <
  asurkov@mozilla.com>; 'James Craig' <jcraig@apple.com>
  Subject: RE: Important concerns with naming calculation 'name from
  content'
  not being included in parent role accessible name.

  Thanks,
  That makes sense to me as well.

  At present however the accessible name of the tab is null (""), and there
  is nothing conveyed in the accessibility tree as the name for the tab in
  Firefox regardless.

  So are we all in agreement then, that if children presentational is true
  on a specific role, then it doesn't matter if name from content is
  missing from a child construct role?

  Is this actually clearly conveyed in the naming calculation?

  Thanks,
  Bryan


  Bryan Garaventa
  Accessibility Fellow
  SSB BART Group, Inc.
  bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com
  415.624.2709 (o)
  www.SSBBartGroup.com

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Matt King [mailto:a11ythinker@gmail.com]
  Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 12:20 PM
  To: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>; 'James Nurthen'
  <james.nurthen@oracle.com>; 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>;
  aleventhal@google.com; 'Dominic Mazzoni' <dmazzoni@google.com>; 'Marco
  Zehe'
  <marco.zehe@gmail.com>; 'Rich Schwerdtfeger' <richschwer@gmail.com>;
  'david bolter' <david.bolter@gmail.com>; 'Alexander Surkov' <
  asurkov@mozilla.com>; 'James Craig' <jcraig@apple.com>
  Subject: RE: Important concerns with naming calculation 'name from
  content'
  not being included in parent role accessible name.

  Bryan,

  Spec says tab has presentational true. Table is not a required owned
  element or required context role for tab. So, the table should disappear
  and the code you provided should use the text node of the table to
  calculate the name ... that is what the spec says.

  Matt

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Bryan Garaventa [mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com]
  Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 11:16 AM
  To: James Nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com>; 'ARIA Working Group'
  <public-aria@w3.org>; 'Matt King' <a11ythinker@gmail.com>;
  aleventhal@google.com; 'Dominic Mazzoni' <dmazzoni@google.com>; 'Marco
  Zehe'
  <marco.zehe@gmail.com>; 'Rich Schwerdtfeger' <richschwer@gmail.com>;
  'david bolter' <david.bolter@gmail.com>; 'Alexander Surkov' <
  asurkov@mozilla.com>; 'James Craig' <jcraig@apple.com>
  Subject: RE: Important concerns with naming calculation 'name from
  content'
  not being included in parent role accessible name.

  In theory yes, but where does it say in the spec this is required?

  This is a boiled down version of something that was used in one of our
  client websites that has been accessible for 3 years, but now is broken
  in Firefox because of this change.

  We should not be breaking accessibility as we go forward.


  Bryan Garaventa
  Accessibility Fellow
  SSB BART Group, Inc.
  bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com
  415.624.2709 (o)
  www.SSBBartGroup.com

  -----Original Message-----
  From: James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com]
  Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 11:12 AM
  To: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>; 'ARIA Working
  Group'
  <public-aria@w3.org>; 'Matt King' <a11ythinker@gmail.com>;
  aleventhal@google.com; 'Dominic Mazzoni' <dmazzoni@google.com>; 'Marco
  Zehe'
  <marco.zehe@gmail.com>; 'Rich Schwerdtfeger' <richschwer@gmail.com>;
  'david bolter' <david.bolter@gmail.com>; 'Alexander Surkov' <
  asurkov@mozilla.com>; 'James Craig' <jcraig@apple.com>
  Subject: RE: Important concerns with naming calculation 'name from
  content'
  not being included in parent role accessible name.

  As this is a table for layout
  - it should have
  role=presentation on it. This
  would then work wouldn't it?
  Regards,
  james

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Bryan Garaventa
  [mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbar
  tgroup.com]
  Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017
  11:08 AM
  To: ARIA Working Group
  <public-aria@w3.org>; Matt
  King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>;
  aleventhal@google.com; Dominic
  Mazzoni <dmazzoni@google.com>;
  Marco Zehe
  <marco.zehe@gmail.com>; Rich
  Schwerdtfeger
  <richschwer@gmail.com>; david
  bolter
  <david.bolter@gmail.com>;
  Alexander Surkov
  <asurkov@mozilla.com>; James
  Craig <jcraig@apple.com>
  Subject: Important concerns
  with naming calculation 'name
  from content' not being
  included in parent role
  accessible name.

  Hi,
  As most of us spoke of this
  last Monday in the APG call, I
  wanted to raise important
  concerns about the
  interpretation of the naming
  calculation, that specific
  roles that do not include
  'name from content' are not
  being included in the parent
  role accessible name
  calculation.

  It was pointed out that this
  change is already included in
  Firefox, and I have built a
  sample that demonstrates why
  this global interpretation is
  dangerous. The following
  markup structure is now
  totally inaccessible in
  Firefox as a result of this
  change.

  <div tabindex="0" role="tab">
          <table>
                  <tr>
                          <td>
  Inbox </td>
                          <td>
  (23) </td>
                  </tr>
          </table>
  </div>

  Such a global interpretation
  would not just apply to all
  explicitly applied roles but
  to all implicitly mapped ones
  as well, and it is impossible
  to predict how and in what
  order all developers will need
  to apply ARIA roles in order
  to ensure accessibility in the
  future and that doesn't take
  into account what people are
  already doing right now.

  Aaron, can you please include
  the markup example here that
  you spoke of to demonstrate
  why this is a needed globally
  applied interpretation?

  Thanks,
  Bryan



  Bryan Garaventa
  Accessibility Fellow
  SSB BART Group, Inc.
  bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.c
  om
  415.624.2709 (o)
  www.SSBBartGroup.com