RE: Important concerns with naming calculation 'name from content' not being included in parent role accessible name.

In going through the spec to identify which roles are which for this purpose, there is a discrepancy in the section "5.2.7.5 Roles Supporting Name from Content", where role=tree is listed as supporting this, even though it is not supported when viewing the section for role=tree.

'tree' should be removed from the list in section 5.2.7.5.

I've documented all of the relevant roles that apply with this exception below.

Roles with 'children presentational' = true
button
checkbox
img
math
menuitemcheckbox
menuitemradio
option
progressbar
radio
scrollbar
separator
slider
switch
tab

So browsers should not restrict the 'name from content' if any of the following explicit or implicit roles are embedded within any of the previous explicit or implicit roles. (I'm not saying they are valid children, just referring to the naming calculation if this exception is applied equally as we spoke of.)

Roles with 'name from content' = false
alert
alertdialog
application
article
banner
combobox
complementary
contentinfo
definition
dialog
directory
document
feed
figure
form
grid
group
img
list
listitem
listbox
log
main
marquee
math
menu
menubar
navigation
note
progressbar
radiogroup
region
scrollbar
search
searchbox
separator
slider
spinbutton
status
table
tablist
tabpanel
term
textbox
timer
toolbar
tree
treegrid


Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
SSB BART Group, Inc.
bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com
415.624.2709 (o)
www.SSBBartGroup.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Matt King [mailto:a11ythinker@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 3:52 PM
To: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>; 'James Nurthen' <james.nurthen@oracle.com>; 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>; aleventhal@google.com; 'Dominic Mazzoni' <dmazzoni@google.com>; 'Marco Zehe' <marco.zehe@gmail.com>; 'Rich Schwerdtfeger' <richschwer@gmail.com>; 'david bolter' <david.bolter@gmail.com>; 'Alexander Surkov' <asurkov@mozilla.com>; 'James Craig' <jcraig@apple.com>
Subject: RE: Important concerns with naming calculation 'name from content' not being included in parent role accessible name.

While the name calculation algorithm is conceptually simple, it would be a stretch to say that every conditional branch is clear. We've definitely been mining some gems over the course of the last year or so.

WRT naming, It would be illogical to say that children presentational is nonconsequential.

"2. f. Otherwise, if the current node's role allows name from content, or if the current node is referenced by aria-labelledby, aria-describedby, or is a native host language text alternative element:"

When a table or list is nested in a button, it acquires role presentation.
So, when that table or list becomes the current node in the name calculation, it allows name from content.

That seems reasonably clear to me.

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Garaventa [mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 1:43 PM
To: Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>; 'James Nurthen'
<james.nurthen@oracle.com>; 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>; aleventhal@google.com; 'Dominic Mazzoni' <dmazzoni@google.com>; 'Marco Zehe'
<marco.zehe@gmail.com>; 'Rich Schwerdtfeger' <richschwer@gmail.com>; 'david bolter' <david.bolter@gmail.com>; 'Alexander Surkov' <asurkov@mozilla.com>; 'James Craig' <jcraig@apple.com>
Subject: RE: Important concerns with naming calculation 'name from content'
not being included in parent role accessible name.

Thanks,
That makes sense to me as well.

At present however the accessible name of the tab is null (""), and there is nothing conveyed in the accessibility tree as the name for the tab in Firefox regardless.

So are we all in agreement then, that if children presentational is true on a specific role, then it doesn't matter if name from content is missing from a child construct role?

Is this actually clearly conveyed in the naming calculation?

Thanks,
Bryan


Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
SSB BART Group, Inc.
bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com
415.624.2709 (o)
www.SSBBartGroup.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Matt King [mailto:a11ythinker@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 12:20 PM
To: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>; 'James Nurthen'
<james.nurthen@oracle.com>; 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>; aleventhal@google.com; 'Dominic Mazzoni' <dmazzoni@google.com>; 'Marco Zehe'
<marco.zehe@gmail.com>; 'Rich Schwerdtfeger' <richschwer@gmail.com>; 'david bolter' <david.bolter@gmail.com>; 'Alexander Surkov' <asurkov@mozilla.com>; 'James Craig' <jcraig@apple.com>
Subject: RE: Important concerns with naming calculation 'name from content'
not being included in parent role accessible name.

Bryan,

Spec says tab has presentational true. Table is not a required owned element or required context role for tab. So, the table should disappear and the code you provided should use the text node of the table to calculate the name ... that is what the spec says.

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Garaventa [mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 11:16 AM
To: James Nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com>; 'ARIA Working Group'
<public-aria@w3.org>; 'Matt King' <a11ythinker@gmail.com>; aleventhal@google.com; 'Dominic Mazzoni' <dmazzoni@google.com>; 'Marco Zehe'
<marco.zehe@gmail.com>; 'Rich Schwerdtfeger' <richschwer@gmail.com>; 'david bolter' <david.bolter@gmail.com>; 'Alexander Surkov' <asurkov@mozilla.com>; 'James Craig' <jcraig@apple.com>
Subject: RE: Important concerns with naming calculation 'name from content'
not being included in parent role accessible name.

In theory yes, but where does it say in the spec this is required?

This is a boiled down version of something that was used in one of our client websites that has been accessible for 3 years, but now is broken in Firefox because of this change.

We should not be breaking accessibility as we go forward.


Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
SSB BART Group, Inc.
bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com
415.624.2709 (o)
www.SSBBartGroup.com

-----Original Message-----
From: James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 11:12 AM
To: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>; 'ARIA Working Group'
<public-aria@w3.org>; 'Matt King' <a11ythinker@gmail.com>; aleventhal@google.com; 'Dominic Mazzoni' <dmazzoni@google.com>; 'Marco Zehe'
<marco.zehe@gmail.com>; 'Rich Schwerdtfeger' <richschwer@gmail.com>; 'david bolter' <david.bolter@gmail.com>; 'Alexander Surkov' <asurkov@mozilla.com>; 'James Craig' <jcraig@apple.com>
Subject: RE: Important concerns with naming calculation 'name from content'
not being included in parent role accessible name.

As this is a table for layout
- it should have
role=presentation on it. This
would then work wouldn't it?
Regards,
james

-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Garaventa
[mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbar
tgroup.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017
11:08 AM
To: ARIA Working Group
<public-aria@w3.org>; Matt
King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>;
aleventhal@google.com; Dominic
Mazzoni <dmazzoni@google.com>;
Marco Zehe
<marco.zehe@gmail.com>; Rich
Schwerdtfeger
<richschwer@gmail.com>; david
bolter
<david.bolter@gmail.com>;
Alexander Surkov
<asurkov@mozilla.com>; James
Craig <jcraig@apple.com>
Subject: Important concerns
with naming calculation 'name
from content' not being
included in parent role
accessible name.

Hi,
As most of us spoke of this
last Monday in the APG call, I
wanted to raise important
concerns about the
interpretation of the naming
calculation, that specific
roles that do not include
'name from content' are not
being included in the parent
role accessible name
calculation.

It was pointed out that this
change is already included in
Firefox, and I have built a
sample that demonstrates why
this global interpretation is
dangerous. The following
markup structure is now
totally inaccessible in
Firefox as a result of this
change.

<div tabindex="0" role="tab">
	<table>
		<tr>
			<td>
Inbox </td>
			<td>
(23) </td>
		</tr>
	</table>
</div>

Such a global interpretation
would not just apply to all
explicitly applied roles but
to all implicitly mapped ones
as well, and it is impossible
to predict how and in what
order all developers will need
to apply ARIA roles in order
to ensure accessibility in the
future and that doesn't take
into account what people are
already doing right now.

Aaron, can you please include
the markup example here that
you spoke of to demonstrate
why this is a needed globally
applied interpretation?

Thanks,
Bryan



Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
SSB BART Group, Inc.
bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.c
om
415.624.2709 (o)
www.SSBBartGroup.com

Received on Monday, 22 May 2017 22:24:03 UTC