- From: Richard Schwerdtfeger <richschwer@gmail.com>
- Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2016 10:44:44 -0500
- To: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group <public-aria@w3.org>
- Message-Id: <C4C0553B-137E-41D7-A0F5-AAA3C93A5AFC@gmail.com>
Web:
http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-aria-minutes.html <http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-aria-minutes.html>
Text:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
ARIA Working Group
23 Sep 2016
[2]Agenda
[2] https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2016
Attendees
Present
Charles_LaPierre, Romain_Deltour, jesse,
Joanmarie_Diggs, Janina, Hadley, Peter, Linss, MichaelC
Regrets
Chair
Rich
Scribe
joanie, MichaelC, janina, jnurthen, Lisa_Seeman,
david_macdonald
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]TAG Review - ARIA
2. [5]TAG Debrief
3. [6]Triage
* [7]Summary of Action Items
* [8]Summary of Resolutions
__________________________________________________________
<richardschwerdtfeger> trackbot, start meeting
<trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications
Working Group Teleconference
<joanie> scribe: joanie
<richardschwerdtfeger>
[9]https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/wiki/ARIA_2.0_Issue_Triage
[9] https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/wiki/ARIA_2.0_Issue_Triage
TAG Review - ARIA
RS: A few months ago we met with TAG and talked about issues we
want to address in future ARIA work.
<richardschwerdtfeger>
[10]https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/wiki/ARIA_2.0_Issue_Triage
[10] https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/wiki/ARIA_2.0_Issue_Triage
RS: We also had a list of issues for ARIA 2.0 (url above)
... Some of these issues will be addressed by AOM.
Alex: I understood that earlier in the week, there's an
agreement to get full parity with HTML and ARIA.
I've also worked with Alice Boxhall.
Is there a proposal for extensibility?
<tzviya> s/Fixme/Alex
RS: We've not yet looked at role extensibility yet.
... We've started a thread on github regarding control
patterns.
... I don't think that will be enough to get us there, however.
... Control patterns is not currently in the AOM roadmap.
... I think for first steps, we have getting the additional
roles in for web components.
... AOM and query selector can be used for this.
... They also allow for accessing elements as objects rather
than element id.
... The next release of AOM is supposed to be out in a year.
Alex: How will that work with AOM (computed role name)?
RS: ARIA can take multiple role values.
... Whichever one wins will be the computed role.
... But the role will not be what you get at the platform
level.
Alex: I understand that AOM is the computed output of style
information, DOM information, ARIA information, and script that
you modify it with.
... I'm trying to understand what authors will get as a result.
RS: This will also help with automated testing.
... Something else we're going to have to look at is generated
content.
... We can get at it via the accessibility API, but not from
the element itself.
... Some people have been making great progress with automated
testing.
... So the CR cycle will be much, much shorter going forward.
... I'd like to hear your thoughts on accessibility.
Alex: I'm putting my designer hat on.
... Today we have a fixed vocabulary, which we currently
extend.
... In web components, we were seeing people extend through
javascript, divs, spans, etc.
... We have tag names in the document, and a table from which
you can look up names and values.
... All custom elements require a dash in their name.
... It's posible for authors to create a whole world of
elements with no overlap.
... When an element is created, the parse finds it in the
document and decides what to do.
... In the case of custom elemnts, we need to wait for that
element's definition to load.
... From there, how do you inform the system regarding what to
do?
... In ARIA, it's well defined, so you have cross-platform/API
behavior.
kirkwood: That's where I would start, anyway.
RS: We talked about control patterns from UIA.
... They have a combination of properties and functions.
... So I can know if they are clickable, scrollable, etc.
<MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
<dbaron> ScribeNick: MichaelC
ar: for web components we saw developers rebuilding their own
component model
is there exploration in how frameworks are building higher
level behavior for ARIA today
rs: no
ar: would be a good exercise
ls: first set of roles 10 years ago anticipated RDF
so taxonomy intended to allow people to create their own roles
but that never took off
the background in the taxonomy never took off
ar: was the processing designed?
rs: were working on it, namespaces fell out of favor, ...
people weren´t working on it
tz: tried recently
can´t extend via RDFa
rs: we could revisit that
ls: would be good to go back to that
rs: would browser vendors want that?
ar: don´t think so
do we know what developers are asking for?
rs: we´ve been asked for extensibility
haven´t collected comprehensive use cases
need to do that
our top priority is roles
ar: excited for reconcilitation of ARIA & HTML
rs: the automated test harnes will save us a lot of time
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask about creating terms without
API mappings
tz: for publishing, there is processing that maps to what user
needs to understand
e.g., I´m in a chapter, not a chunk of stuff
going forward, working on assessments for a learning management
system
need to know I´m using a multiple-choice question, not just a
question
not a candidate for core ARIA vocab
have explored list of roles without AAPI mapping
might have <p role=¨multiple-choice¨>
mk: what is difference from that and using roledescription?
rs: two kinds of extensibility
there are custom widgets, making discoverable
then there is extending taxonomy without worry about mappings
mk: AT localize role strings
if they don´t want to call an article an article, they don´t
have to
they are responsible for localizing
author must localize roledescription
clp: could you navigate among questions using roledescriptions?
mk: question of underlying semantics
question of whether user knows what they are so they know to
use e.g., next element, next region, etc
rs: so don´t map stuff that doesn´t have value to AT
jgw: 2 kinds of extensibility
define new widget composed of familiar properties and behaviors
vs something genuinely novel, can you declare what it is, how
to interact, what operations it supports, their effects, etc.
for educational applications some could be handled by first
kind of extensibility, others by the second
mk: with right primitives you should be able to make anything
jgw: depends on what they are
if you could define arbitrary operations, what they´re called,
interaction model for its input device
that´s pretty low level
vs something that accepts text input or something, where you
don´t need to define elementary behaviors
there may be a continuum, but see these as distinct
rs: need device independent interaction
adding keyboard support is the most costly thing of creating a
component
would be a lot easier if we could abstract and push that to the
browser
define a common pattern
is TAG looking at that?
ar: no
some work on bundling up apis
that can make packages of accessible behavior
might relate to web components work, we should discuss with
them
rs: accessibility been issue since 2002 in that
can we explore?
ar: TAG role is to facilitate conversation
rs: device independent interaction will be most positive thing
going forward
mc: are there open questions about ARIA WG plans?
ar: full overlap between HTML and ARIA proposed for 1.2?
rs: not sure which version, may require refactor
ar: so soon but not immediate
then, extensibility
db: what is full overlap?
ar: ARIA role and state mappings exist to HTML features
there are HTML features that don´t have corolaries
like p, blockquote
db: ok so features that exist in one
mc: there isn´t consensus how far to go, do we map div? some
say yes some no
ar: need to refine the plan then
<richardschwerdtfeger> taking a break
<scribe> meeting: ARIA FtF Day 2
<janina> scribe: janina
TAG Debrief
[Discussion of whaqt topic to take up when]
JasonJGW wants to discuss use cases related to extensibility --
probably 13:30
rs: Web Components wants an ARIA role for all HTML semantics
...
... This will require ARIA spec refactoring, as it's a lot of
stuff
jd: A lot of roles, yes, not sure how best to approach
rs: a module?
jd: we don't need to decide yet
jc: Let's not wait too long, when we're really overloaded on
roles
jd: Let's wait until we have physical document issue to solve
rs: I'm disinclined to go for a monolithic 2.0, prefer
incremental releases that come quicker
<mhakkinen> +1 to faster, modular releases
fb: Perhaps feature releases would help us get revs out more
quickly
mk: e.g. select a feature or two, spec them,get them out
... Couldn't the extensibility piece be its own release?
rs: Could
... Lookingat the things that slow us down, automated testing
is no longer a problem
... But, we would have to refactor 1.0
... That means enough people to work on it ...
mk: Whatever it takes to reduce the overhead that gets us to
smaller, quicker releases
... We also don't want people waiting forever for critical
pieces
rs: e.g. static role
jc: If quick releases, in AOM we've set up explicit scope per
release
... e.g. media controller, only webkit implementation, amazing
a11y use case for description, captioning, etc
... not picked up outside of webkit
... That took it out of the spec
... Think this group lacks that kind of process discipline
... That kind of discipline is the only way to insure fairness
jc; Clearly, we all want inclusion, but we can't get everything
jc: Expect we might maybe get to a point where there's enough
change that we just call the next release 2.0
... My proposal for 1.x that we define inclusion/exclusion
criteria
... In AOM we require all platforms support
... What's the bare minimum that we can ship and still deliver
benefit
<jcraig> HTML module: html-prefixed 1:1 role mapping
jc: For 1.2 proposing html module and ...
... for 1 to 1 mappings ...
... also ambiguous roles, like frameset, script
<jcraig> HTML support: "generic" role for HTML support
jc: generic role, div span, etc
<jcraig> maybe HTML support: ~"custom" role for HTML support
for uncontrollable elements
jc: could use in the interim for video
<jcraig> Errata: "static" role to match previous (existing)
implementations of text role.
jc: should be subclass of image
<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to suggest a scope for ARIA 1.2
mk: that's a lot
... agree we should have inclusion/exclusion discussion, but
should do it before we go into specifics of what might, or not
be included
jc: Also need a narrow scope along with inclusion/exclusion
mk: those topics are not criteria
... that's a feature scope proposal, not criteria
... having existing implementations is clearly good
... but what if there are no implementations but wide agreement
something is really important?
... we need to map out the future as well
<richardschwerdtfeger> q/'
mk: suggest we need to lay out a map for the future as well as
the specifics of the next release
<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention inclusion criteria is 1.
HTML role parity, 2. The one or two ARIA roles, we need to
support HTML role parity, and 3. Errata (mapping things that
exist
jc: repeating ...
... but also errata
... i.e. get a match to today's implementations
... these are items in previous drafts that we pulled ina way
it's hard to get a replacement in
rs: don't understand your custom role
jc: yes, not a great name
... we need to deal with nonrendered tags, div, style
rs: are cusom complenents going to use generic roles?
mk: screen readers do reneder div and font differently
<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to ask about aspirational speccing
vs reflective speccing
jc: we need to solve this to have html one-to-one parity
mc: it's always a challenge to distinguish between reflective
and aspirational specs
... we've been aspirational
... but if only reflective we may not meet our mission on a11y
... i want a sense of the appropriate balance
mk: if only reflective then non browser people are at the mercy
of browsers
<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to discuss aspirational
mc: whatever balance we choose, we would need a way to know
we're holding to it
jc: agree that some things that have happened would not have
happened had we not been aspirational
... but sometimes we think if we get that in the spec, it will
force implementations
... perhaps sometimes it does
... aspirational features should get more buyin on the way --
that it's worthy to pursue
... need to be sensitive to what is, and isn't technical
solvable
... consider UAG, almost nothing in the browser, but most
achievable with styling
... the UI of AT, as of the browsers, varies as a way to draw
users
<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say prepend use case
documentation to requirements gathering
mc: also formal use case documentation earlier
jc: also scoping use cases, indieui was too huge
mc: i'm ok with wide open use cases, but filtered and
disciplined in our choices of what to spec
mk: i like that
jc: we also need more end author buyin. we have implementors
and users, but need authors
rs: we need at vendors involved
rs some of us need to go out and get them directly involved. we
should not have to chase them
rs: this is part of getting things done faster
mh: so we have three ...
mk: apple, microsoft, google, linux
... not the big market share
mh: how to get them to the table?
... asking dept of ed in U.S. to pay to get them into TPAC
mk: it's the amount of time, not just the TPAC week
jc: don't believe you're suggesting U.S. pay for Freedom
Scientific, perhaps though NVDA is worthy
... the call is an hour i'm not doing something else
... css is doing this, moving to github issues instead of
weekly telecons
mk: perhaps worth discussing that specific topic
jc: maybe an github issue, with a set of tagsets to track
implementation
mk: but their inmput might have changed hat we spec'd
rs: I'll talk with NVDA and FS and see where we get
... we are moving to github
jc: maybe github will be enough
mk: implicit could be serious issue
jc: my proposal is that it works as today
rs: now looking at correct pronunciation issue -- how do we
move forward on that
... it's not html parity
... is there an agile approach
jc: suggest file bug on webkit, also other platforms
... once there's a browser implementation, put up a web page
that shows the issue clearly
[the page of shame]
rs: suggest work that in parallel.
... if it transpires there's something for aria, we'll have
more info on what that is
jc: proposes an immediate CfC on 1.2 scope
... html parity and static
rs: remember we have an HTML AAM
mc: but often fuzzy
... what about input control types, which is how we got into
password discussion
... we're sorting priciples of what goes into dot next
rs: we need to coord with web componenets
jc: maybe we don't have to complete html parity in 1.2
mc: does the timjeline win? anything not ready moves to noext
rev?
rs: I think yes
jn: then we never get to the big stuff for 2.0
mc: wcag is trying this, point releases plus major release
... we'll see how it goes
mc; worried a bit about the cost of dot release
mc: seems from fpwd to tr is no less than 8 months
<Zakim> janina, you wanted to suggest as needed involvement is
the enemy of quick and frequent specs
janina: needs to be accountability and participation for
decisions, so as not to revisit issues especially when releases
are calendar driven
jc: I suggest you bring people in with the carrot, not the
stick.
mc: agree with different individual priorities, but there's
also the commitment to the group that should be part of that
<MichaelC> because it complements their priorities
mc: there has certainly been much concern about how heavy our
process is
... on the one hand it's how we insure fairness
... on the other hand, we don't want to be burdensome
... asking for level of participation so we don't have to
revisit issues needs to be part of that
joanie: want to get back to inimumj w3c fpwd to tr timeline
... maybe we want to better organize ourselves, so that
possible features aren't in the draft spec so long that people
implement before we've actually decided it's a spec feature
... suggest 1.2 1.3 1.4 without finalizing, ut 1.5 goes tr
... we need to tell implementors that we won't pull the rug
out, we promise you can use this
lisa: we did that with 1.0
... suggest new things be also fit into the ontology as a
sanity check
rs: we do that
lisa: maybe a tf for 2.0
... perhaps could start with requirements
mc: if we did that we would probably want the tf scoped to the
architecture
mk: could we define stages for each element of work
... design, ready to implement, has two, ...
... actually so laeled in the doc
... making it clearer what stage each piece/feature is at
jc: sounds like a living standard
mk: pull the implemented and tested into a point release
mc: haven't been convinced that living standards are a good
idea
jc; and when you have two to keep in sync
mc: we had the "already implemented" problem in 1.0
joanie: something i'm trying to avoid
mc: especially the web page implementation then the browsers
change
mk: labeling stages also helps spec development because authors
could knowlingly help us evaluate that value of features
mc: our risk assessment will be aided by auto testing
rs: we still need to figure out a reasonale timeline for html
parity
mc: many things to sync, spec, aam, apg
mk: once the apg is up to date, should not be hard to keep it
updated
rs: how much time to catch up with html parity
jn: we're not writing that
jc: maybe an example of how to point to it
rs: also want to sync up with aom
jc: don't know
rs: can we assume end of 2017?
<jnurthen> scribe: jnurthen
JC: would like it to be closer to match orientated
RS: where would we need to cut next year
if targetted for end of next year... would we need to cut in
July?
MK: talking about a timeline b4 the criteria?
RS: think we should set timelimits on things
... want to avoid massive wordsmithing during meetings
MK: want to set some expectations about cadence
<jcraig> AOM editors don't need "HTML Role Parity" for AOM...
That need is for Web Components, particularly the "default role
per Web Component" idea being discussed in Web Platform.
want to be able to get spec text done in 6 months
RS: not saying what will be in the content
MK: need some consensus on inclusion/exclusion
RS: when do we need to cut it off
JC: can't do timeline without knowing what exclusion/inclusion
is?
RS: need to put out for CFC
JC: no point in timeline now if don't know what the criteria is
MK: if know from the beginning need 2 implelementions - time in
CR could be less
JC: the thing I am talking about - assuming it works the way I
expect it would be a trivial change in webkit and chrome -
would just be dropping synonymns into the role mapping
all the roles are there just not exposed as aria standard roles
RS: why don't we break - add a proposal and people can weigh in
on the 1.2 release
had other things in the 2.0 release too - what else is critical
MK: may also look at what 1.3 may include and get people
focussed on that
maybe 1.2 in 2017, 1.3 in ....
RS: lets have that discussion this PM
CLP: want to bring up the process thing. have tasks in process
and then move between sections
<jcraig> The "HTML Role Parity" is also for test tools, like
the Accessibility Node panel in WebKit Inspector, or the Chrome
Accessibility extension (cc ABoxhall), or Microsoft's F12 Dev
Tools (cc JoshJansen)
there is a lead assigned - with dates and tasks etc. then would
be able to have a visualization as to where things are so can
get things forward
JC: the churn doesn't happen in the spec but in github
there are even tags for sections of features
RS: need to figure out what we are working on
JC: if something is ready put it in.....
<mhakkinen> FYI… Press release from W3C on TPAC. ARIA gets a
mention! [11]https://www.w3.org/2016/09/tpac2016.html.en
[11] https://www.w3.org/2016/09/tpac2016.html.en
<richardschwerdtfeger>
[12]https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/wiki/ARIA_2.0_Issue_Triage
[12] https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/wiki/ARIA_2.0_Issue_Triage
<Lisa_Seeman> Scribe:Lisa_Seeman
Triage
rich: lets identify what we cant live without, and priortise
cant live without: html parity
<richardschwerdtfeger> s/treage/triage/
<janina>
Handle multiple role values: may have been dealt with
allow properties to be accessed as DOM properties -that is aom
james n to add this to the issue
Support selectors is also aom
Get computed role or name also aom
(selectors can be aom as well)
Role extensibility
matt: wasnt this extensibility
what we were dealing with
rich: yes bit non urgent for now
non argent: State and property extensibility
assign ARIA semantics and event handlers
support CURIE
handle disabled script
control patterns
is aom
and extentsality (matt)
so that is 2.0
non urgent forward compatibility
getting adressed now host language default mappings
issue 55 is being done now
(aria 1.2 bucket)
sync similar attributes from host language and ARIA
joanie: nwhy is this not part pof parity
JamesN: this is browser syncing real time. it should be closed
janina: worht a discussion later
conclusion 2.0 bucket
<janina>
matt can we get rid of aria hidden in the long term
as a 2.0
for later discussion
next tell author what is host language role (ISSUE-467 is aom
full xlink behavior in link role
(this is svg)
2.0
input types is 1.2
SVG stuff is 2.0
( provide SVG implementation guide (ISSUE-339) (now under way)
navigational landmark labeling (ISSUE-341) shadow trees
(ISSUE-342))
Allow AT to modify DOM (ISSUE-461) and
Semantic zoom (ISSUE-469) is 2.0
Refine AT requirement
joanie: we cant use must anyway
i like shoulds
for screen readers
Matt: james also likes should, but when there is nothing about
at it is not good for them
close ISSUE-525)
<trackbot> Closed ISSUE-525.
Provide error handling guidance -
joanie: i is hard to do reliably
all bets are off
for AT
Matt: this is not a dsingle issue
so it is 2.0
create AT conformance requirements 2.0
michael: it would be better if at had conformance
it should stay on the table
rich: so 2.0
jcraig: is the a example of a must for all AT always that we
are not doing
rich: example from leonie, the statis that is is currwnt at the
end of the string
every: but that is a user prefrence not a must
(everyone)
matt: must for at - what is that, that an at conformas?
(aom is accessible object model thign that james showed us)
michael: password role. and that was the problem
so we should look at it for 2.0
2.0
richardschwerdtfeger: 1045 just opened
it's won buckety?
will be prototypes for now
mhakkinen: will prototype
we dont know it might be 1.2, if at all
richardschwerdtfeger: aria-activedescendant we have
lets close
close ISSUE-560)
<trackbot> Closed ISSUE-560.
<janina>
implicit aria-level in treeitem is realy hard
james AOM will make it easier
Michal should re retag thisng for aom
close ISSUE-612)
<trackbot> Closed ISSUE-612.
Datatypes and formatters (issue 51)
<jcraig> ISSUE-51?
<trackbot> ISSUE-51 -- How should we address the issue of
datatypes and formatters in ARIA? -- open
<trackbot> [13]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/51
[13] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/51
richardschwerdtfeger: are we doing this somewhere
coga should look at it
<janina> scribe: janina
rs: Closing issue-51
issue-406?
<trackbot> issue-406 -- Proposal for new aria-hint property.
(Previously proposed as @aria-help) -- open
<trackbot> [14]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/406
[14] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/406
<Lisa_Seeman_> scribe lisa_seeman_
<Lisa_Seeman_> rich: we pushed this off
<Lisa_Seeman_> micheale: it helps meet a sc in wcag
<Lisa_Seeman> Matt howle space ff mapping error messages
<Lisa_Seeman> depends on the ui
<Lisa_Seeman> guidnece to at?
<Lisa_Seeman> rich: we have details decribed by and more
<Lisa_Seeman> mat: room for more
<Lisa_Seeman> Lisa: coga has this one. we just need to check we
cover this use caase too
<Lisa_Seeman> 2.0
<Lisa_Seeman> ric 2.0
<Lisa_Seeman> richardschwerdtfeger: Input hints (ISSUE-406)
<Lisa_Seeman> what is this?
<Lisa_Seeman> 2.0
<Lisa_Seeman> lisa: can we tag it as coga
<Lisa_Seeman> michael: bad process -
<Lisa_Seeman> button types (ISSUE-1)
<Lisa_Seeman> !!!
<jcraig> issue-1
<trackbot> issue-1 -- Add button types to post 1.0 ARIA --
raised
<trackbot> [15]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1
[15] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1
<Lisa_Seeman> lisa: coga might want it
<Lisa_Seeman> jamesk: take by case by case as they come
<Lisa_Seeman> rich close it
<Lisa_Seeman> close ISSUE-1)
<trackbot> Closed ISSUE-1.
<Lisa_Seeman> Default button (ISSUE-624)
<jcraig> issue-624?
<trackbot> issue-624 -- Primary Action Concept -- open
<trackbot> [16]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/624
[16] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/624
<Lisa_Seeman> Lisa: this all ovelaps with coga
<Lisa_Seeman> matt is this scoping
<Lisa_Seeman> jason: if it the defualt for a compnent do we
need the scope definded
<Lisa_Seeman> maybe limit to dialig
<Lisa_Seeman> AT users dont know how to get it, low value
<Lisa_Seeman> james K : i thought this was an event. we should
change the name
<Lisa_Seeman> could be a sub role
<Lisa_Seeman> jonie: can the roles change in runtype
<Lisa_Seeman> james: yes
<Lisa_Seeman> Lisa: ug
<Lisa_Seeman> we should keep it
<Lisa_Seeman> (james N)
<Lisa_Seeman> jcraig: Mozilla had it as an proposed attribute
on HTML:button [default?]
<Lisa_Seeman> jason: if it getis into an html spec it becomes a
parity issue
<Lisa_Seeman> 2.0
<Lisa_Seeman> Keyboard help (ISSUE-631)
<Lisa_Seeman> rich: non critical
<Lisa_Seeman> jamesK: isnt this result
<Lisa_Seeman> (sorry jcraig )
<Lisa_Seeman> matt this is like aria help
<Lisa_Seeman> rich but we have in aria 1.1
<Lisa_Seeman> mat: but that is same bucket but not the same
<Lisa_Seeman> jason: not quite the same. binding mnemonics
<Lisa_Seeman> tyope tings
<Lisa_Seeman> james:
<Lisa_Seeman> jcraig: i do not intent to block aria shortcuts
but
<Lisa_Seeman> it is bad
<Lisa_Seeman> keybords in diffrent locals shift
<Lisa_Seeman> googles can solve for locals
<Lisa_Seeman> but no oe else will
<Lisa_Seeman> we dont even understand it
<Lisa_Seeman> matt: we get it but not this issues
<Lisa_Seeman> jcraig: it is bad for aria cleaness
<Lisa_Seeman> jamesn: it is only documenting what people do
today
<Lisa_Seeman> if i hacve it dosumented in a help or in our
shortcuts, it is wrong anyway
<Lisa_Seeman> jcraig: it is exposed anyway
<Lisa_Seeman> jamesn: it is only documenting what
<Lisa_Seeman> we do anyway
<Lisa_Seeman> matt: all at have a shortcut to find the short
catt, and that depends on the native property
<Zakim> joanie, you wanted to say this F.S. "help" request is
tutorial messages for the focused item
<Lisa_Seeman> add jponie to the que
<joanie>
[17]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/update?comment_id=
363
[17] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/update?comment_id=363
<Lisa_Seeman> jonie: freedom these are not mnomics, these are
mnemonic keys
<Lisa_Seeman> they are specificly for AT and should not be here
<Lisa_Seeman> jamesn: doesnt discribe override
<Lisa_Seeman> andthen u have two things
<Lisa_Seeman> lisa: codinate with coga personlisation
<Lisa_Seeman> janina: can we move to 2.0
<Lisa_Seeman> jcraig: we have api that is closer to AT wants
but not specific for keyboards- we would need an event model
backing the help
<Lisa_Seeman> matt: extecibility bucket?
<Lisa_Seeman> jamesn: need to know the model for support. if ti
is the event model it is more like controls
<MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
rich text editing (issue-92) leave to web platform; close
<jcraig> issue-104
<trackbot> issue-104 -- how to communicate form autosubmissions
to a user -- raised
<trackbot> [18]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/104
[18] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/104
close
<jcraig> close issue-104
<trackbot> Closed issue-104.
<jcraig> issue-384
<trackbot> Sorry, but issue-384 does not exist.
issue-381
<trackbot> issue-381 -- Keyboard support across platfroms --
raised
<trackbot> [19]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/381
[19] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/381
<jcraig> related issue-352?
<jcraig> issue-352?
<trackbot> issue-352 -- Address device independent interaction
with widgets -- open
<trackbot> [20]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/352
[20] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/352
mck: this is an author concern
not for ARIA to solve common keyboard
close
issue-639
<trackbot> issue-639 -- Making key events work automatically on
focusable elements matching certain roles (e.g. button, link,
checkbox), that have click event handlers -- open
<trackbot> [21]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/639
[21] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/639
jn: nice in principle but too many places it would break things
close
jc: @@
issue-349
<trackbot> issue-349 -- Specify actionable elements -- raised
<trackbot> [22]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/349
[22] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/349
rs: leave open
mck: isn´t this related to @@?
issue-445
<trackbot> issue-445 -- Support Control Patterns in ARIA --
raised
<trackbot> [23]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/445
[23] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/445
jc: these two are related
jn: this was to address older AAPIs that didn´t know how to
address aria-sort
close 349
jc: 445 is WAPA
rs: leave that one open
for now
issue-569
<trackbot> issue-569 -- Introduce an ARIA attribute to indicate
a column is sorted -- open
<trackbot> [24]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/569
[24] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/569
jc: sortability @@
jn: multiple arrows show sort on multiple columns
this isn´t important, AT could get the info
close
issue-96
<trackbot> issue-96 -- Add ability to indicate sort by multiple
columns with precedence information -- raised
<trackbot> [25]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/96
[25] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/96
<jcraig> close issue-569
<trackbot> Closed issue-569.
mck: you can indicate multiple items as sorted
just hard to figure out what is sorted where
leave open
issue-524
<trackbot> issue-524 -- Consider expressing the "sortability"
along with the actual sort - ARIA 2.0 -- raised
<trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/524
[26] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/524
something we want, though not right away
leave open
issue-603
<trackbot> issue-603 -- Need an attr to indicate element
activation triggers audio, video, etc. -- open
<trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/603
[27] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/603
jc: control to help @@
can have voiceover still talking when starts playing
rs: leave for later
issue-634
<trackbot> issue-634 -- Video and audio roles (simple groups,
not full functionality apis) -- open
<trackbot> [28]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/634
[28] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/634
issue-347
<trackbot> issue-347 -- Investigate adding audio and video
element support -- raised
<trackbot> [29]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/347
[29] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/347
rs: could fit into HTML parity
ok, 1.2
closing the dup
issue-519
<trackbot> issue-519 -- Consider removing aria-level from grid
(already allowed on row) -- open
<trackbot> [30]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/519
[30] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/519
mck: only in treegrid
jc: allowed on row
in treegrid, but should not be on grid
essentially errata, not priority
rs: for 2.0
issue-337
<trackbot> issue-337 -- Explore whether to have expandable
columns (not just rows) -- raised
<trackbot> [31]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/337
[31] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/337
rs: for 2.0
issue-671
<trackbot> Sorry, but issue-671 does not exist.
issue-371
<trackbot> issue-371 -- Need equivalent for thead, tfoot, and
tbody -- raised
<trackbot> [32]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/371
[32] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/371
rs: move to 1.2
issue-611
<trackbot> issue-611 -- Support Pivot Table functionality in
ARIA -- raised
<trackbot> [33]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/611
[33] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/611
jc: don´t need special roles
just use rowgroup
rs: don´t we want explict mapping to the HTML roles
jc: mappings can cover it without new roles
this dups parity
rs: close
let´s file an issue for HTML parity
issue-1046
<trackbot> issue-1046 -- HTML Parity -- raised
<trackbot> [34]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1046
[34] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1046
issue-593
<trackbot> issue-593 -- Reflect the fact that browsers are now
exposing child content for things like sliders, separators,
scrollbars (childrenarepresentational) -- open
<trackbot> [35]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/593
[35] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/593
rs: close, dup
or OBE
issue-351
<trackbot> issue-351 -- Address unbounded numerical values with
author specified increments -- raised
<trackbot> [36]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/351
[36] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/351
issue-718
<trackbot> issue-718 -- Need to allow scrollbars to specify an
unknown value for aria-valuemax -- raised
<trackbot> [37]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/718
[37] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/718
jn, jd: think we addressed
jn: think can close
jd: horse died months ago
rs: close these
issue-539
<trackbot> issue-539 -- aria-valuestep -- raised
<trackbot> [38]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/539
[38] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/539
rs: needed
jc: HTML parity anyways
rs: 1.2
issue-1027
<trackbot> issue-1027 -- Introduce an aria-valuestep property
for range widgets such as a slider -- open
<trackbot> [39]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1027
[39] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1027
dup of 539
issue-411
<trackbot> issue-411 -- Consider aria-description which would
take a string like aria-label -- open
<trackbot> [40]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/411
[40] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/411
rs: <has a heart attack>
we´ve done what we´re gonna do
close
issue-437
<trackbot> issue-437 -- Text alternative computation likely to
need clarification for HTML5 -- raised
<trackbot> [41]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/437
[41] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/437
mc: move to HTML-AAM
MICHAEL REMEMBER TO MOVE THIS TO HTML ISSUE TRACKER
issue-360
<trackbot> issue-360 -- Text equivalents in SVG -- raised
<trackbot> [42]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/360
[42] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/360
rs: OBE, close
issue-470
<trackbot> issue-470 -- We need a caret role for cloud based
editors -- open
<trackbot> [43]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/470
[43] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/470
mck: close with rich text editing
rs: this came from canvas
let´s see what ¨they¨ figure out
afraid it will get raised again
mck: let it, but close for now
jc: we don´t represent caret in AOM
rs: close
issue-468
<trackbot> issue-468 -- Create ARIA role for figure or other
image groups (including SVG) -- open
<trackbot> [44]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/468
[44] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/468
rs: done
issue-655
<trackbot> issue-655 -- Consider creating annotations roles for
comments, spell-check errors, etc -- open
<trackbot> [45]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/655
[45] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/655
mc: do we need this? there is a spec
rs: not sure what we need
let´s leave open for now
issue-685
<trackbot> issue-685 -- Creation of resource definitions for
localized state information -- open
<trackbot> [46]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/685
[46] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/685
mh: we do want this
jgw: would like to do in >1.2 <2.0
issue-742
<trackbot> issue-742 -- Introduce the ability to provide the
destination context of a link -- open
<trackbot> [47]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/742
[47] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/742
rs: personalization semantics
<mgylling> is coga and dpub doing link destinations the same
way?
mg: thought there were dpub requirements
tz: roles like noteref etc.
mg: ok, so covered, can close
rs: close
issue-29
<trackbot> issue-29 -- Express media types in which roles
allowed -- raised
<trackbot> [48]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/29
[48] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/29
rs: covered by other issue
issue-118
<trackbot> issue-118 -- identify objects that are moveable
(such as the split pane separator) -- raised
<trackbot> [49]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/118
[49] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/118
jc: for 2.0
<David_macdonald> Test
<David_macdonald> Issue 118 identify objects... leave ooen
<David_macdonald> Scribe: david_macdonald
Close 434 issue
Issue 1036
Leave 1036 open
For issue 335 bread rubs, good idea ...put to 1.2
S/rubs/crumbs
Move to 1.2
For issue 340, scrollable regions
Can be done with css mapping spec,
RS previous lines above
PUNT ISSUE 340 to CSS mapping
For issue 361 HTML <p><em> will all go to HTML parity 1046
For issue 425 css name computation... modalities other than
screen modalities... one accessible name for one modality and
another name for another modality
Move to 2.0
For issue 536 aria discoverable... close it
For Issue 567 css generated content, punt to CSS task force
For issue 660, implicit labels for region headings OBE because
a label is not required on a region
Issue 667 page title role, could be in 1.2 for parity with HTML
also... this exists in dpub
<MichaelC> [50]https://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-aria-1.0/
[50] https://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-aria-1.0/
Move issue 667 to 1.2
For issue 670 leave there
FOR ISSUE 1022 this is a 1.2 issue
FOR ISSUE 1035, do we need extra roles and properties for
complex than tree widgets
MK. Punt to 2.0
FOR issue 463
Asking for more hidden... punt to aria 2
FOR ISSUE 466
clearly defined weak roles... leave as is
FOR ISSUE 494 says menu is a form control
Not a valid concern because menu is an abstract widget role
Punt 503
Move from triage to James presentatijon
<mhakkinen> LInk to University of Colorado PHET Science
Simulation Task: Balloons and Static:
[51]http://www.colorado.edu/physics/phet/dev/html/balloons-and-
static-electricity/1.2.0-reader.5/balloons-and-static-electrici
ty_en.html
[51] http://www.colorado.edu/physics/phet/dev/html/balloons-and-static-electricity/1.2.0-reader.5/balloons-and-static-electricity_en.html
I MS task force a responsible for 3 inaction types. The
question arise does aria fit well to describe various widgets.
Some users would like more extensibility for aria, not
restricted to educational setting
Peter is a list type widgets where you are supposed to reorder
the list as in a test
Interaction type, user has to establish relationship between
two characters...
S/Peter/ There
THERE Are widgets being developed but it would be highly useful
to developers these
, written to support keyboard interaction
RS: can you start writing a puse cases for these
MARC.. WANT TO MIGRATE question and test ov3r there.
Jw: users of Dragon doing drao0g and drop
SEARCHING THIS AND WILL BRING IT TO GROUP WHEN research is
compkete
<mhakkinen> S/MARC/Mark
SEARCHING THIS AND WILL BRING IT TO GROUP WHEN research is
complete
JW: Ballon exercises with static electricity. THEY USED ARIA
LIVE REGIONS AND ARIA-describedby
Can move the ball on with arrow keys... used book be Flash but
moving to SVG
You can do a lot of work but it's not very friendly across
input type using currently the aria
We need to think carefully about how these types of inputs..
One direction of the research is molly modal using voice XML
application, haptic or tactile graohs
Sions of ARIA
THÈRE ARE two approaches and the seconds could have
implications for proposals
To the next version of WCAG.
No meeting next week
RESOLUTION: No WAI ARIA meeting next week
Summary of Action Items
Summary of Resolutions
1. [52]No WAI ARIA meeting next week
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
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1.144 ([54]CVS log)
$Date: 2016/09/23 15:44:01 $
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ScribeNicks: MichaelC, joanie, janina, jnurthen, Lisa_Seeman, David_macd
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Present: Charles_LaPierre Romain_Deltour jesse Joanmarie_Diggs Janina Ha
dley Peter Linss MichaelC
Agenda: [56]https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2016
Found Date: 23 Sep 2016
Guessing minutes URL: [57]http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-aria-minutes.html
People with action items:
[56] https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2016
[57] http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-aria-minutes.html
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Received on Friday, 23 September 2016 15:45:22 UTC