W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-aria@w3.org > February 2016

RE: grids vs sortable tables

From: Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 16:17:51 -0500
Bryan,

I get the general gist. Having interactive th elements doesn't make a table
a grid.  Which types of interactivity inside a cell would make a table a
grid? And which types of interactivity does not? If your table contained
links would that qualify as a grid?  A link is focusable and interactive,
but I wouldn't think links inside a table would make it a grid.

Perhaps there are qualifiers I am not aware of that make something a grid.
Perhaps the ability to delete or add rows. Is there a list of conditions
for a grid?
                                                              
     Regards,                                                 
                                                              
    Fred Esch                                                 
 Watson, IBM, W3C                                             
  Accessibility                                               
                                                              
 IBM Watson       Watson Release Management and Quality       
                                                              






From:	Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
To:	Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, Fred
            Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS
Cc:	Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>, "Accessible Rich Internet
            Applications Working Group" <public-aria@w3.org>
Date:	02/08/2016 03:57 PM
Subject:	RE: grids vs sortable tables



That’s true, that in a Grid the cells are meant to be interactive, in the
sense that they are focusable and the user then needs to use the arrow keys
to navigate between the cells of the Grid construct.

This doesn’t necessarily mean that they are editable however, just that
they are meant to be focusable and interactive.

This is major overkill for a standard data table that includes sortable
columns, because the table is not meant to be interactive like this. It is
simply a static markup structure, and little scripting needs to be done to
make something like this accessible.

If you use role=”grid” you are changing the paradigm of what is expected,
and that is very confusing for AT users when misapplied on standard data
tables.

From: Steve Faulkner [mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2016 12:41 PM
To: Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com>
Cc: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>; Matt King
<a11ythinker@gmail.com>; Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working
Group <public-aria@w3.org>
Subject: Re: grids vs sortable tables

>I don't understand the split between a grid and >a table.

I believe the difference Is that grid contains editable cells a table does
not. Using a role of grid may result in Screen readers providing a
different navigation/interaction behaviour.

On Monday, 8 February 2016, Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com> wrote:


 Bryan,

 Why didn't you use the role of grid on the table? I don't understand the
 split between a grid and a table. If a table is static and a grid is
 editable - which side of the fence does that leave sortable tables on? The
 table side (data isn't changing, just the display changes) or grid side
 (it is interactive and the table apparently changes)? Originally, I
 brought this up because of the sortable/sorted attributes (which are going
 away) on table and th elements respectively. And I wonder whether the
 split between the two roles will be readily understood by developers.

 Would button be a better role for the contents (span) of the sortable th
 than the suggested link role?

 JAWS with Firefox and NVDA with Chrome will announce that the first column
 is sorted ascending. I don't hear columns with aria-sort and value of '
 none' announced as being sortable. How does a user know that they can sort
 by the other columns?




                                                     
     Regards,                                        
                                                     
    Fred Esch                                        
 Watson, IBM, W3C                                    
  Accessibility                                      
                                                     
 IBM Watson       Watson Release Management and      
                  Quality                            
                                                     




 Inactive hide details for Bryan Garaventa ---02/05/2016 01:27:28 PM---Hi,
 I’ve attached a modified markup of your table, whichBryan Garaventa
 ---02/05/2016 01:27:28 PM---Hi, I’ve attached a modified markup of your
 table, which shows where ARIA is needed to make this acc

 From: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
 To: Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS, Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>
 Cc: "'Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group'" <
 public-aria@w3.org>
 Date: 02/05/2016 01:27 PM
 Subject: RE: grids vs sortable tables




 Hi,
 I’ve attached a modified markup of your table, which shows where ARIA is
 needed to make this accessible.

 There are several issues here, not just with the column header
 announcement using aria-sort, which is lacking, but also that the sortable
 active elements needed to invoke the sort action are not keyboard
 accessible nor do they have active element roles to be conveyed to ATs.

 So I added not just aria-sort where needed but also role=”link” and
 tabindex where needed to be scripted in with requisite key events to make
 this work properly.




 From: Fred Esch [mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com]
 Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2016 4:37 AM
 To: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>; Matt King <
 a11ythinker@gmail.com>
 Cc: 'Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group' <
 public-aria@w3.org>
 Subject: RE: grids vs sortable tables


 Bryan,

 I found a working ng-table example online. I also am attaching a screen
 scraped table that may use some ng-table functionality, but differs from
 the pure ng-table example in that the data portion of the table is
 generated with ng-repeat. I cut down some class names, don't include the
 JavaScript or CSS files and wrapped the table in a plain HTML file so the
 table will render in a browser, but without CSS it is ugly and without
 JavaScript the sort isn't functional.

 The working example should provide any ng-table specific info you need.
 (See attached file: table.html)


                                              
     Regards,                                 
                                              
    Fred Esch                                 
 Watson, IBM, W3C                             
  Accessibility                               
                                              
 IBM Watson       Watson Release Management   
                  and Quality                 
                                              




 Inactive hide details for Bryan Garaventa ---02/03/2016 06:56:27 PM---If
 you could do that and send this through as a txt file Bryan Garaventa
 ---02/03/2016 06:56:27 PM---If you could do that and send this through as
 a txt file that would help, knowing the structure is t

 From: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
 To: Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS
 Cc: Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>, "'W3C WAI Accessible Platform
 Architectures'" <public-apa@w3.org>, "'Accessible Rich Internet
 Applications Working Group'" <public-aria@w3.org>
 Date: 02/03/2016 06:56 PM
 Subject: RE: grids vs sortable tables





 If you could do that and send this through as a txt file that would help,
 knowing the structure is the best way to identify the most common
 potential issues.

 From: Fred Esch [mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com]
 Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2016 1:39 PM
 To: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
 Cc: Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>; 'W3C WAI Accessible Platform
 Architectures' <public-apa@w3.org>; 'Accessible Rich Internet Applications
 Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
 Subject: RE: grids vs sortable tables


 Bryan,

 I can't point to a live example. Most of the issues I run across are in
 products that are a few months from going out the door. The best I can do
 is screen scape the DOM.


                                              
     Regards,                                 
                                              
    Fred Esch                                 
 Watson, IBM, W3C                             
  Accessibility                               
                                              
 IBM Watson       Watson Release Management   
                  and Quality                 
                                              




 Inactive hide details for Bryan Garaventa ---02/03/2016 11:49:31 AM---Can
 you point to a live example of this? Thanks,Bryan Garaventa ---02/03/2016
 11:49:31 AM---Can you point to a live example of this? Thanks,

 From: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
 To: Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS
 Cc: Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>, "'W3C WAI Accessible Platform
 Architectures'" <public-apa@w3.org>, "'Accessible Rich Internet
 Applications Working Group'" <public-aria@w3.org>
 Date: 02/03/2016 11:49 AM
 Subject: RE: grids vs sortable tables






 Can you point to a live example of this?
 Thanks,
 Bryan

 From: Fred Esch [mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com]
 Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2016 5:57 AM
 To: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
 Cc: Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>; 'W3C WAI Accessible Platform
 Architectures' <public-apa@w3.org>; 'Accessible Rich Internet Applications
 Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
 Subject: RE: grids vs sortable tables


 Bryan and Matt,

 What all do you recommend for a structure for a sortable table. Is there
 an ideal example? If you were looking at fixing a widely used library and
 donating back the fix, what you want the widely used sortable table to
 look like? For instance, if you were looking at angularJS's ng-table what
 you want changed?


                                                            
     Regards,                                               
                                                            
    Fred Esch                                               
 Watson, IBM, W3C                                           
  Accessibility                                             
                                                            
 IBM Watson       Watson Release Management and Quality     
                                                            




 Inactive hide details for Bryan Garaventa ---02/02/2016 12:57:22 PM---It
 should still be possible to do something like the follBryan Garaventa
 ---02/02/2016 12:57:22 PM---It should still be possible to do something
 like the following. <table>

 From: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
 To: Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS, Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>
 Cc: "'W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures'" <public-apa@w3.org>,
 "'Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group'" <
 public-aria@w3.org>
 Date: 02/02/2016 12:57 PM
 Subject: RE: grids vs sortable tables







 It should still be possible to do something like the following.

 <table>
 <tr>
 <th aria-sort="ascending">
 <a href="#"> Name </a>
 </th>
 <th aria-sort="none">
 <a href="#"> Email </a>
 </th>
 </tr>
 <tr>
 <td>
 Twoflower
 </td>
 <td>
 Inn-sewer-ants@discworld.com
 </td>
 </tr>
 </table>

 Or the same using its equivalent role=”table” on a simulated construct.
 This is documented in the ARIA 1.1 spec for use with both tables and
 grids.



 From: Fred Esch [mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com]
 Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 5:46 AM
 To: Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>
 Cc: 'W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures' <public-apa@w3.org>;
 'Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
 Subject: RE: grids vs sortable tables


 Matt,

 I assumed the table sortable attribute and the th sorted attributes were
 passed on to AT. I assumed that when a sorted state was announced, the
 user would know that you could sort on that column - using the mouse or
 enter key. I didn't know the HTML attributes were going away.

 Deque's sortable table example uses role of grid and aria-sort on the th
 elements aria-sort='none' when it is sortable but not sorted by that
 column. I would suggest making an W3C example for sortable tables since
 the current HTML spec can cause confusion between grids and tables.


                                                            
     Regards,                                               
                                                            
    Fred Esch                                               
 Watson, IBM, W3C                                           
  Accessibility                                             
                                                            
 IBM Watson       Watson Release Management and Quality     
                                                            




 Inactive hide details for Matt King ---02/01/2016 02:49:12 PM---Fred,Matt
 King ---02/01/2016 02:49:12 PM---Fred,

 From: Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>
 To: Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS, "'Steve Faulkner'" <
 faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
 Cc: "'Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group'" <
 public-aria@w3.org>, "'W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures'" <
 public-apa@w3.org>
 Date: 02/01/2016 02:49 PM
 Subject: RE: grids vs sortable tables








 Fred,

 Is it necessary to have a property on the table to tell the user that a
 particular TH inside that table contains an interactive element for
 sorting that column?

 Matt

 From: Fred Esch [mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com]
 Sent: Monday, February 1, 2016 9:57 AM
 To: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
 Cc: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group <
 public-aria@w3.org>; W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures <
 public-apa@w3.org>
 Subject: Re: grids vs sortable tables


 Steve,

 There are sortable tables being used in the wild, for example angularJS's
 ng-table. How are developers supposed to tell AT users that a table is
 sortable and a column can be sorted if the sortable and sorted properties
 are removed?

 Sortable tables are important for accessibility as they are often used as
 an accessible alternative to charts. Even when you can make a chart
 accessible, when you a huge number of data rows - you want a better way
 for an AT user to find the max/min values than walking all the data
 members. For instance, providing a sortable table will be more usable than
 having an accessible bar chart and forcing an AT user to walk 200 bars to
 find the top five bars. Personally, if I had to get the top five values
 from a huge bar chart I would prefer a sortable table as well.


                                                            
     Regards,                                               
                                                            
    Fred Esch                                               
 Watson, IBM, W3C                                           
  Accessibility                                             
                                                            
 IBM Watson       Watson Release Management and Quality     
                                                            




 Inactive hide details for Steve Faulkner ---01/29/2016 04:58:04 PM---On 29
 January 2016 at 20:07, Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com> Steve Faulkner
 ---01/29/2016 04:58:04 PM---On 29 January 2016 at 20:07, Fred Esch <
 fesch@us.ibm.com> wrote: > A table element can have a *'sort

 From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
 To: Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS
 Cc: Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>, Accessible Rich Internet
 Applications Working Group <public-aria@w3.org>
 Date: 01/29/2016 04:58 PM
 Subject: Re: grids vs sortable tables










 On 29 January 2016 at 20:07, Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com> wrote:
                                           A table element can have a
                                           'sortable' attribute which
                                           designates you can sort on
                                           columns.


 note the table sorting algorithm and associated attribute have been
 removed from the whatwg HTML spec due to a lack of implementer interest
 and suggest the same fate will befall this feature in W3C HTML, sooner
 rather than later.

 --

 Regards

 SteveF
 Current Standards Work @W3C(See attached file: table.html)



--
--

Regards

SteveF
Current Standards Work @W3C



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