Re: grids vs sortable tables

>I don't understand the split between a *grid* and >a* table*.

I believe the difference Is that grid contains editable cells a table does
not. Using a role of grid may result in Screen readers providing a
different navigation/interaction behaviour.

On Monday, 8 February 2016, Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com> wrote:

> Bryan,
>
> Why didn't you use the role of *grid* on the table? I don't understand
> the split between a *grid* and a* table*. If a table is static and a grid
> is editable - which side of the fence does that leave sortable tables on?
> The table side (data isn't changing, just the display changes) or grid side
> (it is interactive and the table apparently changes)? Originally, I brought
> this up because of the sortable/sorted attributes (which are going away) on
> table and th elements respectively. And I wonder whether the split between
> the two roles will be readily understood by developers.
>
> Would *button* be a better role for the contents (span) of the sortable*
> th* than the suggested *link* role?
>
> JAWS with Firefox and NVDA with Chrome will announce that the first column
> is sorted ascending. I don't hear columns with *aria-sort* and value of
> *'**none'* announced as being sortable. How does a user know that they
> can sort by the other columns?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Fred Esch
> Watson, IBM, W3C Accessibility
> [image: IBM Watson] Watson Release Management and Quality
>
> [image: Inactive hide details for Bryan Garaventa ---02/05/2016 01:27:28
> PM---Hi, I’ve attached a modified markup of your table, which]Bryan
> Garaventa ---02/05/2016 01:27:28 PM---Hi, I’ve attached a modified markup
> of your table, which shows where ARIA is needed to make this acc
>
> From: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com');>>
> To: Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS, Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','a11ythinker@gmail.com');>>
> Cc: "'Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group'" <
> public-aria@w3.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','public-aria@w3.org');>>
> Date: 02/05/2016 01:27 PM
> Subject: RE: grids vs sortable tables
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Hi,
> I’ve attached a modified markup of your table, which shows where ARIA is
> needed to make this accessible.
>
> There are several issues here, not just with the column header
> announcement using aria-sort, which is lacking, but also that the sortable
> active elements needed to invoke the sort action are not keyboard
> accessible nor do they have active element roles to be conveyed to ATs.
>
> So I added not just aria-sort where needed but also role=”link” and
> tabindex where needed to be scripted in with requisite key events to make
> this work properly.
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Fred Esch [mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','fesch@us.ibm.com');>]
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 04, 2016 4:37 AM
> *To:* Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com');>>; Matt
> King <a11ythinker@gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','a11ythinker@gmail.com');>>
> *Cc:* 'Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group' <
> public-aria@w3.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','public-aria@w3.org');>>
> *Subject:* RE: grids vs sortable tables
>
> Bryan,
>
> I found a working* ng-table example* <http://ng-table.com/#/> online. I
> also am attaching a screen scraped table that may use some ng-table
> functionality, but differs from the pure ng-table example in that the data
> portion of the table is generated with ng-repeat. I cut down some class
> names, don't include the JavaScript or CSS files and wrapped the table in a
> plain HTML file so the table will render in a browser, but without CSS it
> is ugly and without JavaScript the sort isn't functional.
>
> The working example should provide any ng-table specific info you need.
> *(See attached file: table.html)*
>
> Regards,
>
> Fred Esch
> Watson, IBM, W3C Accessibility
> [image: IBM Watson] Watson Release Management and Quality
>
> [image: Inactive hide details for Bryan Garaventa ---02/03/2016 06:56:27
> PM---If you could do that and send this through as a txt file]Bryan
> Garaventa ---02/03/2016 06:56:27 PM---If you could do that and send this
> through as a txt file that would help, knowing the structure is t
>
> From: Bryan Garaventa <*bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com');>>
> To: Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS
> Cc: Matt King <*a11ythinker@gmail.com*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','a11ythinker@gmail.com');>>, "'W3C WAI
> Accessible Platform Architectures'" <*public-apa@w3.org*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','public-apa@w3.org');>>, "'Accessible Rich
> Internet Applications Working Group'" <*public-aria@w3.org*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','public-aria@w3.org');>>
> Date: 02/03/2016 06:56 PM
> Subject: RE: grids vs sortable tables
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> If you could do that and send this through as a txt file that would help,
> knowing the structure is the best way to identify the most common potential
> issues.
>
> *From:* Fred Esch [*mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','fesch@us.ibm.com');>]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 03, 2016 1:39 PM
> *To:* Bryan Garaventa <*bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com');>>
> *Cc:* Matt King <*a11ythinker@gmail.com*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','a11ythinker@gmail.com');>>; 'W3C WAI
> Accessible Platform Architectures' <*public-apa@w3.org*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','public-apa@w3.org');>>; 'Accessible Rich
> Internet Applications Working Group' <*public-aria@w3.org*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','public-aria@w3.org');>>
> *Subject:* RE: grids vs sortable tables
>
> Bryan,
>
> I can't point to a live example. Most of the issues I run across are in
> products that are a few months from going out the door. The best I can do
> is screen scape the DOM.
>
> Regards,
>
> Fred Esch
> Watson, IBM, W3C Accessibility
> [image: IBM Watson] Watson Release Management and Quality
>
> [image: Inactive hide details for Bryan Garaventa ---02/03/2016 11:49:31
> AM---Can you point to a live example of this? Thanks,]Bryan Garaventa
> ---02/03/2016 11:49:31 AM---Can you point to a live example of this? Thanks,
>
> From: Bryan Garaventa <*bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com');>>
> To: Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS
> Cc: Matt King <*a11ythinker@gmail.com*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','a11ythinker@gmail.com');>>, "'W3C WAI
> Accessible Platform Architectures'" <*public-apa@w3.org*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','public-apa@w3.org');>>, "'Accessible Rich
> Internet Applications Working Group'" <*public-aria@w3.org*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','public-aria@w3.org');>>
> Date: 02/03/2016 11:49 AM
> Subject: RE: grids vs sortable tables
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> Can you point to a live example of this?
> Thanks,
> Bryan
>
> *From:* Fred Esch [*mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','fesch@us.ibm.com');>]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 03, 2016 5:57 AM
> *To:* Bryan Garaventa <*bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com');>>
> *Cc:* Matt King <*a11ythinker@gmail.com*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','a11ythinker@gmail.com');>>; 'W3C WAI
> Accessible Platform Architectures' <*public-apa@w3.org*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','public-apa@w3.org');>>; 'Accessible Rich
> Internet Applications Working Group' <*public-aria@w3.org*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','public-aria@w3.org');>>
> *Subject:* RE: grids vs sortable tables
>
> Bryan and Matt,
>
> What all do you recommend for a structure for a sortable table. Is there
> an ideal example? If you were looking at fixing a widely used library and
> donating back the fix, what you want the widely used sortable table to look
> like? For instance, if you were looking at angularJS's ng-table what you
> want changed?
>
> Regards,
>
> Fred Esch
> Watson, IBM, W3C Accessibility
> [image: IBM Watson] Watson Release Management and Quality
>
> [image: Inactive hide details for Bryan Garaventa ---02/02/2016 12:57:22
> PM---It should still be possible to do something like the foll]Bryan
> Garaventa ---02/02/2016 12:57:22 PM---It should still be possible to do
> something like the following. <table>
>
> From: Bryan Garaventa <*bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com');>>
> To: Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS, Matt King <*a11ythinker@gmail.com*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','a11ythinker@gmail.com');>>
> Cc: "'W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures'" <*public-apa@w3.org*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','public-apa@w3.org');>>, "'Accessible Rich
> Internet Applications Working Group'" <*public-aria@w3.org*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','public-aria@w3.org');>>
> Date: 02/02/2016 12:57 PM
> Subject: RE: grids vs sortable tables
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It should still be possible to do something like the following.
>
> <table>
> <tr>
> <th aria-sort="ascending">
> <a href="#"> Name </a>
> </th>
> <th aria-sort="none">
> <a href="#"> Email </a>
> </th>
> </tr>
> <tr>
> <td>
> Twoflower
> </td>
> <td>
> *Inn-sewer-ants@discworld.com*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Inn-sewer-ants@discworld.com');>
> </td>
> </tr>
> </table>
>
> Or the same using its equivalent role=”table” on a simulated construct.
> This is documented in the ARIA 1.1 spec for use with both tables and grids.
>
>
>
> *From:* Fred Esch [*mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','fesch@us.ibm.com');>]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 02, 2016 5:46 AM
> *To:* Matt King <*a11ythinker@gmail.com*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','a11ythinker@gmail.com');>>
> *Cc:* 'W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures' <*public-apa@w3.org*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','public-apa@w3.org');>>; 'Accessible Rich
> Internet Applications Working Group' <*public-aria@w3.org*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','public-aria@w3.org');>>
> *Subject:* RE: grids vs sortable tables
>
> Matt,
>
> I assumed the table sortable attribute and the th sorted attributes were
> passed on to AT. I assumed that when a sorted state was announced, the user
> would know that you could sort on that column - using the mouse or enter
> key. I didn't know the HTML attributes were going away.
>
> *Deque's sortable table example*
> <https://dequeuniversity.com/library/aria/tables/sf-sortable-grid> uses
> role of grid and aria-sort on the th elements aria-sort='none' when it is
> sortable but not sorted by that column. I would suggest making an W3C
> example for sortable tables since the current HTML spec can cause confusion
> between grids and tables.
>
> Regards,
>
> Fred Esch
> Watson, IBM, W3C Accessibility
> [image: IBM Watson] Watson Release Management and Quality
>
> [image: Inactive hide details for Matt King ---02/01/2016 02:49:12
> PM---Fred,]Matt King ---02/01/2016 02:49:12 PM---Fred,
>
> From: Matt King <*a11ythinker@gmail.com*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','a11ythinker@gmail.com');>>
> To: Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS, "'Steve Faulkner'" <
> *faulkner.steve@gmail.com*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','faulkner.steve@gmail.com');>>
> Cc: "'Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group'" <
> *public-aria@w3.org* <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','public-aria@w3.org');>>,
> "'W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures'" <*public-apa@w3.org*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','public-apa@w3.org');>>
> Date: 02/01/2016 02:49 PM
> Subject: RE: grids vs sortable tables
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Fred,
>
> Is it necessary to have a property on the table to tell the user that a
> particular TH inside that table contains an interactive element for sorting
> that column?
>
> Matt
>
> *From:* Fred Esch [*mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','fesch@us.ibm.com');>]
> *Sent:* Monday, February 1, 2016 9:57 AM
> *To:* Steve Faulkner <*faulkner.steve@gmail.com*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','faulkner.steve@gmail.com');>>
> *Cc:* Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group <
> *public-aria@w3.org* <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','public-aria@w3.org');>>;
> W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures <*public-apa@w3.org*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','public-apa@w3.org');>>
> *Subject:* Re: grids vs sortable tables
>
> Steve,
>
> There are sortable tables being used in the wild, for example angularJS's
> ng-table. How are developers supposed to tell AT users that a table is
> sortable and a column can be sorted if the sortable and sorted properties
> are removed?
>
> Sortable tables are important for accessibility as they are often used as
> an accessible alternative to charts. Even when you can make a chart
> accessible, when you a huge number of data rows - you want a better way for
> an AT user to find the max/min values than walking all the data members.
> For instance, providing a sortable table will be more usable than having an
> accessible bar chart and forcing an AT user to walk 200 bars to find the
> top five bars. Personally, if I had to get the top five values from a huge
> bar chart I would prefer a sortable table as well.
>
> Regards,
>
> Fred Esch
> Watson, IBM, W3C Accessibility
> [image: IBM Watson] Watson Release Management and Quality
>
> [image: Inactive hide details for Steve Faulkner ---01/29/2016 04:58:04
> PM---On 29 January 2016 at 20:07, Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com>]Steve
> Faulkner ---01/29/2016 04:58:04 PM---On 29 January 2016 at 20:07, Fred Esch
> <*fesch@us.ibm.com* <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','fesch@us.ibm.com');>>
> wrote: > A table element can have a *'sort
>
> From: Steve Faulkner <*faulkner.steve@gmail.com*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','faulkner.steve@gmail.com');>>
> To: Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS
> Cc: Matt King <*a11ythinker@gmail.com*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','a11ythinker@gmail.com');>>, Accessible Rich
> Internet Applications Working Group <*public-aria@w3.org*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','public-aria@w3.org');>>
> Date: 01/29/2016 04:58 PM
> Subject: Re: grids vs sortable tables
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 29 January 2016 at 20:07, Fred Esch <*fesch@us.ibm.com*
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','fesch@us.ibm.com');>> wrote:
>
>    A table element can have a *'sortable'* attribute which designates you
>                                                                                                 can sort on columns.
>
>
>
> note the table sorting algorithm and associated attribute have been
> removed from the whatwg HTML spec due to a lack of implementer interest and
> suggest the same fate will befall this feature in W3C HTML, sooner rather
> than later.
>
> --
>
> Regards
>
> SteveF
> *Current Standards Work @W3C*
> <http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/03/current-standards-work-at-w3c/>*(See
> attached file: table.html)*
>
>
>

-- 
--

Regards

SteveF
Current Standards Work @W3C
<http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/03/current-standards-work-at-w3c/>