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RE: grids vs sortable tables

From: Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 07:36:32 -0500
Bryan,

I found a working ng-table example online.  I also am attaching a screen
scraped table that may use some ng-table functionality, but differs from
the pure ng-table example in that the data portion of the table is
generated with ng-repeat. I cut down some class names, don't include the
JavaScript or CSS files and wrapped the table in a plain HTML file so the
table will render in a browser, but without CSS it is ugly and without
JavaScript the sort isn't functional.

The working example should provide any ng-table specific info you need.
(See attached file: table.html)

                                                              
     Regards,                                                 
                                                              
    Fred Esch                                                 
 Watson, IBM, W3C                                             
  Accessibility                                               
                                                              
 IBM Watson       Watson Release Management and Quality       
                                                              






From:	Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
To:	Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS
Cc:	Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>, "'W3C WAI Accessible
            Platform Architectures'" <public-apa@w3.org>, "'Accessible Rich
            Internet Applications Working Group'" <public-aria@w3.org>
Date:	02/03/2016 06:56 PM
Subject:	RE: grids vs sortable tables



If you could do that and send this through as a txt file that would help,
knowing the structure is the best way to identify the most common potential
issues.

From: Fred Esch [mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2016 1:39 PM
To: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
Cc: Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>; 'W3C WAI Accessible Platform
Architectures' <public-apa@w3.org>; 'Accessible Rich Internet Applications
Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
Subject: RE: grids vs sortable tables



Bryan,

I can't point to a live example. Most of the issues I run across are in
products that are a few months from going out the door. The best I can do
is screen scape the DOM.



                                                     
     Regards,                                        
                                                     
    Fred Esch                                        
 Watson, IBM, W3C                                    
  Accessibility                                      
                                                     
 IBM Watson       Watson Release Management and      
                  Quality                            
                                                     






Inactive hide details for Bryan Garaventa ---02/03/2016 11:49:31 AM---Can
you point to a live example of this? Thanks,Bryan Garaventa ---02/03/2016
11:49:31 AM---Can you point to a live example of this? Thanks,

From: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
To: Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS
Cc: Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>, "'W3C WAI Accessible Platform
Architectures'" <public-apa@w3.org>, "'Accessible Rich Internet
Applications Working Group'" <public-aria@w3.org>
Date: 02/03/2016 11:49 AM
Subject: RE: grids vs sortable tables




Can you point to a live example of this?
Thanks,
Bryan

From: Fred Esch [mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2016 5:57 AM
To: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
Cc: Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>; 'W3C WAI Accessible Platform
Architectures' <public-apa@w3.org>; 'Accessible Rich Internet Applications
Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
Subject: RE: grids vs sortable tables


Bryan and Matt,

What all do you recommend for a structure for a sortable table. Is there an
ideal example? If you were looking at fixing a widely used library and
donating back the fix, what you want the widely used sortable table to look
like? For instance, if you were looking at angularJS's ng-table what you
want changed?


                                              
     Regards,                                 
                                              
    Fred Esch                                 
 Watson, IBM, W3C                             
  Accessibility                               
                                              
 IBM Watson       Watson Release Management   
                  and Quality                 
                                              






Inactive hide details for Bryan Garaventa ---02/02/2016 12:57:22 PM---It
should still be possible to do something like the follBryan Garaventa
---02/02/2016 12:57:22 PM---It should still be possible to do something
like the following. <table>

From: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
To: Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS, Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>
Cc: "'W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures'" <public-apa@w3.org>,
"'Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group'" <public-aria@w3.org
>
Date: 02/02/2016 12:57 PM
Subject: RE: grids vs sortable tables





It should still be possible to do something like the following.

<table>
<tr>
<th aria-sort="ascending">
<a href="#"> Name </a>
</th>
<th aria-sort="none">
<a href="#"> Email </a>
</th>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>
Twoflower
</td>
<td>
Inn-sewer-ants@discworld.com
</td>
</tr>
</table>

Or the same using its equivalent role=”table” on a simulated construct.
This is documented in the ARIA 1.1 spec for use with both tables and grids.



From: Fred Esch [mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 5:46 AM
To: Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>
Cc: 'W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures' <public-apa@w3.org>;
'Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
Subject: RE: grids vs sortable tables


Matt,

I assumed the table sortable attribute and the th sorted attributes were
passed on to AT. I assumed that when a sorted state was announced, the user
would know that you could sort on that column - using the mouse or enter
key. I didn't know the HTML attributes were going away.

Deque's sortable table example uses role of grid and aria-sort on the th
elements aria-sort='none' when it is sortable but not sorted by that
column. I would suggest making an W3C example for sortable tables since the
current HTML spec can cause confusion between grids and tables.


                                              
     Regards,                                 
                                              
    Fred Esch                                 
 Watson, IBM, W3C                             
  Accessibility                               
                                              
 IBM Watson       Watson Release Management   
                  and Quality                 
                                              






Inactive hide details for Matt King ---02/01/2016 02:49:12 PM---Fred,Matt
King ---02/01/2016 02:49:12 PM---Fred,

From: Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>
To: Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS, "'Steve Faulkner'" <
faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Cc: "'Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group'" <
public-aria@w3.org>, "'W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures'" <
public-apa@w3.org>
Date: 02/01/2016 02:49 PM
Subject: RE: grids vs sortable tables






Fred,

Is it necessary to have a property on the table to tell the user that a
particular TH inside that table contains an interactive element for sorting
that column?

Matt

From: Fred Esch [mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Monday, February 1, 2016 9:57 AM
To: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Cc: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group <public-aria@w3.org
>; W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures <public-apa@w3.org>
Subject: Re: grids vs sortable tables


Steve,

There are sortable tables being used in the wild, for example angularJS's
ng-table. How are developers supposed to tell AT users that a table is
sortable and a column can be sorted if the sortable and sorted properties
are removed?

Sortable tables are important for accessibility as they are often used as
an accessible alternative to charts. Even when you can make a chart
accessible, when you a huge number of data rows - you want a better way for
an AT user to find the max/min values than walking all the data members.
For instance, providing a sortable table will be more usable than having an
accessible bar chart and forcing an AT user to walk 200 bars to find the
top five bars. Personally, if I had to get the top five values from a huge
bar chart I would prefer a sortable table as well.


                                                            
     Regards,                                               
                                                            
    Fred Esch                                               
 Watson, IBM, W3C                                           
  Accessibility                                             
                                                            
 IBM Watson       Watson Release Management and Quality     
                                                            






Inactive hide details for Steve Faulkner ---01/29/2016 04:58:04 PM---On 29
January 2016 at 20:07, Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com> Steve Faulkner
---01/29/2016 04:58:04 PM---On 29 January 2016 at 20:07, Fred Esch <
fesch@us.ibm.com> wrote: > A table element can have a *'sort

From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
To: Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS
Cc: Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>, Accessible Rich Internet
Applications Working Group <public-aria@w3.org>
Date: 01/29/2016 04:58 PM
Subject: Re: grids vs sortable tables








On 29 January 2016 at 20:07, Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com> wrote:
                                                A table element can have a
                                                'sortable' attribute which
                                                designates you can sort on
                                                columns.


note the table sorting algorithm and associated attribute have been removed
from the whatwg HTML spec due to a lack of implementer interest and suggest
the same fate will befall this feature in W3C HTML, sooner rather than
later.

--

Regards

SteveF
Current Standards Work @W3C

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z{Ch+bx)<html><body><p>Bryan,<br><br>I found a working<a href="http://ng-table.com/#/"> ng-table example</a> online.  I also am attaching a screen scraped table that may use some ng-table functionality, but differs from the pure ng-table example in that the data portion of the table is generated with ng-repeat. I cut down some class names, don't include the JavaScript or CSS files and wrapped the table in a plain HTML file so the table will render in a browser, but without CSS it is ugly and without JavaScript the sort isn't functional.  <br><br>The working example should provide any ng-table specific info you need.  <br><i>(See attached file: table.html)</i><br><br><br>
<table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td width="473" colspan="2" valign="middle"><div align="center"><font size="4" face="Verdana">Regards, <br><br>Fred Esch <br>Watson, IBM, W3C Accessibility</font></div></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td width="130" valign="middle"><img src="cid:2__=0ABBF5DCDFD099448f9e8a93df938690918c0AB@" width="163" height="23" alt="IBM Watson" align="bottom"></td><td width="342" valign="middle"><font size="4" face="Verdana">Watson Release Management and Quality </font></td></tr></table><br><br><img width="16" height="16" src="cid:3__=0ABBF5DCDFD099448f9e8a93df938690918c0AB@" border="0" alt="Inactive hide details for Bryan Garaventa ---02/03/2016 06:56:27 PM---If you could do that and send this through as a txt file "><font color="#424282">Bryan Garaventa ---02/03/2016 06:56:27 PM---If you could do that and send this through as a txt file that would help, knowing the structure is t</font><br><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">From:        </font><font size="2">Bryan Garaventa &lt;bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com&gt;</font><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">To:        </font><font size="2">Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS</font><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">Cc:        </font><font size="2">Matt King &lt;a11ythinker@gmail.com&gt;, &quot;'W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures'&quot; &lt;public-apa@w3.org&gt;, &quot;'Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group'&quot; &lt;public-aria@w3.org&gt;</font><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">Date:        </font><font size="2">02/03/2016 06:56 PM</font><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">Subject:        </font><font size="2">RE: grids vs sortable tables</font><br><hr width="100%" size="2" align="left" noshade style="color:#8091A5; "><br><br><br><font color="#1F497D" face="Calibri">If you could do that and send this through as a txt file that would help, knowing the structure is the best way to identify the most common potential issues.</font><br><font color="#1F497D" face="Calibri"> </font><br><b><font face="Calibri">From:</font></b><font face="Calibri"> Fred Esch [</font><font face="Calibri"><a href="mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com">mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com</a></font><font face="Calibri">] </font><b><font face="Calibri"><br>Sent:</font></b><font face="Calibri"> Wednesday, February 03, 2016 1:39 PM</font><b><font face="Calibri"><br>To:</font></b><font face="Calibri"> Bryan Garaventa &lt;bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com&gt;</font><b><font face="Calibri"><br>Cc:</font></b><font face="Calibri"> Matt King &lt;a11ythinker@gmail.com&gt;; 'W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures' &lt;public-apa@w3.org&gt;; 'Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group' &lt;public-aria@w3.org&gt;</font><b><font face="Calibri"><br>Subject:</font></b><font face="Calibri"> RE: grids vs sortable tables</font><br><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"> </font><p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Bryan,<br><br>I can't point to a live example. Most of the issues I run across are in products that are a few months from going out the door. The best I can do is screen scape the DOM. <br></font><p><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td width="404" colspan="2" valign="middle"><div align="center"><font size="5" face="Verdana">Regards, <br><br>Fred Esch <br>Watson, IBM, W3C Accessibility</font></div></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td width="130" valign="middle"><img src="cid:2__=0ABBF5DCDFD099448f9e8a93df938690918c0AB@" width="163" height="23" alt="IBM Watson" align="bottom"></td><td width="274" valign="middle"><font size="5" face="Verdana">Watson Release Management and Quality </font></td></tr></table><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br><br></font><img src="cid:3__=0ABBF5DCDFD099448f9e8a93df938690918c0AB@" width="16" height="16" alt="Inactive hide details for Bryan Garaventa ---02/03/2016 11:49:31 AM---Can you point to a live example of this? Thanks,"><font size="4" color="#424282" face="Times New Roman">Bryan Garaventa ---02/03/2016 11:49:31 AM---Can you point to a live example of this? Thanks,</font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br></font><font color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>From: </font><font face="Times New Roman">Bryan Garaventa &lt;</font><a href="mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com"><u><font color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com</font></u></a><font face="Times New Roman">&gt;</font><font color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>To: </font><font face="Times New Roman">Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS</font><font color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>Cc: </font><font face="Times New Roman">Matt King &lt;</font><a href="mailto:a11ythinker@gmail.com"><u><font color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">a11ythinker@gmail.com</font></u></a><font face="Times New Roman">&gt;, &quot;'W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures'&quot; &lt;</font><a href="mailto:public-apa@w3.org"><u><font color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">public-apa@w3.org</font></u></a><font face="Times New Roman">&gt;, &quot;'Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group'&quot; &lt;</font><a href="mailto:public-aria@w3.org"><u><font color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">public-aria@w3.org</font></u></a><font face="Times New Roman">&gt;</font><font color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>Date: </font><font face="Times New Roman">02/03/2016 11:49 AM</font><font color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>Subject: </font><font face="Times New Roman">RE: grids vs sortable tables</font><br><hr width="100%" size="2" align="left" noshade><br><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br><br></font><font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri"><br>Can you point to a live example of this?<br>Thanks,<br>Bryan</font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br></font><b><font size="4" face="Calibri"><br>From:</font></b><font size="4" face="Calibri"> Fred Esch [</font><a href="mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Calibri">mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com</font></u></a><font size="4" face="Calibri">] </font><b><font size="4" face="Calibri"><br>Sent:</font></b><font size="4" face="Calibri"> Wednesday, February 03, 2016 5:57 AM</font><b><font size="4" face="Calibri"><br>To:</font></b><font size="4" face="Calibri"> Bryan Garaventa &lt;</font><a href="mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Calibri">bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com</font></u></a><font size="4" face="Calibri">&gt;</font><b><font size="4" face="Calibri"><br>Cc:</font></b><font size="4" face="Calibri"> Matt King &lt;</font><a href="mailto:a11ythinker@gmail.com"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Calibri">a11ythinker@gmail.com</font></u></a><font size="4" face="Calibri">&gt;; 'W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures' &lt;</font><a href="mailto:public-apa@w3.org"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Calibri">public-apa@w3.org</font></u></a><font size="4" face="Calibri">&gt;; 'Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group' &lt;</font><a href="mailto:public-aria@w3.org"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Calibri">public-aria@w3.org</font></u></a><font size="4" face="Calibri">&gt;</font><b><font size="4" face="Calibri"><br>Subject:</font></b><font size="4" face="Calibri"> RE: grids vs sortable tables</font><p><font size="5" face="Times New Roman">Bryan and Matt,<br><br>What all do you recommend for a structure for a sortable table. Is there an ideal example? If you were looking at fixing a widely used library and donating back the fix, what you want the widely used sortable table to look like? For instance, if you were looking at angularJS's ng-table what you want changed? </font><p><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td width="350" colspan="2" valign="middle"><div align="center"><font size="6" face="Verdana">Regards, <br><br>Fred Esch <br>Watson, IBM, W3C Accessibility</font></div></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td width="130" valign="middle"><img src="cid:2__=0ABBF5DCDFD099448f9e8a93df938690918c0AB@" width="163" height="23" alt="IBM Watson" align="bottom"></td><td width="219" valign="middle"><font size="6" face="Verdana">Watson Release Management and Quality </font></td></tr></table><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><br></font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br></font><img src="cid:3__=0ABBF5DCDFD099448f9e8a93df938690918c0AB@" width="16" height="16" alt="Inactive hide details for Bryan Garaventa ---02/02/2016 12:57:22 PM---It should still be possible to do something like the foll"><font size="5" color="#424282" face="Times New Roman">Bryan Garaventa ---02/02/2016 12:57:22 PM---It should still be possible to do something like the following. &lt;table&gt;</font><font size="4" color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br><br>From: </font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Bryan Garaventa &lt;</font><a href="mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com</font></u></a><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">&gt;</font><font size="4" color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>To: </font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS, Matt King &lt;</font><a href="mailto:a11ythinker@gmail.com"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">a11ythinker@gmail.com</font></u></a><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">&gt;</font><font size="4" color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>Cc: </font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">&quot;'W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures'&quot; &lt;</font><a href="mailto:public-apa@w3.org"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">public-apa@w3.org</font></u></a><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">&gt;, &quot;'Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group'&quot; &lt;</font><a href="mailto:public-aria@w3.org"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">public-aria@w3.org</font></u></a><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">&gt;</font><font size="4" color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>Date: </font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">02/02/2016 12:57 PM</font><font size="4" color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>Subject: </font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">RE: grids vs sortable tables</font><br><hr width="100%" size="2" align="left" noshade><br><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><br><br></font><font size="5" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri"><br><br>It should still be possible to do something like the following.<br><br>&lt;table&gt;<br>&lt;tr&gt;<br>&lt;th aria-sort=&quot;ascending&quot;&gt;<br>&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot;&gt; Name &lt;/a&gt;<br>&lt;/th&gt;<br>&lt;th aria-sort=&quot;none&quot;&gt;<br>&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot;&gt; Email &lt;/a&gt;<br>&lt;/th&gt;<br>&lt;/tr&gt;<br>&lt;tr&gt;<br>&lt;td&gt;<br>Twoflower<br>&lt;/td&gt;<br>&lt;td&gt;</font><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman"><br></font></u><a href="mailto:Inn-sewer-ants@discworld.com"><u><font size="5" color="#0000FF" face="Calibri">Inn-sewer-ants@discworld.com</font></u></a><font size="5" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri"><br>&lt;/td&gt;<br>&lt;/tr&gt;<br>&lt;/table&gt;<br><br>Or the same using its equivalent role=”table” on a simulated construct. This is documented in the ARIA 1.1 spec for use with both tables and grids.</font><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><br><br></font><b><font size="5" face="Calibri"><br><br>From:</font></b><font size="5" face="Calibri"> Fred Esch [</font><a href="mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com"><u><font size="5" color="#0000FF" face="Calibri">mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com</font></u></a><font size="5" face="Calibri">] </font><b><font size="5" face="Calibri"><br>Sent:</font></b><font size="5" face="Calibri"> Tuesday, February 02, 2016 5:46 AM</font><b><font size="5" face="Calibri"><br>To:</font></b><font size="5" face="Calibri"> Matt King &lt;</font><a href="mailto:a11ythinker@gmail.com"><u><font size="5" color="#0000FF" face="Calibri">a11ythinker@gmail.com</font></u></a><font size="5" face="Calibri">&gt;</font><b><font size="5" face="Calibri"><br>Cc:</font></b><font size="5" face="Calibri"> 'W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures' &lt;</font><a href="mailto:public-apa@w3.org"><u><font size="5" color="#0000FF" face="Calibri">public-apa@w3.org</font></u></a><font size="5" face="Calibri">&gt;; 'Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group' &lt;</font><a href="mailto:public-aria@w3.org"><u><font size="5" color="#0000FF" face="Calibri">public-aria@w3.org</font></u></a><font size="5" face="Calibri">&gt;</font><b><font size="5" face="Calibri"><br>Subject:</font></b><font size="5" face="Calibri"> RE: grids vs sortable tables</font><p><font size="6" face="Times New Roman">Matt,<br><br>I assumed the table sortable attribute and the th sorted attributes were passed on to AT. I assumed that when a sorted state was announced, the user would know that you could sort on that column - using the mouse or enter key. I didn't know the HTML attributes were going away. </font><u><font size="5" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman"><br></font></u><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman"><br></font></u><a href="https://dequeuniversity.com/library/aria/tables/sf-sortable-grid"><u><font size="6" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">Deque's sortable table example</font></u></a><font size="6" face="Times New Roman"> uses role of grid and aria-sort on the th elements aria-sort='none' when it is sortable but not sorted by that column. I would suggest making an W3C example for sortable tables since the current HTML spec can cause confusion between grids and tables.</font><p><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td width="350" colspan="2" valign="middle"><div align="center"><font size="7" face="Verdana">Regards, <br><br>Fred Esch <br>Watson, IBM, W3C Accessibility</font></div></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td width="130" valign="middle"><img src="cid:2__=0ABBF5DCDFD099448f9e8a93df938690918c0AB@" width="163" height="23" alt="IBM Watson" align="bottom"></td><td width="219" valign="middle"><font size="7" face="Verdana">Watson Release Management and Quality </font></td></tr></table><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><br></font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br></font><img src="cid:3__=0ABBF5DCDFD099448f9e8a93df938690918c0AB@" width="16" height="16" alt="Inactive hide details for Matt King ---02/01/2016 02:49:12 PM---Fred,"><font size="6" color="#424282" face="Times New Roman">Matt King ---02/01/2016 02:49:12 PM---Fred,</font><font size="5" color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br><br>From: </font><font size="5" face="Times New Roman">Matt King &lt;</font><a href="mailto:a11ythinker@gmail.com"><u><font size="5" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">a11ythinker@gmail.com</font></u></a><font size="5" face="Times New Roman">&gt;</font><font size="5" color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>To: </font><font size="5" face="Times New Roman">Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS, &quot;'Steve Faulkner'&quot; &lt;</font><a href="mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com"><u><font size="5" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">faulkner.steve@gmail.com</font></u></a><font size="5" face="Times New Roman">&gt;</font><font size="5" color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>Cc: </font><font size="5" face="Times New Roman">&quot;'Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group'&quot; &lt;</font><a href="mailto:public-aria@w3.org"><u><font size="5" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">public-aria@w3.org</font></u></a><font size="5" face="Times New Roman">&gt;, &quot;'W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures'&quot; &lt;</font><a href="mailto:public-apa@w3.org"><u><font size="5" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">public-apa@w3.org</font></u></a><font size="5" face="Times New Roman">&gt;</font><font size="5" color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>Date: </font><font size="5" face="Times New Roman">02/01/2016 02:49 PM</font><font size="5" color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>Subject: </font><font size="5" face="Times New Roman">RE: grids vs sortable tables</font><br><hr width="100%" size="2" align="left" noshade><br><font size="6" face="Times New Roman"><br><br></font><font size="6" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri"><br><br><br>Fred,<br><br>Is it necessary to have a property on the table to tell the user that a particular TH inside that table contains an interactive element for sorting that column?<br><br>Matt</font><b><font size="6" face="Calibri"><br><br>From:</font></b><font size="6" face="Calibri"> Fred Esch [</font><a href="mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com"><u><font size="6" color="#0000FF" face="Calibri">mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com</font></u></a><font size="6" face="Calibri">] </font><b><font size="6" face="Calibri"><br>Sent:</font></b><font size="6" face="Calibri"> Monday, February 1, 2016 9:57 AM</font><b><font size="6" face="Calibri"><br>To:</font></b><font size="6" face="Calibri"> Steve Faulkner &lt;</font><a href="mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com"><u><font size="6" color="#0000FF" face="Calibri">faulkner.steve@gmail.com</font></u></a><font size="6" face="Calibri">&gt;</font><b><font size="6" face="Calibri"><br>Cc:</font></b><font size="6" face="Calibri"> Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group &lt;</font><a href="mailto:public-aria@w3.org"><u><font size="6" color="#0000FF" face="Calibri">public-aria@w3.org</font></u></a><font size="6" face="Calibri">&gt;; W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures &lt;</font><a href="mailto:public-apa@w3.org"><u><font size="6" color="#0000FF" face="Calibri">public-apa@w3.org</font></u></a><font size="6" face="Calibri">&gt;</font><b><font size="6" face="Calibri"><br>Subject:</font></b><font size="6" face="Calibri"> Re: grids vs sortable tables</font><p><a name="_MailEndCompose"></a><font size="7" face="Times New Roman">Steve,<br><br>There are sortable tables being used in the wild, for example angularJS's ng-table. How are developers supposed to tell AT users that a table is sortable and a column can be sorted if the sortable and sorted properties are removed? <br><br>Sortable tables are important for accessibility as they are often used as an accessible alternative to charts. Even when you can make a chart accessible, when you a huge number of data rows - you want a better way for an AT user to find the max/min values than walking all the data members. For instance, providing a sortable table will be more usable than having an accessible bar chart and forcing an AT user to walk 200 bars to find the top five bars. Personally, if I had to get the top five values from a huge bar chart I would prefer a sortable table as well. </font><p><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td width="459" colspan="2" valign="middle"><div align="center"><font size="7" face="Verdana">Regards, <br><br>Fred Esch <br>Watson, IBM, W3C Accessibility</font></div></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td width="130" valign="middle"><img src="cid:2__=0ABBF5DCDFD099448f9e8a93df938690918c0AB@" width="163" height="23" alt="IBM Watson" align="bottom"></td><td width="329" valign="middle"><font size="7" face="Verdana">Watson Release Management and Quality </font></td></tr></table><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><br></font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br></font><img src="cid:3__=0ABBF5DCDFD099448f9e8a93df938690918c0AB@" width="16" height="16" alt="Inactive hide details for Steve Faulkner ---01/29/2016 04:58:04 PM---On 29 January 2016 at 20:07, Fred Esch &lt;fesch@us.ibm.com&gt; "><font size="7" color="#424282" face="Times New Roman">Steve Faulkner ---01/29/2016 04:58:04 PM---On 29 January 2016 at 20:07, Fred Esch &lt;</font><a href="mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com"><u><font size="7" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">fesch@us.ibm.com</font></u></a><font size="7" color="#424282" face="Times New Roman">&gt; wrote: &gt; A table element can have a *'sort</font><font size="6" color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br><br>From: </font><font size="6" face="Times New Roman">Steve Faulkner &lt;</font><a href="mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com"><u><font size="6" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">faulkner.steve@gmail.com</font></u></a><font size="6" face="Times New Roman">&gt;</font><font size="6" color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>To: </font><font size="6" face="Times New Roman">Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS</font><font size="6" color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>Cc: </font><font size="6" face="Times New Roman">Matt King &lt;</font><a href="mailto:a11ythinker@gmail.com"><u><font size="6" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">a11ythinker@gmail.com</font></u></a><font size="6" face="Times New Roman">&gt;, Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group &lt;</font><a href="mailto:public-aria@w3.org"><u><font size="6" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">public-aria@w3.org</font></u></a><font size="6" face="Times New Roman">&gt;</font><font size="6" color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>Date: </font><font size="6" face="Times New Roman">01/29/2016 04:58 PM</font><font size="6" color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>Subject: </font><font size="6" face="Times New Roman">Re: grids vs sortable tables</font><br><hr width="100%" size="2" align="left" noshade><br><font size="7" face="Times New Roman"><br><br><br></font><font size="7" face="Times New Roman"><br><br><br><br>On 29 January 2016 at 20:07, Fred Esch &lt;</font><a href="mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com" target="_blank"><u><font size="7" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">fesch@us.ibm.com</font></u></a><font size="7" face="Times New Roman">&gt; wrote:</font><ul><ul><ul><ul><ul><ul><ul><ul><ul><ul><ul><ul><ul><ul><ul><ul><font size="7" face="Times New Roman">A table element can have a </font><i><font size="7" face="Times New Roman">'sortable'</font></i><font size="7" face="Times New Roman"> attribute which designates you can sort on columns.</font></ul></ul></ul></ul></ul></ul></ul></ul></ul></ul></ul></ul></ul></ul></ul></ul><font size="7" face="Times New Roman"><br><br>note the table sorting algorithm and associated attribute have been removed from the whatwg HTML spec due to a lack of implementer interest and suggest the same fate will befall this feature in W3C HTML, sooner rather than later.<br><br>--<br><br>Regards<br><br>SteveF</font><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman"><br></font></u><a href="http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/03/current-standards-work-at-w3c/" target="_blank"><u><font size="7" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">Current Standards Work @W3C</font></u></a><br><BR>
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