- From: Alexander Surkov <surkov.alexander@gmail.com>
- Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 15:04:21 -0500
- To: Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com>
- Cc: Joseph Scheuhammer <clown@alum.mit.edu>, James Teh <jamie@nvaccess.org>, Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>, "wai-xtech@w3.org" <wai-xtech@w3.org>, "public-aria@w3.org" <public-aria@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CA+epNsc6fJN9+kV1Hh0BfJvJZH3U7WwYv_OtJgcrXu=rX=MbUA@mail.gmail.com>
Hi, Cynthia. Please correct me, if I didn't captured it correctly. UIA doesn't want an accessible for role="text", it doesn't want to expose it via Text pattern, but it wants to expose it as part of accessible name computation. About 2nd. I agree role='text' usage should be restricted to certain cases, like role=none or role=table. On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com> wrote: > Hi Alex, > > We discussed this at length on the AAPI call today, and here is where we > landed. > > > > 1) We’re making a change to the UIA mapping to make it more clear > what is happening. > > “UIA: Text Control Pattern. Run name calculation, and add the resulting > string to the text pattern for the overall page, at the point where the > element occurred.” > > > > This is different than what happens with presentation, where we just > remove the element from the tree. So, for this example > > Once upon a <img alt=”foo”> time > > The element would not be in the UIA control tree with either role=text or > role=presentation > > For role=text, the text pattern for the page would be “Once upon a foo > time” > > For role=presentation, the text pattern for the page would be “Once upon a > time” > > > > As a side note, we don’t generally map spans to controls, unless they have > a tabindex, certain aria properties, or an onclick handler that’s bound > directly to the element (not bubbled). > > > > 2) We created this issue, saying the same exclusions that apply to > role=presenation and role=none ought to apply to role=text as well. > > https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1011 > > > > Does the combination of these two things resolve your issues? > > > > > > > > *From:* Alexander Surkov [mailto:surkov.alexander@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, January 28, 2016 7:53 AM > *To:* Joseph Scheuhammer <clown@alum.mit.edu> > *Cc:* James Teh <jamie@nvaccess.org>; Richard Schwerdtfeger < > schwer@us.ibm.com>; wai-xtech@w3.org; public-aria@w3.org > *Subject:* Re: role="text" and text frames > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Joseph Scheuhammer <clown@alum.mit.edu> > wrote: > > On 2016-01-28 8:06 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote: > > Everything that is a text should be accessible via text interface (like > IAccessibleText in IA2) and should be navigable by the user. role="text" > providing a text doesn't meet these criteria. If we could require the > browsers to support text interface for the role, but it seems we can do > nothing about the second part. It's just one extra step towards to > semantics disconnected from UI like aria-hidden true/false. > > > We (the AAPI task force), discussed that last fall, and I wrote (Fri, Oct > 16, 2015 at 11:33 AM): > > > > Oh, right. As for any controversial thing the discussions on this stuff > goes on and on :) and we all repeating ourselves from time to time as time > goes. I'm sorry though for making a blast from the past. > > > > ... > We spent the better part of one of our AAPI meetings on whether > role="text" should support IA2 and ATK's AccessibleText interfaces. The > problem was that the character/word information is problematic in > certain cases, e.g., > > <span role="text" aria-label="3 of 5 stars">★★★☆☆︎</span></p> > > The string "3 of 5 stars" has four words and 13 characters, whereas > "★★★☆☆︎" is one (?) word with five characters. > > Joanie's suggestion was along the lines of stating that role="text" > might implement an accessible text interface, with the caveat that it > may not make sense in all cases. (I'm certain I've not captured > Joanie's thoughts accurately here). > > > Jamie replied: > > Right. However, I see that there are cases where it *might* make sense, > such as this example from the spec: > <div role="text"> > <p>I</p> > <p>like</p> > <p>turtles</p> > </div> > In that case, the accessible *does* need IAccessibleText. And now things > get confusing: should the AT expect IAccessibleText or not for this role? > Where IAccessibleText is present, an AT certainly shouldn't just use the > name. > > FWIW, NVDA should handle either case with no problems as it is. > > > If ATs can handle both cases (caret navigation makes sense vs. it doesn't > make sense), then we are good to go. But, I remain uncertain. > > > > Yeah, this is controversial. Anyway why UIA mapping is different? Is it on > purpose? > > > > > You wrote: > > Then, if we do the statictext role which is a leaf, then I'm not clear how > we proceed with <p role="text">Oh, yeah, this is a whole paragraph</p>. We > may want to require the browsers to be smarter, stating that either 1) role > is ignored or 2) text container role is applied in cases where role="text" > is used on complex content. > > > One effect of using of role="text" is to flatten the content, or, remove > the structure. Using the turtle example that Jamie cited, the result is > the string "I like turtles". That again leads to a disconnect between > caret navigation within the browser vs. what the AT is given. In the > browser window, the words "I", "like", and "turtles" are vertically > stacked, and users can move among them using up/down arrows. That vertical > arrangement is lost when the text of flattened, and only left/right works. > Is this a bad thing? > > Here is an even more disturbing case: <table role="text"> ... many rows, > columns, and cells ... </table>. That means all the text in the table > becomes one long flat string. Or, is this a case where the spec states > that authors MUST NOT do this? > > > > I guess I would go with the approach to ignore the role in such cases, as > it wasn't present at all. Was there any agreement on this topic (I may be > missing some of past discussions)? > > > > > > -- > ;;;;joseph. > > 'Die Wahrheit ist Irgendwo da Draußen. Wieder.' > - C. Carter - > > >
Received on Wednesday, 3 February 2016 20:04:53 UTC