- From: Rich Schwerdtfeger <richschwer@gmail.com>
- Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2016 10:15:42 -0500
- To: Alexander Surkov <surkov.alexander@gmail.com>
- Cc: Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>, Joseph Scheuhammer <clown@alum.mit.edu>, "Schnabel, Stefan" <stefan.schnabel@sap.com>, Steven Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, IA2 List <Accessibility-ia2@lists.linux-foundation.org>, ARIA Working Group <public-aria@w3.org>
- Message-Id: <A550CD77-A14E-4B6B-8365-916F46C0753B@gmail.com>
Alex, those object attributes should have been included in IA2 a long time ago. I in no way see these as a hack. Eclipse uses them too. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 25, 2016, at 9:49 AM, Alexander Surkov <surkov.alexander@gmail.com> wrote: > > This is true, however xml-roles is not standard attribute in IA2, it's rather a browser specific hack to expose the semantics, that otherwise was missed. So if the API provides a way to expose an element semantics more fully, then I'd say it's the way to go. > > Having said that, I'm also concerned about backward-compatibility issue. > >> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com> wrote: >> Sorry for being spammy, but with respect to the loss of semantics: The >> type of landmark is still being exposed via object attribute. So I'll >> still know if an ATK_ROLE_LANDMARK is a form, or navigation, or .... >> >> On 08/25/2016 10:24 AM, Joanmarie Diggs wrote: >> > Hi Alex, all. >> > >> > I don't recall saying "kill the form role" in ATK. We have no plans to >> > deprecate ATK_ROLE_FORM. Instead, I believe I said something along the >> > lines of the following: >> > >> > Q: Should HTML's form element be treated like a landmark for the >> > purposes of navigation? >> > >> > If Yes: Map it to ATK_ROLE_LANDMARK >> > If No: Continue mapping it to ATK_ROLE_FORM >> > >> > --joanie >> > >> > On 08/25/2016 10:08 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote: >> >> I don't think Jamie argues that FORM is not a landmark. The point is >> >> that FORM is a form and also a landmark. IA2 provides a special FORM >> >> role, which is used both for ARIA and HTML currently, and adopted by >> >> browsers and screen readers. >> >> >> >> If we use weaker role for forms, then we loose semantics as Jamie >> >> pointed out, and we make a not backward compatible change. All JAWS and >> >> other commercial screen reader users will have to buy a new screen >> >> reader version. >> >> >> >> ATK gained this role, because it doesn't have a mechanism to fetch all >> >> landmarks on a page other than query it by role. And thus they are ok to >> >> sacrifice ATK form role for performance reasons I think. Note, ATK world >> >> doesn't have so acute problem of backward compatibility as IA2 has, so >> >> they have a larger room for changes. IA2 landmark role is a ATK toll to >> >> keep IA2 compatible with, this is a primary reason, if I do understand >> >> that right. However I'm not confident too that we should take ATK path >> >> and kill a form role too. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 3:34 AM, Schnabel, Stefan >> >> <stefan.schnabel@sap.com <mailto:stefan.schnabel@sap.com>> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi James,____ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> currently Jaws treats forms like regions as landmarks, i.e. showing >> >> them in its landmarks dialog, too. They do this for reason, page >> >> structure is very clearly revealed by this. I consider this as a >> >> strong feature and do not like this changed.____ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> The logic behind that is the pragmatic thinking that forms are >> >> landmark-like, too. And a “navigation” landmark can contain fairly >> >> complex content, too, not just a list of links.____ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> Best Regards____ >> >> >> >> Stefan____ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> *From:*James Teh [mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org >> >> <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>] >> >> *Sent:* Donnerstag, 25. August 2016 00:33 >> >> *To:* Rich Schwerdtfeger <richschwer@gmail.com >> >> <mailto:richschwer@gmail.com>> >> >> *Cc:* Alexander Surkov <surkov.alexander@gmail.com >> >> <mailto:surkov.alexander@gmail.com>>; Joseph Scheuhammer >> >> <clown@alum.mit.edu <mailto:clown@alum.mit.edu>>; Joanmarie Diggs >> >> <jdiggs@igalia.com <mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com>>; IA2 List >> >> <Accessibility-ia2@lists.linux-foundation.org >> >> <mailto:Accessibility-ia2@lists.linux-foundation.org>>; ARIA Working >> >> Group <public-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-aria@w3.org>>; Steven >> >> Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com <mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com>> >> >> *Subject:* Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 Role Landmark____ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> Hi Rich,____ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> I understand the reason for the use of the landmark role for >> >> role="form". However, I disagree with the HTML form element being >> >> mapped to the landmark role because semantics are lost. The fact >> >> that something is a form has more semantic value than just being a >> >> landmark. Still, if the spec already requires this, I guess we have >> >> little choice but to comply at this stage.____ >> >> >> >> >> >> Jamie____ >> >> >> >> On 25/08/2016 3:08 AM, Rich Schwerdtfeger wrote:____ >> >> >> >> Jamie, ____ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> The point is we want ALL the landmarks to be treated the same >> >> way for ATVs. So, first we determine that it is a landmark. Then >> >> we go to xml-roles to determine the type of landmark. ____ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> Otherwise, we need a special case for a form. That is what we >> >> are trying to avoid. For these reasons ATK/ATSPI created a >> >> landmark role first. ____ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> The HTML the form element now uses the ARIA mappings for the >> >> form role. See "Use WAI-ARIA mapping” under the form element. >> >> This is for all platforms.____ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html >> >> <https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html>____ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> We do understand that non-browser applications may still use the >> >> older Form role mapping as would older browser versions. It is >> >> for these reasons that our definition of deprecation is that it >> >> has not gone a way but rather it is going to this new preferred >> >> mapping. ____ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> Best,____ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> Rich____ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> Rich Schwerdtfeger____ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> On Aug 23, 2016, at 7:35 PM, James Teh <jamie@nvaccess.org >> >> <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>> wrote:____ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> If you believe that role="form" has no semantic value other >> >> than being a landmark, then let's go ahead and map it to >> >> IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK. On the other hand, the HTML form tag >> >> *does* have semantic value other than being a landmark, so >> >> I'd argue it should be IA2_ROLE_FORM.____ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> On 24/08/2016 5:22 AM, Rich Schwerdtfeger wrote:____ >> >> >> >> We are not asking that IA2_ROLE_FORM be deprecated >> >> altogether. Even with ARIA we have some attributes that >> >> re deprecated but that is meant so that there will be a >> >> replacement solution. An example is the drag and drop >> >> aria properties. For ARIA browser conformance testing to >> >> exit Candidate Recommendation we will be testing for >> >> IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK on form roles. ____ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> Rich Schwerdtfeger____ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> On Aug 18, 2016, at 9:56 PM, James Teh >> >> <jamie@nvaccess.org <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>> >> >> wrote:____ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> On 11/08/2016 2:58 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote: >> >> >> >> ____ >> >> >> >> 1) adding IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK and____ >> >> >> >> Yes. >> >> >> >> >> >> ____ >> >> >> >> 2) deprecating IA2_ROLE_FORM?____ >> >> >> >> I'd argue that there is more semantic value in a >> >> "form" than just the fact that it is a landmark. >> >> This probably doesn't apply to ARIA (at least for >> >> now), since role="form" is defined as only a >> >> landmark. However, I'd argue it does apply to the >> >> HTML form tag. So, I'm fine t not use IA2_ROLE_FORM >> >> for ARIA role="form", but I'm dubious about >> >> deprecating it altogether, including for the HTML >> >> form tag. >> >> Jamie >> >> >> >> -- >> >> James Teh >> >> Executive Director, NV Access Limited >> >> Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306> >> >> www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/> >> >> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess >> >> <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess> >> >> Twitter: @NVAccess >> >> SIP: jamie@nvaccess.org <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>____ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ____ >> >> >> >> -- ____ >> >> >> >> James Teh____ >> >> >> >> Executive Director, NV Access Limited____ >> >> >> >> Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306>____ >> >> >> >> www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>____ >> >> >> >> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess >> >> <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>____ >> >> >> >> Twitter: @NVAccess____ >> >> >> >> SIP: jamie@nvaccess.org <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>____ >> >> >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ____ >> >> >> >> -- ____ >> >> >> >> James Teh____ >> >> >> >> Executive Director, NV Access Limited____ >> >> >> >> Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306>____ >> >> >> >> www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org>____ >> >> >> >> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>____ >> >> >> >> Twitter: @NVAccess____ >> >> >> >> SIP: jamie@nvaccess.org <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>____ >> >> >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Accessibility-ia2 mailing list >> > Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org >> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2 >> > >
Received on Thursday, 25 August 2016 15:16:19 UTC