Minutes April 7, 2016 ARIA Working Group Meeting

http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html <http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html>

Text: 

- DRAFT -

Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference

07 Apr 2016

See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-irc>
Attendees <>
Present
JF, LJWatson, Janina, fesch, Joanmarie_Diggs, Michiel_Bijl, MichaelC, Cynthia, Rich, Joseph_Scheuhammer, JamesN, Jemma, Bryan_Garaventa, Matt, JaEunJemmaKu
Regrets
Chair
Rich
Scribe
Rich
Contents

Topics <https://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#agenda>
role=text moving to aria 2.0 cfc <https://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#item01>
role=password <https://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#item02>
last call draft/feature complete in june? <https://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#item03>
combobox <https://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#item04>
Summary of Action Items <https://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
Summary of Resolutions <https://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#ResolutionSummary>

https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Apr/0011.html <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Apr/0011.html>
<JF> +1 to a Joint CAll

<cyns> zakim take up topic 1

https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Apr/0011.html <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Apr/0011.html>
role=text moving to aria 2.0 cfc

<cyns> rs: we can resolve it. no objections

role=password

<cyns> mk: are there actions and issues related ot role=text that need to move to 2.0?

https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/17 <https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/17>
<clown> action-2023

<trackbot> action-2023 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Write a proposal about how to modify the definition of role text to limit its use. -- due 2016-02-23 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2023 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2023>
<clown> issue-111

<trackbot> Sorry, but issue-111 does not exist.

<clown> issue-1017

<trackbot> issue-1017 -- Separate out text from role="none" and "presentation" so that a single location may be referenced in Core-AAM -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1017 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1017>
<Zakim> joanie, you wanted to ask about role="text"

<cyns> mk: how do we move items out of master brach without losing them?

<cyns> jd: do we want to mark at risk or remove as if it wasn't there?

<cyns> rs: remove as if never there?

<cyns> jd: will come up with a way to have a permenant commit that has that stuff and can be pulled in later.

 <><MichaelC> ACTION: joanie to figure out to preserve text and then remove it [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#action01] <http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#action01]>
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2046 - Figure out to preserve text and then remove it [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2016-04-14].

 <><MichaelC> ACTION: clown to remove mappings for text [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#action02] <http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#action02]>
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2047 - Remove mappings for text [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2016-04-14].

<clown> action-2047

<trackbot> action-2047 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Remove mappings for text -- due 2016-04-14 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2047 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2047>
<cyns> rs: 3 wg members raised conerns. Leonie was one. are you ok with the new text?

<cyns> lw: we need a good review with the security team.

<cyns> lw: but it seems basically ok

https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/password-role/aria/aria.html#password <https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/password-role/aria/aria.html#password>
<cyns> rs: has Charles weighed in? Did he also want a security review?

<cyns> rs: don't know where John sits.

<cyns> rs: I think everyone wanted a security review.

<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to schedule meeting with webappsec

<cyns> rs: I can take action to meet with security ig, for after April 18

<cyns> mc: I think we can procede with edits, don't need to block on security review

<cyns> mc: It will jsut be in an editor's draft, not working draft

<cyns> rs: any objections to putting in spec for now?

<cyns> jf: I have no objection to continuing to work in this

<cyns> jf: I talked to charles, and he wants review as well.

<cyns> jf: can we look at a differnt name, other than password, that might not imply other stuff that comes with password

<cyns> jf: like role=obscured or role=blurred or something

<cyns> jf: the heart of my concern is what people will assume a password is.

<cyns> rs: I think what you want to say is "this isn't a standard html password"

<cyns> jf: yes. for example, in html passoword, you can't copy and paste. users may expect this. new name is a new behavior.

<cyns> mk: i wonder how AT would interpret that?

<cyns> mk: would they still tell users it's a password field

<cyns> lw: for that to be meanigful, you'd have to understand the difference between custom and standard field

<MichielBijl> +1

<cyns> jd: does the group want editor's note that this is at risk, and we're going to consult with security?

<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to note still maps to things named password in aapi, and part of the problem is we don´t know if it´s going to be obscured so naming it such might cause

<JF> +1 to Under Discussion note

<cyns> mc: use "under discussion" rather than at risk

<LJWatson> +1 to leaving a note in the spec to say "under discussion"

<cyns> mc: I think it would still map to password in aapi. and part of the problem is that it isn't obscured

<cyns> cs: +1 to michael. we don't have soemthing other than password to map it to

<cyns> rs: the fact that it's not obscured is the problem. need to talk to ATs

<cyns> rs: after we talk to security people

<cyns> jn: put off to 2.0?

<cyns> cs: I raised it and 2.0 is ok with me

<cyns> mc: we haven't done a consensus test for 1.1 vs. 2.0. We have put in a lot of work, and we seem close. I'd hate to abandon now.

<joanie> I would like to add for the record that I am fine for 2.0 as we need to feature freeze soon.

<clown> +1 to MichaelC

<cyns> mc: if security conversation has big problems, or there's new issues, then maybe we can push to 2.0. for now, I htink we should procede with 1.1 plan

<cyns> mk: +1 to michael and cynthia

<Zakim> JF, you wanted to also ask, as part of this, to have a specific W3C Communications go out to SR Vendors

<cyns> jf: rich mentioned concern about going to every screen reader makers. If we're really requiring them to do something, I'd like to see an official w3c communication asking them to do it.

<cyns> rs: that sounds good

<cyns> mc: I'm not sure something out of communications office is somethign we'd do. we can take offline. can do strong messaging from WAI domain.

<cyns> rs: draft resoltuion: put password into 1.1 editors draft, meet with security group, communicate with AT vendors to process it correctly

<cyns> rs: draft resoltuion: put password into 1.1 editors draft, meet with security group, communicate with AT vendors to speak rendered text

<cyns> rs: could limit it to passwords, but would like it broader

<cyns> mk: you're going to get pushback from screen reader vendors for perf and responsiveness reasons.

<cyns> mk: don't htink we should strong-arm screen readers into changing key echo to screen echo

<cyns> rs: it's a should

<cyns> mk: don't think we should do it it outside custom password field

<Zakim> clown, you wanted to clarify: not strong-arm the AT vendors, but the user agents.

<cyns> cs: ACTION: cyns to talk into narrator team about feasibility of echoing rendered text in role=password

 <><cyns> ACTION: cyns to talk into narrator team about feasibility of echoing rendered text in role=password [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#action03] <http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#action03]>
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2048 - Talk into narrator team about feasibility of echoing rendered text in role=password [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2016-04-14].

<cyns> js: can and author override, by script, native html5 password text obscuring?

<cyns> mk: lotus notes put special symbols into password text so the user could recognize if the pattern was right, but no one else could see it

<cyns> mk: that might be a legit use

<cyns> draft resoltuion: put password into 1.1 editors draft, meet with security group, communicate with AT vendors to speak rendered text

<janina> +1

RESOLUTION: put password into 1.1 editors draft, meet with security group, communicate with AT vendors to speak rendered text

+1

<joanie> +1

<cyns> +1

<JF> I can live with that resolution for now

<clown> +1

last call draft/feature complete in june?

<cyns> rs: does june sound resonable?

<cyns> cs: can we look at open issues to decide?

https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/17 <https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/17>
<JF> if we are looking at ARIA 1.1 freeze by June, that *MAY* have an impact on previous topic

<joanie> action-1744

<trackbot> action-1744 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Implement edits proposed in issue-641, raise to group if any subsantive changes come out -- due 2016-03-17 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1744 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1744>
<cyns> issue-641

<trackbot> issue-641 -- Abstract role section allows nameFrom content, and some subclassed roles under section do not allow nameFrom:contents (even definition, img, and math, which seems like they should) -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/641 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/641>
<cyns> mk: aria-label overrides the name from the content

<cyns> js: you'll see a button whose name is the label and whose content is there as content

<cyns> mk: it's assistive tech who are revealing only the name?

<cyns> mk: screen readers dont' use both name and content

<cyns> cs: that seems like a bug

<cyns> mk: it's been an authoring technique

<cyns> rs: seems like a red herring, since section is abstract and not mapped

<cyns> jd: action-1744

<cyns> action-1744

<trackbot> action-1744 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Implement edits proposed in issue-641, raise to group if any subsantive changes come out -- due 2016-03-17 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1744 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1744>
<cyns> action-1440

<trackbot> Sorry, but action-1440 does not exist.

<joanie> Regarding math and definition: Do we really want to allow name from contents??

<joanie> As a reminder, a while back we removed name from contents for listitem. The reasons for doing so were first and foremost the fact that there may be a bunch of descendants (such as a nested list). I can see that being the case both for math (see the MathML torture test) and for definition (imagine the 20-volume OED as a web app). Another reason is that what an AT likely wants to present for listitem (and I

<joanie> would argue definition and math) is the text under the element; not a name. And it might want to present that text in smaller chunks (e.g. during caret navigation); not all at once. Lastly, if an author really has a need to override this behavior, listitem (and     definition and math) already allow name from author. Long way of saying that I don't think we want to make this change.

<joanie> I'm less certain about image. But given a sufficiently complicated image (e.g. an organizational chart), I question both the desirability of doing it at all. If we were to do it, having the user agent programmatically do it raises new questions: Should it be DOM order? Visual order? If the latter, top-down or left-right? Do we need to take locale into consideration? The more I think about it, the more I

<joanie> think this seems like a not-good idea....

<MichaelC> pfwg-action-1440?

<trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with that shortname.

<joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/commit/ad4542315 <https://github.com/w3c/aria/commit/ad4542315>
<MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1440 <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1440>
<cyns> jd: this seems like a won't fix.

<cyns> rs: agree.

<cyns> rs: objections to closing issue 641?

<cyns> jd: james wants to do stuff for some other roles. I don't think that's a good idea

<cyns> mk: there might be an issue, but the solution isn't good

<cyns> mk: we should probably punt the issue to 2.0 so we can look at other possible solutions

<joanie> +1 to punting for 2.0

<cyns> rs: +1 for punting

<cyns> mk: can't tell yet

<cyns> cs: +1

<cyns> issue-648

<trackbot> issue-648 -- Role computation with native host language semantics -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/648 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/648>
<cyns> mc: planning to work on this tomorrow. shouldn't block

<cyns> issue-690

<trackbot> issue-690 -- Implementor concerns for UA requirements in #aria-describedat -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/690 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/690>
<cyns> rs: should be closed

<cyns> issue-697

<trackbot> issue-697 -- Remove "frameset" reference from the definition of Root WAI-ARIA node -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/697 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/697>
<cyns> rs: already done

<cyns> action-1658

<trackbot> action-1658 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Remove the reference to “or <frameset>” from the role definition in the glossary. -- due 2015-06-25 -- CLOSED

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1658 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1658>
<cyns> issue-701

<trackbot> issue-701 -- Modify aria-owns such that the idref order pertains to the order of the associated children -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/701 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/701>
<cyns> rs: didn't we do this already?

<cyns> mk: no related actions.

<cyns> rs: shouldn't be blocking

 <><scribe> ACTION: Joanmaire: Add text to aria-owns to address issue 701 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#action04] <http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#action04]>
<trackbot> Error finding 'Joanmaire'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/users <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/users>>.

 <><scribe> ACTION: Joanmarie: Add text to aria-owns to address issue 701 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#action05] <http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#action05]>
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2049 - Add text to aria-owns to address issue 701 [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2016-04-14].

<cyns> issue-742

<trackbot> issue-742 -- Introduce the ability to provide the destination context of a link -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/742 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/742>
<cyns> rs: move to aria 2.0?

<cyns> js: note that COGA needs it

<cyns> mk: discussion regarding link type vs. additional roles. didn't we land on roles?

<cyns> rs: for dpub, yes. this says coga

<cyns> mk: that can be 2.0, right?

<cyns> rs: objection to moving to aria 2.0?

<cyns> cs: +1

RESOLUTION: move issue 742 to ARIA 2.0

<cyns> issue-1002

<trackbot> issue-1002 -- Spin Button default values inconsistent with HTML5 -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1002 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1002>
<cyns> rs: I think this is done.

<clown> action-2005

<trackbot> action-2005 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Solicit input regarding making default spinbutton values more consistent with the defaults for HTML5's input type="number" -- due 2016-01-21 -- CLOSED

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2005 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2005>
<clown> action-2021

<trackbot> action-2021 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Draft text for default max and min spinbutton values -- due 2016-02-18 -- CLOSED

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2021 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2021>
<cyns> jd: I'll check. think you're right

<cyns> issue-1004

<trackbot> issue-1004 -- Add language to spec clarifying there may be exceptions to exposure -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1004 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1004>
<cyns> rs: this means there may be elements in svg that can never be mapped, and placing an aria role on them should be ignored

<cyns> mk: doens't that go in the SVG-AAM instead?

<cyns> +1

<cyns> rs: closing. it is handled in svg-aam

<clown> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/136 <https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/136>
<cyns> js: there's a github issue too.

<cyns> rs: close it

<cyns> issue-1006

<trackbot> issue-1006 -- The roles that include children presentational = true are not consistent -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1006 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1006>
<cyns> rs: think this can be addressed in time

<cyns> issue-1014

<trackbot> issue-1014 -- Address aria-kbdshortcut concerns -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1014 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1014>
<cyns> rs: already in the works

<cyns> issue-1017

<trackbot> issue-1017 -- Separate out text from role="none" and "presentation" so that a single location may be referenced in Core-AAM -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1017 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1017>
<cyns> rs: this is my next action

<cyns> cs: I think yes

<cyns> jf: except password?

<cyns> rs: if we can't get it resolved, we push to 2.0

<cyns> mk: There may be a few things in actions

<cyns> rs: general concensus is we will shoot for june

combobox

<cyns> actio-1490

<cyns> action-1490

<trackbot> action-1490 -- Matthew King to Propose spec text edit for issue-610: comboboxes should allow complex children elements -- due 2016-02-03 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1490 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1490>
<mck> Combobox proposal changes made since March 17 ARIA meeting:

<mck> 1. Included explicit mention of searchbox as an allowed role for the text input element.

<cyns> mk: added feedback from last meeting

<mck> 2. Added author MUST statement requiring aria-controls on the textbox element referring to the popup element.

<mck> 3. Clarified language regarding how aria-activedescendant can be used on the text box to refer to an active element contained by the pop-up element.

<mck> 4. Added SHOULD statement that applies to user agents and assistive technologies to encourage them to continue to supporting the ARIA 1.0 combobox pattern.

<mck> These changes are reflected in the action1490-combobox branch in RawGit:

<mck> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action1490-combobox/aria/aria.html#combobox <http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action1490-combobox/aria/aria.html#combobox>
<cyns> mk: I'd like to review this text today.

<cyns> mk: I will get to active-descendant text next time

<cyns> rs: maybe we should add searcbox to the table, to make it more clear for test tools?

<cyns> mk: other examples in the spec, it's not clear that you need to add the subclass

<cyns> mk: I don't mind adding it, but wasn't sure if that was a good practice

<cyns> rs: should be "textbox or searchbox and one of the following"

<cyns> mk: we don't do that in other places

<cyns> rs: I know. but it makes is more clear

<cyns> mk: we don't do that for menu

<cyns> rs: menu can have any mix of those things, can be any order, etc. but, this... it has to be a textbox or search box and one of hte other. you couldn't have 3 tree grids, or a textbox and a searchbox

<cyns> jd: an advantage I see in being very explicit in this case is that you can't, for example, have a password. being explicit makes that mroe clear

<cyns> +1 to joanie

<Zakim> joanie, you wanted to suggest it may be necessary

<cyns> rs: Freedom Scientific raised this issue: it needs to be a modal dialog box

<cyns> mk: glenn backed away. let's talk about it later

<cyns> mk: second change is in the 3rd paragraph. added "aria-controls"

<cyns> cs: +1

<cyns> mk: got more convinced as I looked at examples. there might be a lot of divs and images and stuff. it seems like good coding sense, and made coding easier to have the explicit relationship

<cyns> rs: call that a popup element?

<cyns> mk: already there

<cyns> mk: clarified active-descendant

<cyns> js: be more explicit about only list items?

<cyns> mk: cover that in best practices

<cyns> rs: what about dialog box. should it say owns instead of in?

<cyns> mk: already says that

<cyns> rs: doesn't say it contains or owns the popup

<cyns> rs: see it now

<cyns> mk: new paragraph refering to aria 1.0 spec and that the pattern has changed. user agents and at should continue to support

<cyns> rs: looks good

<cyns> mk: editorial question. should there be a link to the 1.0 spec.

<cyns> cs: yes, nice to have

<cyns> js: example 5 doesn't have an aria-controls

<cyns> mk: good catch. will fix

<cyns> rs: my issue is around the dialog. I would like to require that if you're going to use a dialog, it must be modal

<cyns> rs: don't want people tabbing off the end of the dialog

<cyns> mk: all dialogs should be containing the tab ring whether they're modal

<cyns> mk: non-modal allows clicking or keyboard out of dialog

<cyns> rs: I don't see anywhere that syas you can't tab outside a non-modal dialgo

<cyns> mk: a non-modal dialog in authoring practice pattern is that author provides a method for moving focus outside the dialog

<cyns> rs: I don' thtink the user agent does that

<cyns> bg: you can get trapped

<cyns> mk: I think rich raised a separate issue that isn't about comboboxes. Rich made an assumption about dialogs that I didn't think was accurate.

<cyns> mk: I think you implied that if a dialog is non-modal then you can tab out of it

<cyns> rssagent, make minutes

<cyns> * I didn't do that right. can someone make minutes?

<jamesn> rrs not rss

<scribe> scribe: Rich

Rich: I want an aria MUST for dialogs in comoboxes to be modal

JamesN: I agree with Rich. Why should the dialog child be any different?

Summary of Action Items <>[NEW] ACTION: clown to remove mappings for text [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#action02 <http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#action02>]
[NEW] ACTION: cyns to talk into narrator team about feasibility of echoing rendered text in role=password [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#action03 <http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#action03>]
[NEW] ACTION: joanie to figure out to preserve text and then remove it [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#action01 <http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#action01>]
[NEW] ACTION: Joanmaire: Add text to aria-owns to address issue 701 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#action04 <http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#action04>]
[NEW] ACTION: Joanmarie: Add text to aria-owns to address issue 701 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#action05 <http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#action05>]
 
Summary of Resolutions <>
put password into 1.1 editors draft, meet with security group, communicate with AT vendors to speak rendered text <https://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#resolution01>
move issue 742 to ARIA 2.0 <https://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-aria-minutes.html#resolution02>[End of minutes]




Rich Schwerdtfeger