- From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
- Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 18:13:27 +0100
- To: W3C Public Annotation List <public-annotation@w3.org>
- Message-Id: <89F0BE50-011D-45AD-BD28-674ACDE59E62@w3.org>
See
https://www.w3.org/2016/02/05-annotation-minutes.html <https://www.w3.org/2016/02/05-annotation-minutes.html>
text version below
Ivan
----
Ivan Herman, W3C
Digital Publishing Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
05 Feb 2016
[2]Agenda
[2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2016Feb/0004.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2016/02/05-annotation-irc
Attendees
Present
Ivan Herman, Rob Sanderson (azaroth), Tim Cole, Benjamin
Young (bigbluehat), Paolo Ciccarese, Ben De Meester,
Takeshi_Kanai, Randall_Leeds
Regrets
Frederick Hirsch, Dan Whaley, Jon Udell, Nick Stenning,
Doug Schepers
Chair
Rob_Sanderson
Scribe
Paolo
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Scribe selection, Agenda Review, Announcements?
2. [6]Minutes Approval
3. [7]F2F Logistics
4. [8]Issues
1. [9]#117 - renderedVia
2. [10]https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/133
3. [11]https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/134
4. [12]https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/141
5. [13]https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/143
* [14]Summary of Action Items
* [15]Summary of Resolutions
__________________________________________________________
Scribe selection, Agenda Review, Announcements?
<azaroth> Scribe: Paolo
<azaroth> Scribenick: PaoloCiccarese
Announcement: Paolo left and rejoin as an Invited Expert
(change of status)
Ivan: relevant for this group (major users) IDPF published
first draft of EPUB 3.1
... group that is a major user
... IDPF waiting for a version of the model they can refer to
to replace the Community Group draft
Minutes Approval
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Minutes of the previous call are approved:
[16]https://www.w3.org/2016/01/27-annotation-minutes.html
[16] https://www.w3.org/2016/01/27-annotation-minutes.html
RESOLUTION: Minutes of the previous call are approved:
[17]https://www.w3.org/2016/01/27-annotation-minutes.html
[17] https://www.w3.org/2016/01/27-annotation-minutes.html
F2F Logistics
Rob: At the end of the call last week a Wikipage has been
created for working at the Agenda
<azaroth>
[18]https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/73180/anno-f2f-berlin-2016/
[18] https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/73180/anno-f2f-berlin-2016/
Rob: and a poll for the attandance
... to know who is going to be at the meeting
... any further announcements about F2F?
Issues
#117 - renderedVia
Issue: [19]https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/117
[19] https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/117
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-27 -
Https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/117. Please
complete additional details at
<[20]http://www.w3.org/annotation/track/issues/27/edit>.
[20] http://www.w3.org/annotation/track/issues/27/edit
<azaroth> [21]https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/117
[21] https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/117
Benjamin: do we have enough to get to a conclusion?
Rob: Can you summarize?
Benjamin: the objective is to include information on how the
document was rendered
... in hypothes.is some were rendered in PDF or HTML and so on
that have different representations
... annotation in the browser has little knowledge of the PDF
features
... HTML pointers and XPath would do the selection
... knowing the original source format would help with
optimizing the selectors usage
Rob: add renderVia property with SoftwareAgent as range
... with softwareVersion for the version of the PDF viewer for
example
Ivan: no problem with the idea but worried about "do we want to
set the schema.org property as required vocabulary? Isn't
better to keep that open for using other vocabularies?"
... it seems it goes beyond our scope as there are other
vocabularies
... that can be used for this
Rob: Banjamin how critical is software Version in respect to
the other properties?
Benjamin: don't think i it is a deal breaker, we can switch
back to another vocabulary such as DC
... schema.org seemed clearer in the definition
Ivan: I am ok to put in the document that schema.org is
preferred but not required
... I would not block this feature either if everybody thinks
it is needed
takeshi: what is the expected behavior when the client finds
these properties?
... should the software be opening that specific software for
rendering?
Benjamin: it is not expected, but if you have access you could
... it is more to keep historical info of what happened
... not a requirement for pushing to retrieve the right viewer
... more for using the proper selectors
... and optimizing the selectors usage
<azaroth> +1 to MAY
<bigbluehat> yes. renderedVia would be entirely optional
TimCole: renderVia I would assume is optional
... should be put as "this is how you would do it not because
it is the only way that you can do it but more it is serving
this use case better"
... has to be optional and a non normative approach
... not a hard requirement
<bigbluehat> this originating email has more of the backstory
and thinking (and the emphasis on it being optional)
[22]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015
Nov/0226.html
[22] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Nov/0226.html
TimCole: to provide guidance
PaoloCiccarese: I think we've gotten to something weird things,
if I understand, it's only about the rendering. I can load a
PDF in my pdf.js viewer
... I see the PDF rendered as HTML. I annotate it, and I know
the doc is a PDF, but that it was rendered via PDF.js
... rather than some other system that displays PDFs and
understands the encoding structure, so produces different HTML,
and thus different actors
bigbluehat: Yes, they create HTML representations, and
selectors could be generic for PDF like a text range or
whatever, but to use renderedVia would be to use a DOM based
selector as an optimization
... Then you can more quickly process those selectors, or try
them first
... there's readium.js, epub.js and they have drastically
different dom representations
... would be a waste of time to use the selectors in a
rendering engine they weren't created against
... so just an optimization
PaoloCiccarese: I wonder if I write an application, then I know
what I can understand. If I see something I don't understand,
i'll ignore it
bigbluehat: There was a similar assumption at hypothes.is. You
can't tell without looking at the URL and hoping .pdf is a PDF,
which it isn't always
... without the context of knowing the client's rendering
engine, you wouldn't know what to do. Also, the DOM structure
would change a lot with different versions of pdf.js
... if we had version numbers, then you could do more
optimizations
... the closed world assumption breaks across versions, so
better to record the information at the time
... As much information, if optional, as possible would be
better for people in the future
PaoloCiccarese: That last is convincing for me. the HTML is
really scrambled.
... To rephrase then, as an implementer, if I access the same
document and open the HTML version, and have a separate URL for
a PDF of the same content, that's not in scope for this
... the scope here is a renderer in the browser
<bigbluehat> here's an example from the hypothes.is API
[23]https://hypothes.is/api/annotations/AVKyP2vKvTW_3w8Lyvo1
[23] https://hypothes.is/api/annotations/AVKyP2vKvTW_3w8Lyvo1
<scribe> scribenick: PaoloCiccarese
<bigbluehat> recent. like today
azaroth: Are we happy with non normative definition of
renderVIa, do we need to keep the range open?
... what else could be the range?
TimCole: A community might use something different
azaroth: an example that include SoftwareAgaent but make sure
the range is open
<bigbluehat> works for me
<azaroth> PROPOSAL: Add oa:renderedVia, with domain
SpecificResource, and no defined Range. Examples would use
prov:SoftwareAgent, as per generator
<TimCole> +1
<ivan> +1
<azaroth> +1
<bigbluehat> +1
<takeshi> +1
+1
RESOLUTION: Add oa:renderedVia, with domain SpecificResource,
and no defined Range. Examples would use prov:SoftwareAgent, as
per generator
[24]https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/133
[24] https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/133
azaroth: What we can normatively reference
... my proposal is to put anon normative space to the list
Ivan: not sure
azaroth: we can put it in the spacs and look for feedback
Ivan: what is exactly the proposal?
azaroth: would be nice to have a reference to the list but
where to put such reference?
... probably easier to have the link in the document rather
then the end of it
... for readers
<ivan>
[25]https://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/media-types.xh
tml ?
[25] https://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/media-types.xhtml
Ivan: is the proposal to refer to the list of media-types?
<bigbluehat> works for me.
Ivan: we can try that
... I agree
azaroth: any disagrememnt to add the link to the media-types?
<azaroth> PROPOSAL: Refer to
[26]https://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/media-types.xh
tml in the main body of the model and vocabulary specifications
[26] https://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/media-types.xhtml
<ivan> +1
<azaroth> +1
<TimCole> +1
<bjdmeest> +1
+1
RESOLUTION: Refer to
[27]https://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/media-types.xh
tml in the main body of the model and vocabulary specifications
[27] https://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/media-types.xhtml
<bigbluehat> +1
[28]https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/134
[28] https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/134
<bigbluehat> s/(sorry)//
<azaroth>
[29]http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry/la
nguage-subtag-registry
[29] http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry/language-subtag-registry
azaroth: there is also a registry of language tags at IANA
... list of languages
takeshi: I think that the JSON-LD covers sub-language as well?
en_US for example
<bigbluehat> agree with takeshi
Ivan: that is correct
<azaroth> +1 to takeshi
Ivan: then what we could do is to refer to the I18N reference
<ivan>
[30]http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/
[30] http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/
Ivan: it is like saying see that for further info
<azaroth> PROPOSAL: Refer to
[31]http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/
informatively regarding languages
http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/
+1
<bigbluehat> +1
<ivan> +1
<takeshi> +1
<azaroth> PROPOSAL: Refer to
[32]http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/
informatively regarding languages and verify with I18N review
[32] http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/
<TimCole> +1
<azaroth> +1
<ivan> +1
RESOLUTION: Refer to
[33]http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/
informatively regarding languages and verify with I18N review
[33] http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/
[34]https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/141
[34] https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/141
azaroth: Issues around dates
Ivan: the point is that the model is now requires to fill in
the full date-time so I need to make up times
... we could be less precise and allow for union of different
types
... or we can define a union ourself (more complicated)
<ivan> DCMI definition: dcterms:W3CDTF
Ivan: Dublin Core uses
<ivan> Formal definition is here:
[35]http://dublincore.org/documents/dcmi-terms/#terms-W3CDTF
[35] http://dublincore.org/documents/dcmi-terms/#terms-W3CDTF
Ivan: dcterms:W3CDTF
... covers the different time/dates formats
... we could use that as a DataType
... we can put dates without time
<ivan> Examples for allowed forms:
[36]https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/141#issuecomme
nt-174576427
[36] https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/141#issuecomment-174576427
azaroth: do we use this for all dates in the model?
TimCole: inclined to agree but it will make an annotation
qualified by just the year as compliant
Ivan: the dates will need to be parsed by software and
understood, implementation more complex
TimCole: less precise filtering
Ivan: I have the impression that people will produce complete
datetimes anyway
... but if I only really need the date
... I could put just that
... without the T00:12:12
TimCole: agree
Ivan: by referring to that we ask the implementation to handle
that
azaroth: do we still recommand one format and allow for all the
others?
Ivan: that is less permissive than the usual libraries but it
means that you can write dates with different precision
azaroth: given annotation will be mostly created by machines...
precise about tiem
... so we recoommend to be precise down to seconds and allow
for the other
Ivan: I would probably store the format that matches the input
... so I turned into a date but keep the original
precision/format
... I would propose we adopt this but we explicitly say in the
document as a feature at risk saying that implementations feels
that is to complex to handle
... we might go back to use DateTime
... feature at risk
<azaroth> PROPOSAL: Adopt dc:W3CDTF as feature-at-risk, to fall
back to xsd:datetime. Recommend full ISO8601 form.
+1 (with some chills)
<TimCole> +1
<azaroth> +1
<ivan> +1
<takeshi> +1
<bjdmeest> +1
RESOLUTION: Adopt dc:W3CDTF as feature-at-risk, to fall back to
xsd:datetime. Recommend full ISO8601 form.
[37]https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/143
[37] https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/143
azaroth: do we also want to have intervals?
Ivan: don't remember a precise use case
azaroth: Time state is the document at this point in time
Ivan: I could say I talk about this document between two dates
... this is restricted to Time State
... not to all time sin general
takeshi: Time State would work for hand writing?
... handwriting takes time and it is an ongoing process we
could keep track of
... could we use those for this purpose
Ivan: we tried to concentrate on one thing to not open it too
much
... and becomes uncontrollable
... the notion of interval would apply to many thing but we
should not do that
azaroth: we can come up with a proposal and put it for next
week
<ivan> -- adjurned
<ivan> trackbot, end telcon
Summary of Action Items
Summary of Resolutions
1. [38]Minutes of the previous call are approved:
https://www.w3.org/2016/01/27-annotation-minutes.html
2. [39]Add oa:renderedVia, with domain SpecificResource, and
no defined Range. Examples would use prov:SoftwareAgent, as
per generator
3. [40]Refer to
https://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/media-types.xh
tml in the main body of the model and vocabulary
specifications
4. [41]Refer to
http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/
informatively regarding languages and verify with I18N
review
5. [42]Adopt dc:W3CDTF as feature-at-risk, to fall back to
xsd:datetime. Recommend full ISO8601 form.
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [43]scribe.perl version
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$Date: 2016/02/05 17:10:49 $
[43] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[44] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Received on Friday, 5 February 2016 17:13:43 UTC