- From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
- Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 18:12:18 +0200
- To: W3C Public Annotation List <public-annotation@w3.org>
- Message-Id: <0AD09C21-BEA7-4AFB-956A-6C86E58DFD0D@w3.org>
Meeting minutes:
https://www.w3.org/2016/04/22-annotation-minutes.html
Textual version below
Ivan
----
Ivan Herman, W3C
Digital Publishing Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
22 Apr 2016
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2016/04/22-annotation-irc
[3]Agenda
[3] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2016Apr/0071.html
Attendees
Present
Rob Sanderson, Tim Cole, Shane McCarron, Ivan Herman,
Benjamin Young, Randall Leeds, TB Dinesh, Davis
Salisbury, Takeshi Kanai, Paolo Ciccarese, Dan Whaley
Regrets
Ben de Meester
Chair
Rob_Sanderson, Tim_Cole
Scribe
azaroth, tilgovi
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Agenda Review, Announcements
2. [6]Minutes Approval
3. [7]Testing
4. [8]Issues
* [9]Summary of Action Items
* [10]Summary of Resolutions
__________________________________________________________
<azaroth> trackbot, start meeting
<Loqi> *sniff*
<azaroth> scribenick: azaroth
TimCole: Let's get started
Agenda Review, Announcements
TimCole: (walks through agenda) Anything else we need to talk
about?
... Okay. Want to announce that at the next couple of DPUB IG
meetings will have topics of interest for this group
<TimCole> [11]http://spec-ops.github.io/html-note/index.html
[11] http://spec-ops.github.io/html-note/index.html
TimCole: Draft note from Shane, any background?
ShaneM: Happy to. Short story is, A11y folks and DPUB folks
have talked about the need for semantically rich way of marking
up notes
... HTML is not good at this. Gathered some ideas a year ago
and recently revised
... Possible to do as an HTML extension. Can implement as what
was called a web component
... Revived the interest in that, put together a skeleton, and
going to see if there's support in the IG to move forwards
TimCole: Would be nice to have that. There's a reference to the
WAWG doc, so feedback would be welcome
... Not sure if this relates to Doug's interest in HTML
serialization issues
shepazu: Not sure if this is related or a separate branch. What
I tried was very similar
TimCole: Other thing, the following week (May 2) has a
discussion of WDs of our group
... Rob and I will be on the call, and try to describe where we
are
... see if there's feedback on the drafts. Might be useful to
have it before Berlin, so we can discuss any feedback
... Ivan any thing else? (no)
... Other announcements?
Minutes Approval
<TimCole> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Minutes of the previous call are
approved:
[12]https://www.w3.org/2016/04/15-annotation-minutes.html
[12] https://www.w3.org/2016/04/15-annotation-minutes.html
RESOLUTION: Minutes of the previous call are approved:
[13]https://www.w3.org/2016/04/15-annotation-minutes.html
[13] https://www.w3.org/2016/04/15-annotation-minutes.html
Testing
TimCole: First, need to get a sense of progress and what we
need.
... Can you review for the group, Shane?
ShaneM: We've done some thinking and there's some momentum to
get the infrastructure in place
<TimCole>
[14]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2016
Apr/0077.html
[14] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2016Apr/0077.html
ShaneM: But that's where we're at, haven't solved any problem
yet
... Talked with web platform tests to see if that's the right
place, and it seems to be
<TimCole> [15]https://github.com/Spec-Ops/web-platform-tests
[15] https://github.com/Spec-Ops/web-platform-tests
ShaneM: The reason that was a question at all is that those
tests are about exercising user agents
... And components are not UA centric. So didn't want to
violate principles, or step on toes
... We can drive the testing from the browser, which is good,
people used to running W3C tests will be familiar with
interface
... have set aside the question of is it possible to automate
the testing of clients when selecting parts of documents
... Can be manual intervention though
<shepazu> conversation on public-test-infra
[16]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-test-infra/2016
AprJun/0000.html
[16] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-test-infra/2016AprJun/0000.html
ShaneM: For a given assertion, eg a MUST in the rec, that say
the annotation takes a certain form
... there's a couple of different ways to do it, but we can
express tests in a declarative way with sample data
... Select the region, run it through the client and push the
data to make sure it has the right form
... that sort of testing.
... Don't think this is anything new, but we now have a model
in mind and some people to put it together
... There'll be some back end tooling for the web platform test
environment
... to support the declarative test cases
... and a folder to put the tests in. Then running them is just
select the folder and say run the tests
... it'll run the automated ones for you. If you're a testing
geek it's very interesting :)
... I'll send out a mail to the group for an example test
... Spec Ops has taken it on, as it's tightly coupled to the
projects that we already have funded
... was able to finesse it in
... Don't have funding for annotation, but we need it elsewhere
(Payments)
shepazu: Another question came up... Shane's initial one was
should we do client side testing
... The testing methodologies for related things were like
checking for self consistency and the shape of the data
... Ontology/vocab specs has just been to test consistency, not
the implementation
... Exception for CSVW
... Wanted to see what the feeling of the group was
<ShaneM> good question!
shepazu: Should test what the user agents generate, but could
be just is it consistent
... Should we test both or just one?
<tilgovi> Yes
<tilgovi> Both
TimCole: The tests as described involve whether its consistent
with the model
<ShaneM> Servers MUST be tested for the protocol spec.
TimCole: but semantics harder to test
<bigbluehat> +1 to both
ivan: One thing is that we have implementations, some are here
in the group, that are not specifically browser based in the
way that I understand the web platform to work
... one of the differences might be that the media on which the
annotations happen are not HTML but say images
... we need the implementations, they're equally valid for the
CR or should be, and whether that fits the testing model?
<ShaneM> it fits the model.
ivan: in some sense the extreme case, but perhaps for purely
timing reasons, might have implementations that are part of an
epub reader
... have two, one mainly, but are completely out of the browser
picture
... Other question is that I presume this doesn't relate to the
protocol testing?
... Presume has to go through some different means? And also,
agree that both should be tested, but on a practical level if
we have timing then the priority is the testing of the model
<bigbluehat> to be clear, all we can test is the Web Annotation
Data Model serialization provided from the clients--where that
JSON hits the testing code (browser, server, command line) is a
matter of deployment
ivan: that's what's critical to have the CR phase complete
<ShaneM> ePub reader testing could be done here - but the
connection between the ePub reader and the test environment is
an exercise for the ePub reader implementor
ivan: Have to be careful on priorities
shepazu: There's a class of user agent that won't be able to
use the test framework, so the tests themselves should run in
both the platform and elsewhere
... for those user agents that aren't browser based, we could
do self reporting
... need a validator that they send their output to
... Here is the JSON-LD, I'll put it in this form for the test,
and the test gets run
... does that seem reasonable?
... if we should test the UAs, the spec is written so its
largely about the vocab, not the UAs
... not sure if we need a different spec to talk about what a
UA should do
... don't have a strong opinion
... Could add normative assertions to the spec for conformance
of UAs, which would help with testing
<bigbluehat> we can't test what isn't spec'd, and we haven't
spec'd UA conformance and (under this current charter) we don't
have time
shepazu: maybe just at the beginning, UAs of this class, must
do bla bla bla
... then apply it to the different clients
... recap existing assertions as applying to the generator of
the content, rather than the model itself
<bigbluehat> browser-based UA's won't have the same conformance
requirements as a screen-scraper (for instance)
<Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to mention that it would be possible
to provide an endpoint on the web platform tests to which an
ePub reader could push their annotation or whatever
ShaneM: if any epub reader implemented the protocol we
couldprovide a testing endpoint
... the framework could open another endpoint for annotations
... we're going to put that framework together regardless
... your point is really good Doug, there's hardly any
discussion of UA requirement sin the spec right now
... I don't have an opinion on whether the group shuold define
these or not
... If you do, I encourage you to do it as a profile. They
don't have to support all annotations, but they have to support
them in the way you define it.
... You have a lot of different ways of using annotation.
<Zakim> azaroth, you wanted to describe image case
TimCole: Let's go forward in the queue for now.
azaroth: Like the image case, it's not native in the browser,
but I think what Shane's just described would work very well
for our types of user agents
... they implemented an early version of the protocol, they
could relatively easily be updated
... we could add the validator endpoint as somewhere to send
the annotations and have the validator run the tests that it
thinks it can based on what it's received
... at least all of the syntactic validation should fit right
in
ivan: On the UA requirement, I am doubtful we can do something
really useful and complete, at least in the lifetime of this
working group.
<azaroth> +1 to Ivan -- priorities important, get what we need
first, then nice to haves around different UAs
<bigbluehat> +1 to focusing on testing and shipping what we've
already spec'd
ivan: If I look at the various types of user agents, from
Hypothesis to epub readers, we have too many and I don't think
we can do a meaningful work on that so it would not be my
priority in view of the time we have
TimeCole: We talked before about grouping some of the features
by things like media type as a way to have like profiles and
acknowledged that no single implementation, as Shane mentioned,
will do it all
... is that what we talked about previously, Ivan?
ivan: yeah.
TimCole: Maybe other implementors on the call have thoughts.
... We talked a couple weeks ago about how we still need to do
the work of identifying, in our documents, what are the
testable features.
... I think we still have to do that.
... Am I right?
ShaneM: I believe you're correct. I know that I had an action
to identify some things. I dind't do that and I apoligize.
... Greg Kellogg did do some of that, in the context of the
discussions we were having.
... Showing how we might craft a declarative test.
<Loqi> gregg has 1 karma
ShaneM: You use a declarative grammar to say "this is what is
to be tested" and then you write a framework that is the script
... We are looking for the possibility that anyone can write a
test. Since the declarative grammar is JSON and you are all
very familiar we JSON that's one fo the reasons we're looking
at this route.
<bigbluehat> here's the draft from gregg
[17]https://gist.github.com/gkellogg/4ff74c27313e95a6b3dcbad6cc
64277a
[17] https://gist.github.com/gkellogg/4ff74c27313e95a6b3dcbad6cc64277a
ShaneM: There's a gist he put up. Thank you, Benjamin.
... I hadn't planned to go through this because it's embryonic,
we just started the work.
<bigbluehat> it's 75% JSON Schema fwiw
ShaneM: If you follow that link, the test is the input about
the test that defines the context and the annotation. It's the
input for a test.
TimCole: Maybe if people look at that you can get more people
to help find and make those declarative tests about the
assertions.
ShaneM: Yes. If we can get a few examples, hopefully we can cut
up the spec and one person can go off and look at a section and
add these testable assertions
<bigbluehat> advantage of declarative is that we can use them
in the browser, via the command line, or an API
TimCole: In the interest of times, I'd like to wrap this
discussion up for the day, in ten minutes or so.
takeshi: I'm implementing a sort of annotation application as a
prototype and that is a native application, not based on the
browser engine.
... Since we are focusing on handwriting, the text selection is
in second priority.
... Even if we receive the text selection annotation from the
server it might be ignored or just show up as an annotation to
that web page.
... That could be different from the expectation for others,
but at this time this is what I am planning to do.
... If the specification requires that any of the feature has
to be implemented in the annotation application, I'm afraid
that my application could not meet that criteria.
TimCole: Would you application be able to send annotations that
you generate as JSON-LD to a validator.
<tbdinesh> how do you test if a feature (such as selection) is
implemented in an annotation appl?
<Zakim> azaroth, you wanted to ask about automation of
declarations from ontology
takeshi: Even though all the annotation data will be sent in
the JSON-LD, we might ignore some annotations we have in
JSON-LD
azaroth: Many of the requirements are in the vocabulary with
which properties they should be used with and whether you can
have more than one, etc
... It may be useful if we create at least stubs of all of the
possible tests going forward, and workin with the IDPF to make
the JSON schema ... there's a lot of shared tooling around what
sorts of tests can be written given the flexibility of RDF and
JSON-LD, but still keeping it within the spec.
... Question then is, is that something that we should look
into? I'm happy to spend a bit of time working on it.
ShaneM: That would be fantastic.
... We envisioned doing certain kinds of exercising
automatically. We have some tooling for that, but let's not
monopolize this meeting.
ivan: Rob almost said everything I wanted to say. I have one
additional thing to add.
... I think having JSON Schema around as an additional tool we
give to current and future implementers would be useful anyway.
... We can have an informative reference on the website
alongside the context file.
ShaneM: Obviously, JSON Schema is much more restrictive in
terms of structure than JSON-LD, but that's okay.
TimCole: I don't think I heard any formal actions, but clearly
members need to look at how these assertions and testable
features are expressed in a declarative way and think about how
to contribute to that.
... The JSON schema would be useful.
... And we have the potential automating of some of the tests.
... We probably need to think about timeline for getting these
things done.
<ShaneM> Here is my ask: Anyone who wants to be looped in, go
to
[18]http://lists.spec-ops.io/listinfo.cgi/testdev-spec-ops.io
and join the list
[18] http://lists.spec-ops.io/listinfo.cgi/testdev-spec-ops.io
TimCole: Can I suggest we make it of prime importance for next
weeks call to think about what we want to get done before the
face to face.
<ShaneM> and yes - let's set a schedule in the next week
TimCole: Does that sound like a way forward? Did I miss
something important?
Issues
TimCole: Issue #200 was should oa:start and oa:end always use
xsd:nonNegativeInteger.
<TimCole> [19]https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/200
[19] https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/200
TimCole: I think we talked about lat week that this proposal
was the way to do it. The answer was yes. We wanted to give
people a chance to think about it for a week.
... Do we need further discussion on this?
azaroth: I think we can make it an editorial action to update
the context.
... The concern that I had that stain proved was not a concern,
whether or not JSON-LD compaction causes nonNegativeInteger to
stick around.
<azaroth> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Accept git issue #200, make
start and end nonNegativeInteger in @context
<ivan> +1
<azaroth> +1
<PaoloCiccarese> +1
<TimCole> +1
<tbdinesh> +1
<takeshi> +1
<davis_salisbury> +1
<ShaneM> I am abstaining - too new here
I can't reproduce the success described.
With compaction removing it.
RESOLUTION: Accept git issue #200, make start and end
nonNegativeInteger in @context
<TimCole> [20]https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/203
[20] https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/203
TimCole: The discussion last week on selectors vs media types,
there was a lot of positive response about what's been put
together.
ivan: I think the idea that came out of some discussion was
that this table should exist, so I sat down on made it. I think
it should go back to the editors to look at.
... There are comments I made in the issue, but I think they
are all editorial.
... I would propose this is something Benjamin, Rob, and I can
handle on email.
<azaroth> +1 with a few minor tweaks (e.g. Fragment should be
either tick or ?, as we don't know future fragment specs and
don't want to suggest they're not to be used)
TimCole: So a proposal would be to put this to editor action.
<azaroth> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Accept proposed media/selector
table towards conformance section of the specs
<azaroth> +1
<TimCole> +1
<ivan> =1
<ivan> +1
<PaoloCiccarese> +1
<takeshi> +1
RESOLUTION: Accept proposed media/selector table towards
conformance section of the specs
<TimCole> [21]https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/195
[21] https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/195
TimCole: Let's take one more issue today.
... this was the issue involving refining state by selector.
... As I understood the thread, there's some confusion about
what is needed here.
ivan: There is a question if I can mix, with some limitations,
the refinements. Can I refine a state with a selector?
... I have the impression that there is no disagreement on that
between us.
azaroth: There are no disagreements on that. It would be good
to be able to refine a state with a selector.
ivan: I would propose to do that, then, and let that be an
editorial action.
azaroth: To be clear, where we may disagree, I think it should
still be possible to have both hasState and hasSelector on a
specific resource.
ivan: I'm saying I'd like to separate these two questions.
TimCole: Can we do that? Can a new issue be created and some
resolution be posted to the issue to Github.
... in the meantime we can close the other issue.
ivan: I think that the issue is saying, can a refinement be
made on a state?
... we can make that a sepraate issue and make it editorial
right away.
TimCole: I want to give people a chance over the week before we
actually close it out.
<TimCole> [22]https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/147
[22] https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/147
TimCole: We don' thave time to talk about HTML serialization in
depth, we don't have time, but there was discussion in 147
... about the challenges in that RDFa people will be using
different labels because you don't have the context available
in RDFa that we have in JSON-LD.
... Do we need to talk about this?
<PaoloCiccarese> +1 to the namespace
ivan: To have that namespace document before the end of the WG
is probably a good idea.
... I can look at doing it, or someone else can. At this moment
I cannot do it and I think it should not have a high priority
for the coming weeks.
TimCole: Let's leave it in there and we'll get to it after
Berlin, I guess.
ivan: A question to Rob.
... Rob, I am in a complete mess right now... what happens to
the vocabulary file and the context file that should be pushed
on to /ns?
... I haven't done anything on installing it on the W3C side
because I have no idea where we are.
azaroth: I'm in the same state, I must admit.
ivan: At some point we have to do that. We are already out of
sync.
... By the time we go to CR, when tests become available, these
things should be in sync.
TimCole: Anything else?
... Thanks, everybody. We'll talk next week.
<ivan> trackbot, end telcon
Summary of Action Items
Summary of Resolutions
1. [23]Minutes of the previous call are approved:
https://www.w3.org/2016/04/15-annotation-minutes.html
2. [24]Accept git issue #200, make start and end
nonNegativeInteger in @context
3. [25]Accept proposed media/selector table towards
conformance section of the specs
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [26]scribe.perl version
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$Date: 2016/04/22 16:09:52 $
[26] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[27] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Received on Friday, 22 April 2016 16:12:24 UTC