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Meeting minutes, 2016-04-22

From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 18:12:18 +0200
Message-Id: <0AD09C21-BEA7-4AFB-956A-6C86E58DFD0D@w3.org>
To: W3C Public Annotation List <public-annotation@w3.org>
Meeting minutes:

https://www.w3.org/2016/04/22-annotation-minutes.html

Textual version below

Ivan

----
Ivan Herman, W3C
Digital Publishing Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704


   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

              Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference

22 Apr 2016

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2016/04/22-annotation-irc

   [3]Agenda

      [3] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2016Apr/0071.html

Attendees

   Present
          Rob Sanderson, Tim Cole, Shane McCarron, Ivan Herman,
          Benjamin Young, Randall Leeds, TB Dinesh, Davis
          Salisbury, Takeshi Kanai, Paolo Ciccarese, Dan Whaley

   Regrets
          Ben de Meester

   Chair
          Rob_Sanderson, Tim_Cole

   Scribe
          azaroth, tilgovi

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Agenda Review, Announcements
         2. [6]Minutes Approval
         3. [7]Testing
         4. [8]Issues
     * [9]Summary of Action Items
     * [10]Summary of Resolutions
     __________________________________________________________

   <azaroth> trackbot, start meeting

   <Loqi> *sniff*

   <azaroth> scribenick: azaroth

   TimCole: Let's get started

Agenda Review, Announcements

   TimCole: (walks through agenda) Anything else we need to talk
   about?
   ... Okay. Want to announce that at the next couple of DPUB IG
   meetings will have topics of interest for this group

   <TimCole> [11]http://spec-ops.github.io/html-note/index.html

     [11] http://spec-ops.github.io/html-note/index.html

   TimCole: Draft note from Shane, any background?

   ShaneM: Happy to. Short story is, A11y folks and DPUB folks
   have talked about the need for semantically rich way of marking
   up notes
   ... HTML is not good at this. Gathered some ideas a year ago
   and recently revised
   ... Possible to do as an HTML extension. Can implement as what
   was called a web component
   ... Revived the interest in that, put together a skeleton, and
   going to see if there's support in the IG to move forwards

   TimCole: Would be nice to have that. There's a reference to the
   WAWG doc, so feedback would be welcome
   ... Not sure if this relates to Doug's interest in HTML
   serialization issues

   shepazu: Not sure if this is related or a separate branch. What
   I tried was very similar

   TimCole: Other thing, the following week (May 2) has a
   discussion of WDs of our group
   ... Rob and I will be on the call, and try to describe where we
   are
   ... see if there's feedback on the drafts. Might be useful to
   have it before Berlin, so we can discuss any feedback
   ... Ivan any thing else? (no)
   ... Other announcements?

Minutes Approval

   <TimCole> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Minutes of the previous call are
   approved:
   [12]https://www.w3.org/2016/04/15-annotation-minutes.html

     [12] https://www.w3.org/2016/04/15-annotation-minutes.html

   RESOLUTION: Minutes of the previous call are approved:
   [13]https://www.w3.org/2016/04/15-annotation-minutes.html

     [13] https://www.w3.org/2016/04/15-annotation-minutes.html

Testing

   TimCole: First, need to get a sense of progress and what we
   need.
   ... Can you review for the group, Shane?

   ShaneM: We've done some thinking and there's some momentum to
   get the infrastructure in place

   <TimCole>
   [14]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2016
   Apr/0077.html

     [14] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2016Apr/0077.html

   ShaneM: But that's where we're at, haven't solved any problem
   yet
   ... Talked with web platform tests to see if that's the right
   place, and it seems to be

   <TimCole> [15]https://github.com/Spec-Ops/web-platform-tests

     [15] https://github.com/Spec-Ops/web-platform-tests

   ShaneM: The reason that was a question at all is that those
   tests are about exercising user agents
   ... And components are not UA centric. So didn't want to
   violate principles, or step on toes
   ... We can drive the testing from the browser, which is good,
   people used to running W3C tests will be familiar with
   interface
   ... have set aside the question of is it possible to automate
   the testing of clients when selecting parts of documents
   ... Can be manual intervention though

   <shepazu> conversation on public-test-infra
   [16]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-test-infra/2016
   AprJun/0000.html

     [16] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-test-infra/2016AprJun/0000.html

   ShaneM: For a given assertion, eg a MUST in the rec, that say
   the annotation takes a certain form
   ... there's a couple of different ways to do it, but we can
   express tests in a declarative way with sample data
   ... Select the region, run it through the client and push the
   data to make sure it has the right form
   ... that sort of testing.
   ... Don't think this is anything new, but we now have a model
   in mind and some people to put it together
   ... There'll be some back end tooling for the web platform test
   environment
   ... to support the declarative test cases
   ... and a folder to put the tests in. Then running them is just
   select the folder and say run the tests
   ... it'll run the automated ones for you. If you're a testing
   geek it's very interesting :)
   ... I'll send out a mail to the group for an example test
   ... Spec Ops has taken it on, as it's tightly coupled to the
   projects that we already have funded
   ... was able to finesse it in
   ... Don't have funding for annotation, but we need it elsewhere
   (Payments)

   shepazu: Another question came up... Shane's initial one was
   should we do client side testing
   ... The testing methodologies for related things were like
   checking for self consistency and the shape of the data
   ... Ontology/vocab specs has just been to test consistency, not
   the implementation
   ... Exception for CSVW
   ... Wanted to see what the feeling of the group was

   <ShaneM> good question!

   shepazu: Should test what the user agents generate, but could
   be just is it consistent
   ... Should we test both or just one?

   <tilgovi> Yes

   <tilgovi> Both

   TimCole: The tests as described involve whether its consistent
   with the model

   <ShaneM> Servers MUST be tested for the protocol spec.

   TimCole: but semantics harder to test

   <bigbluehat> +1 to both

   ivan: One thing is that we have implementations, some are here
   in the group, that are not specifically browser based in the
   way that I understand the web platform to work
   ... one of the differences might be that the media on which the
   annotations happen are not HTML but say images
   ... we need the implementations, they're equally valid for the
   CR or should be, and whether that fits the testing model?

   <ShaneM> it fits the model.

   ivan: in some sense the extreme case, but perhaps for purely
   timing reasons, might have implementations that are part of an
   epub reader
   ... have two, one mainly, but are completely out of the browser
   picture
   ... Other question is that I presume this doesn't relate to the
   protocol testing?
   ... Presume has to go through some different means? And also,
   agree that both should be tested, but on a practical level if
   we have timing then the priority is the testing of the model

   <bigbluehat> to be clear, all we can test is the Web Annotation
   Data Model serialization provided from the clients--where that
   JSON hits the testing code (browser, server, command line) is a
   matter of deployment

   ivan: that's what's critical to have the CR phase complete

   <ShaneM> ePub reader testing could be done here - but the
   connection between the ePub reader and the test environment is
   an exercise for the ePub reader implementor

   ivan: Have to be careful on priorities

   shepazu: There's a class of user agent that won't be able to
   use the test framework, so the tests themselves should run in
   both the platform and elsewhere
   ... for those user agents that aren't browser based, we could
   do self reporting
   ... need a validator that they send their output to
   ... Here is the JSON-LD, I'll put it in this form for the test,
   and the test gets run
   ... does that seem reasonable?
   ... if we should test the UAs, the spec is written so its
   largely about the vocab, not the UAs
   ... not sure if we need a different spec to talk about what a
   UA should do
   ... don't have a strong opinion
   ... Could add normative assertions to the spec for conformance
   of UAs, which would help with testing

   <bigbluehat> we can't test what isn't spec'd, and we haven't
   spec'd UA conformance and (under this current charter) we don't
   have time

   shepazu: maybe just at the beginning, UAs of this class, must
   do bla bla bla
   ... then apply it to the different clients
   ... recap existing assertions as applying to the generator of
   the content, rather than the model itself

   <bigbluehat> browser-based UA's won't have the same conformance
   requirements as a screen-scraper (for instance)

   <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to mention that it would be possible
   to provide an endpoint on the web platform tests to which an
   ePub reader could push their annotation or whatever

   ShaneM: if any epub reader implemented the protocol we
   couldprovide a testing endpoint
   ... the framework could open another endpoint for annotations
   ... we're going to put that framework together regardless
   ... your point is really good Doug, there's hardly any
   discussion of UA requirement sin the spec right now
   ... I don't have an opinion on whether the group shuold define
   these or not
   ... If you do, I encourage you to do it as a profile. They
   don't have to support all annotations, but they have to support
   them in the way you define it.
   ... You have a lot of different ways of using annotation.

   <Zakim> azaroth, you wanted to describe image case

   TimCole: Let's go forward in the queue for now.

   azaroth: Like the image case, it's not native in the browser,
   but I think what Shane's just described would work very well
   for our types of user agents
   ... they implemented an early version of the protocol, they
   could relatively easily be updated
   ... we could add the validator endpoint as somewhere to send
   the annotations and have the validator run the tests that it
   thinks it can based on what it's received
   ... at least all of the syntactic validation should fit right
   in

   ivan: On the UA requirement, I am doubtful we can do something
   really useful and complete, at least in the lifetime of this
   working group.

   <azaroth> +1 to Ivan -- priorities important, get what we need
   first, then nice to haves around different UAs

   <bigbluehat> +1 to focusing on testing and shipping what we've
   already spec'd

   ivan: If I look at the various types of user agents, from
   Hypothesis to epub readers, we have too many and I don't think
   we can do a meaningful work on that so it would not be my
   priority in view of the time we have

   TimeCole: We talked before about grouping some of the features
   by things like media type as a way to have like profiles and
   acknowledged that no single implementation, as Shane mentioned,
   will do it all
   ... is that what we talked about previously, Ivan?

   ivan: yeah.

   TimCole: Maybe other implementors on the call have thoughts.
   ... We talked a couple weeks ago about how we still need to do
   the work of identifying, in our documents, what are the
   testable features.
   ... I think we still have to do that.
   ... Am I right?

   ShaneM: I believe you're correct. I know that I had an action
   to identify some things. I dind't do that and I apoligize.
   ... Greg Kellogg did do some of that, in the context of the
   discussions we were having.
   ... Showing how we might craft a declarative test.

   <Loqi> gregg has 1 karma

   ShaneM: You use a declarative grammar to say "this is what is
   to be tested" and then you write a framework that is the script
   ... We are looking for the possibility that anyone can write a
   test. Since the declarative grammar is JSON and you are all
   very familiar we JSON that's one fo the reasons we're looking
   at this route.

   <bigbluehat> here's the draft from gregg
   [17]https://gist.github.com/gkellogg/4ff74c27313e95a6b3dcbad6cc
   64277a

     [17] https://gist.github.com/gkellogg/4ff74c27313e95a6b3dcbad6cc64277a

   ShaneM: There's a gist he put up. Thank you, Benjamin.
   ... I hadn't planned to go through this because it's embryonic,
   we just started the work.

   <bigbluehat> it's 75% JSON Schema fwiw

   ShaneM: If you follow that link, the test is the input about
   the test that defines the context and the annotation. It's the
   input for a test.

   TimCole: Maybe if people look at that you can get more people
   to help find and make those declarative tests about the
   assertions.

   ShaneM: Yes. If we can get a few examples, hopefully we can cut
   up the spec and one person can go off and look at a section and
   add these testable assertions

   <bigbluehat> advantage of declarative is that we can use them
   in the browser, via the command line, or an API

   TimCole: In the interest of times, I'd like to wrap this
   discussion up for the day, in ten minutes or so.

   takeshi: I'm implementing a sort of annotation application as a
   prototype and that is a native application, not based on the
   browser engine.
   ... Since we are focusing on handwriting, the text selection is
   in second priority.
   ... Even if we receive the text selection annotation from the
   server it might be ignored or just show up as an annotation to
   that web page.
   ... That could be different from the expectation for others,
   but at this time this is what I am planning to do.
   ... If the specification requires that any of the feature has
   to be implemented in the annotation application, I'm afraid
   that my application could not meet that criteria.

   TimCole: Would you application be able to send annotations that
   you generate as JSON-LD to a validator.

   <tbdinesh> how do you test if a feature (such as selection) is
   implemented in an annotation appl?

   <Zakim> azaroth, you wanted to ask about automation of
   declarations from ontology

   takeshi: Even though all the annotation data will be sent in
   the JSON-LD, we might ignore some annotations we have in
   JSON-LD

   azaroth: Many of the requirements are in the vocabulary with
   which properties they should be used with and whether you can
   have more than one, etc
   ... It may be useful if we create at least stubs of all of the
   possible tests going forward, and workin with the IDPF to make
   the JSON schema ... there's a lot of shared tooling around what
   sorts of tests can be written given the flexibility of RDF and
   JSON-LD, but still keeping it within the spec.
   ... Question then is, is that something that we should look
   into? I'm happy to spend a bit of time working on it.

   ShaneM: That would be fantastic.
   ... We envisioned doing certain kinds of exercising
   automatically. We have some tooling for that, but let's not
   monopolize this meeting.

   ivan: Rob almost said everything I wanted to say. I have one
   additional thing to add.
   ... I think having JSON Schema around as an additional tool we
   give to current and future implementers would be useful anyway.
   ... We can have an informative reference on the website
   alongside the context file.

   ShaneM: Obviously, JSON Schema is much more restrictive in
   terms of structure than JSON-LD, but that's okay.

   TimCole: I don't think I heard any formal actions, but clearly
   members need to look at how these assertions and testable
   features are expressed in a declarative way and think about how
   to contribute to that.
   ... The JSON schema would be useful.
   ... And we have the potential automating of some of the tests.
   ... We probably need to think about timeline for getting these
   things done.

   <ShaneM> Here is my ask: Anyone who wants to be looped in, go
   to
   [18]http://lists.spec-ops.io/listinfo.cgi/testdev-spec-ops.io
   and join the list

     [18] http://lists.spec-ops.io/listinfo.cgi/testdev-spec-ops.io

   TimCole: Can I suggest we make it of prime importance for next
   weeks call to think about what we want to get done before the
   face to face.

   <ShaneM> and yes - let's set a schedule in the next week

   TimCole: Does that sound like a way forward? Did I miss
   something important?

Issues

   TimCole: Issue #200 was should oa:start and oa:end always use
   xsd:nonNegativeInteger.

   <TimCole> [19]https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/200

     [19] https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/200

   TimCole: I think we talked about lat week that this proposal
   was the way to do it. The answer was yes. We wanted to give
   people a chance to think about it for a week.
   ... Do we need further discussion on this?

   azaroth: I think we can make it an editorial action to update
   the context.
   ... The concern that I had that stain proved was not a concern,
   whether or not JSON-LD compaction causes nonNegativeInteger to
   stick around.

   <azaroth> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Accept git issue #200, make
   start and end nonNegativeInteger in @context

   <ivan> +1

   <azaroth> +1

   <PaoloCiccarese> +1

   <TimCole> +1

   <tbdinesh> +1

   <takeshi> +1

   <davis_salisbury> +1

   <ShaneM> I am abstaining - too new here

   I can't reproduce the success described.

   With compaction removing it.

   RESOLUTION: Accept git issue #200, make start and end
   nonNegativeInteger in @context

   <TimCole> [20]https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/203

     [20] https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/203

   TimCole: The discussion last week on selectors vs media types,
   there was a lot of positive response about what's been put
   together.

   ivan: I think the idea that came out of some discussion was
   that this table should exist, so I sat down on made it. I think
   it should go back to the editors to look at.
   ... There are comments I made in the issue, but I think they
   are all editorial.
   ... I would propose this is something Benjamin, Rob, and I can
   handle on email.

   <azaroth> +1 with a few minor tweaks (e.g. Fragment should be
   either tick or ?, as we don't know future fragment specs and
   don't want to suggest they're not to be used)

   TimCole: So a proposal would be to put this to editor action.

   <azaroth> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Accept proposed media/selector
   table towards conformance section of the specs

   <azaroth> +1

   <TimCole> +1

   <ivan> =1

   <ivan> +1

   <PaoloCiccarese> +1

   <takeshi> +1

   RESOLUTION: Accept proposed media/selector table towards
   conformance section of the specs

   <TimCole> [21]https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/195

     [21] https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/195

   TimCole: Let's take one more issue today.
   ... this was the issue involving refining state by selector.
   ... As I understood the thread, there's some confusion about
   what is needed here.

   ivan: There is a question if I can mix, with some limitations,
   the refinements. Can I refine a state with a selector?
   ... I have the impression that there is no disagreement on that
   between us.

   azaroth: There are no disagreements on that. It would be good
   to be able to refine a state with a selector.

   ivan: I would propose to do that, then, and let that be an
   editorial action.

   azaroth: To be clear, where we may disagree, I think it should
   still be possible to have both hasState and hasSelector on a
   specific resource.

   ivan: I'm saying I'd like to separate these two questions.

   TimCole: Can we do that? Can a new issue be created and some
   resolution be posted to the issue to Github.
   ... in the meantime we can close the other issue.

   ivan: I think that the issue is saying, can a refinement be
   made on a state?
   ... we can make that a sepraate issue and make it editorial
   right away.

   TimCole: I want to give people a chance over the week before we
   actually close it out.

   <TimCole> [22]https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/147

     [22] https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/147

   TimCole: We don' thave time to talk about HTML serialization in
   depth, we don't have time, but there was discussion in 147
   ... about the challenges in that RDFa people will be using
   different labels because you don't have the context available
   in RDFa that we have in JSON-LD.
   ... Do we need to talk about this?

   <PaoloCiccarese> +1 to the namespace

   ivan: To have that namespace document before the end of the WG
   is probably a good idea.
   ... I can look at doing it, or someone else can. At this moment
   I cannot do it and I think it should not have a high priority
   for the coming weeks.

   TimCole: Let's leave it in there and we'll get to it after
   Berlin, I guess.

   ivan: A question to Rob.
   ... Rob, I am in a complete mess right now... what happens to
   the vocabulary file and the context file that should be pushed
   on to /ns?
   ... I haven't done anything on installing it on the W3C side
   because I have no idea where we are.

   azaroth: I'm in the same state, I must admit.

   ivan: At some point we have to do that. We are already out of
   sync.
   ... By the time we go to CR, when tests become available, these
   things should be in sync.

   TimCole: Anything else?
   ... Thanks, everybody. We'll talk next week.

   <ivan> trackbot, end telcon

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

    1. [23]Minutes of the previous call are approved:
       https://www.w3.org/2016/04/15-annotation-minutes.html
    2. [24]Accept git issue #200, make start and end
       nonNegativeInteger in @context
    3. [25]Accept proposed media/selector table towards
       conformance section of the specs

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________


    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [26]scribe.perl version
    1.144 ([27]CVS log)
    $Date: 2016/04/22 16:09:52 $

     [26] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
     [27] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/





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