- From: Randall Leeds <randall@bleeds.info>
- Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 19:32:23 +0000
- To: Doug Schepers <schepers@w3.org>, Chris Birk <cmbirk@gmail.com>
- Cc: Robert Sanderson <azaroth42@gmail.com>, TB Dinesh <dinesh@servelots.com>, W3C Public Annotation List <public-annotation@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CAAL6JQgz7zD01bQgA=jqSww8StcXrAoasmPd=9qrKSUv9q-+sw@mail.gmail.com>
(top post, sorry)
I think I agree with Jacob that we're talking about different
interpretations. I would like my original email to be interpereted as
saying that I think the one I brought up (tagging the tweet that bears the
hashtag) is fairly clear, but retract any suggestion that it's more correct
than other interpretations. It's correct in its own right as simply one of
possibly several valid statements implied by the hashtag.
And I also agree with Doug that I don't think this raised any issues that
make me question the usefulness or richness of our model. We've managed to
discern multiple possible annotations and articulate unambiguous/distinct
(relative to one another) meanings for them. That's encouraging.
On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 12:20 PM Doug Schepers <schepers@w3.org> wrote:
> Hi, Chris–
>
> On 6/18/15 2:08 PM, Chris Birk wrote:
> > I may be completely off base here, and if so I apologize.
>
> No, you're not off base.
>
>
> > Isn’t this an implementation detail? The body is the tweet (including
> > the hashtag). Twitter may want to model the tweet using annotation tags
> > or treat them as annotations on the tweet. Their system can then pull
> > them out and link to a different resource based on which way they choose
> > to implement it.
>
> This is an implementation detail, and I'm not suggesting we mandate how
> such things are modeled.
>
> I'm simply making sure that the data model can be used to model
> real-world use cases, in a way that doesn't seem to violate the model.
>
> What a hashtag means, or what it applies to, are only tangentially on
> point. I'm simply asking if the model I proposed seemed reasonable, or
> if there is a better way to do it.
>
> At this point, I'm satisfied that the rough example that I wrote is a
> valid way to represent the tweet, unless someone tells me otherwise.
>
> Regards–
> –Doug
>
> > - Chris
> > @cmbirk
> > (317) 418-9384
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 1:44 PM, Randall Leeds <randall@bleeds.info
> > <mailto:randall@bleeds.info>> wrote:
> >
> > In this case, #love means "this tweet expresses love" with the
> > implication that it is the user who loves whatever else the tweet
> > references.
> >
> > Although, you may be right that someone is trying to say, "look at
> > this #love over here (link to some other resource that depicts
> > love", so I'm willing to bet one can construct cases where I'm wrong.
> >
> > However, I'm not sure it hurts to suggest an interpretation since
> > the hashtag is a folksonomic tag that hasn't got a definitive
> > interpretation to begin with, yet the fact that it's used heavily in
> > absence of any other explicit referents suggests to me that the most
> > natural interpretation is as a reflexive tagging of the tweet that
> > contains it.
> >
> > In practice, this is what it does as well: causes that tweet to show
> > up in a search for that tag. It categorizes the tweet, and not any
> > links it contains to other resources, within the Twitter system.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 18, 2015, 10:37 Randall Leeds <randall@bleeds.info
> > <mailto:randall@bleeds.info>> wrote:
> >
> > I tentatively disagree, Rob. When one expresses love about a
> > thing by using #love they generally also include a link to the
> > thing (either by explicitly including it in their tweet or by
> > virtue of using a reply function) but in either case the new
> > tweet is an expression of love (for whatever resources the tweet
> > targets).
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 18, 2015, 10:35 Robert Sanderson
> > <azaroth42@gmail.com <mailto:azaroth42@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > The conflation of tags about the comment and tags about the
> > target is something we should consider carefully when
> > recommending any particular usage of the model in this
> > space. Translating from 140 characters and guessing the
> > user's intent of the #hashtag convention seems unreliable at
> > best.
> >
> > There's many examples of each in the twitter space. A tweet
> > that expresses #love for something is clearly about the
> > reference, not that the user loves their own tweet :)
> >
> > R
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Randall Leeds
> > <randall@bleeds.info <mailto:randall@bleeds.info>> wrote:
> >
> > I have long believed there is a substantive difference
> > between what systems commonly call tags and hashtags,
> > and believe that this is demonstrated in common practice.
> >
> > A tag is often applied to a separate entity.
> >
> > A hashtag is applied to its bearing entity.
> >
> > The example provided, to my mind, should have the tweet
> > text as the target for some annotation.
> >
> > One can get fancier with this and say that each hashtag
> > should be rendered as a separate annotation on the test
> > with positional selectors describing the offsets of the
> > hashtag texts in the tweet text, with the motivation to
> > link these to the full URI expansion of that hashtag
> > (such as the URL of that hashtag's collection/search
> page).
> >
> > For an example of this in the wild, see the app.net
> > <http://app.net> API where mentions, links, hashtags,
> > etc are described by a property of the status update
> > called "annotations".
> >
> > A hashtag annotates the tweet.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 18, 2015, 09:28 Doug Schepers
> > <schepers@w3.org <mailto:schepers@w3.org>> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Dinesh–
> >
> > Thanks for tweaking this.
> >
> > The issue I was trying to resolve was not the
> > distributed part, which
> > you picked up on, but rather the conflict introduced
> > by the data model
> > having a strict separation between tagging and
> > comment bodies.
> >
> > If anyone has any thoughts on that, please let us
> > know. I'm not
> > completely satisfied with my solution, but I can't
> > think how else to do it.
> >
> > Regards–
> > –Doug
> >
> > On 6/18/15 7:09 AM, TB Dinesh wrote:
> > > Thanks Doug for this example.
> > >
> > > The way we have been thinking about this (in the
> > swtr.us <http://swtr.us> framework) is
> > > that annotations will lead to 3rd party services
> > that understand that
> > > this (@id and t1 below) annotation maps to a
> > tweet model and can
> > > assist in tweeting it for you, provided the
> > service is permitted to
> > > look through your annotation repo.
> > >
> > > I will first try to re purpose your JSON-LD
> > example so it reads a bit different.
> > > First the annotation is in a repo some where
> > (rewriting the @id to just
> > > drive home that this object (t1) is identified by
> > another creator --
> > > and not twitter).
> > > Also am using body1, body2 and body3 are local
> > ids (with effective ids
> > > being t1.body1, t1.body2, t1.body3) and dont know
> > what the right
> > > syntax is to do this.
> > > Note that I changed the motivation to tweeting
> > (from commenting) so as
> > > to make it
> > > easy for the 3rd party service to pick this up
> > for tweeting.
> > >
> > > t1:
> > >
> > > {
> > > "@id":
> > "
> https://annotation.repo/azaroth42/607727122975739905",
> > > "@type": "oa:Annotation",
> > > "annotatedBy": "https://twitter.com/azaroth42/
> ",
> > > "annotatedAt": "2015-06-07T12:00:00Z",
> > > "serializedAt": "2013-02-04T17:53:00Z-8",
> > > "body": [
> > > {
> > > "@id": "body1"
> > > "motivation": "oa:tweeting",
> > > "value" : "Been a while. Indexing my phd
> > thesis transcription as
> > > #openannotations towards #iiif search demo
> > implementation",
> > > },
> > > {
> > > "@id": "body2"
> > > "motivation": "oa:tagging",
> > > "value" : "openannotations",
> > > },
> > > {
> > > "@id": "body3"
> > > "motivation": "oa:tagging",
> > > "value" : "iiif",
> > > }
> > > ],
> > > }
> > >
> > > Now #openannotations and tag "openannotations"
> > will get different
> > > services to pick up the intent. Twitter would
> > know what to do with
> > > #openannotations and t1's tags are not very
> > useful for twitter, which
> > > another service can indeed help azaroth42 connect
> > to other meanings of
> > > 42 if any using these tags.
> > >
> > > -d
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Doug Schepers
> > <schepers@w3.org <mailto:schepers@w3.org>> wrote:
> > >> Hi, folks–
> > >>
> > >> We've talked before about how different kinds of
> > popular social media, like
> > >> Twitter tweets or Facebook posts, could be
> > modeled as annotations.
> > >>
> > >> Tim Cole put together a diagram of this [1], and
> > I made a slide inspired by
> > >> Tim's diagram [2] (use the down arrow to step
> > through the slide).
> > >>
> > >> But all the recent talk of multiple bodies and
> > motivations made me realize
> > >> that there may be something hard to represent in
> > the data model: inline
> > >> hashtags in a tweet.
> > >>
> > >> As an example, here's the text from a tweet by
> > Rob Sanderson, from 7 June
> > >> [3], which contains two inline hashtags:
> > >> "Been a while. Indexing my phd thesis
> > transcription as #openannotations
> > >> towards #iiif search demo implementation"
> > >>
> > >> Inline hashtags are pretty common, and they
> > blend tags and comment into a
> > >> single common body. You can't remove the tags
> > from the comment body, because
> > >> they're part of the sentence structure; you
> > can't only represent the tags as
> > >> part of the comment body, because they have
> > special status as search terms
> > >> [4].
> > >>
> > >> How can we model this?
> > >>
> > >> The best I could come up with is to duplicate
> > the hashtags in both the
> > >> comment body and in their own bodies. Here's
> > some example JSON-LD (please
> > >> excuse the imprecise/incorrect inclusion of
> > motivation on each body, it's
> > >> just illustrative.):
> > >>
> > >> {
> > >> "@id":
> > "
> https://twitter.com/azaroth42/status/607727122975739905",
> > >> "@type": "oa:Annotation",
> > >> "annotatedBy": "
> https://twitter.com/azaroth42/",
> > >> "annotatedAt": "2015-06-07T12:00:00Z",
> > >> "serializedAt": "2013-02-04T17:53:00Z-8",
> > >> "body": [
> > >> {
> > >> "@id": "http://example.org/body1"
> > >> "motivation": "oa:commenting",
> > >> "value" : "Been a while. Indexing my phd
> > thesis transcription as
> > >> #openannotations towards #iiif search demo
> > implementation",
> > >> },
> > >> {
> > >> "@id": "http://example.org/body2"
> > >> "motivation": "oa:tagging",
> > >> "value" : "openannotations",
> > >> },
> > >> {
> > >> "@id": "http://example.org/body3"
> > >> "motivation": "oa:tagging",
> > >> "value" : "iiif",
> > >> }
> > >> ],
> > >> }
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Another solution might be to allow nested
> > bodies, but that seems like it
> > >> could get complicated.
> > >>
> > >> Thoughts?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> [1]
> > >>
> >
> http://www.w3.org/Talks/2015/schepers-annotation-journalism/data-model-anatomy.png
> > >> [2]
> > >>
> >
> http://www.w3.org/Talks/2015/schepers-annotation-journalism/data-model-anatomy.svg#showall
> > >> [3]
> >
> https://twitter.com/azaroth42/status/607727122975739905
> > >> [4] https://twitter.com/hashtag/iiif
> > >>
> > >> Regards–
> > >> –Doug
> > >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Rob Sanderson
> > Information Standards Advocate
> > Digital Library Systems and Services
> > Stanford, CA 94305
> >
> >
>
Received on Thursday, 18 June 2015 19:33:03 UTC