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WS-Description Minutes March 27, 2003 - Draft for review

From: Liu, Kevin <kevin.liu@sap.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 20:51:10 +0100
Message-ID: <99CA63DD941EDC4EBA897048D9B0061D04E16706@uspalx20a.pal.sap-ag.de>
To: "'www-ws-desc@w3.org'" <www-ws-desc@w3.org>
Cc: "'Jonathan Marsh'" <jmarsh@microsoft.com>
Hi, 

Below is my shot for today's minutes. I have to admit that I am a horrible scribe, please feel free to correct me if I missed or misinterpreted any of your key points. 

To avoid unnecessary traffic to the list,  please send your comments directly to me by next Monday. I will incorporate any comments received, and send a revised version to the list next Tuesday.

Best Regards,
Kevin
---------------------------

WS-Description Minutes March 27, 2003

Attendances:
 Mike Ballantyne        Electronic Data Systems
 David Booth            W3C
 Roberto Chinnici       Sun Microsystems
 Glen Daniels           Macromedia
 Jacek Kopecky          Systinet
 Sandeep Kumar          Cisco Systems
 Philippe Le Hégaret    W3C
 Amelia Lewis           TIBCO
 Steve Lind             AT&T
 Kevin Canyang Liu      SAP
 Jonathan Marsh         Chair (Microsoft)
 Ingo Melzer            DaimlerChrysler
 Jeff Mischkinsky       Oracle
 Dale Moberg            Cyclone Commerce
 Arthur Ryman           IBM
 Jeffrey Schlimmer      Microsoft
 Igor Sedukhin          Computer Associates
 Jerry Thrasher         Lexmark
 William Vambenepe      Hewlett-Packard
 Sanjiva Weerawarana    IBM
 Umit Yalcinalp         Oracle
 Prasad Yendluri        webMethods, Inc.

Observers:
 Simon Genzer           IONA Technologies

Regrets:
 Erik Ackerman          Lexmark
 Allen Brookes          Rogue Wave Software
 Youenn Fablet          Canon
 Dietmar Gaertner       Software AG
 Steve Graham           Global Grid Forum
 Martin Gudgin          Microsoft
 Tom Jordahl            Macromedia
 Lily Liu               webMethods
 Jean-Jacques Moreau    Canon
 Don Mullen             Tibco

----------------------------------------------------------
1. Assign scribe : Kevin Liu

2. Minutes from March 20 telecon approved.

3.  Review of Action items [.1].
PENDING   2003-01-21: Roberto and gudge to create a branch and work up
                      a binding proposal based on referencing type
                      systems directly from operation components.
                      (Umit's example, Sanjiva's example, WSDL 1.1
                      example, and others.)
DONE [.2] 2003-01-30: Jacek to write up text on SOAP response MEP after
                      Gudge and Jeffrey send their proposal for
                      request/response MEP.
DONE [.4] 2003-02-13: Arthur to propose improvements to the URL 
                      replacement mechanism.
PENDING   2003-02-13: Philippe to re-do HTTP bindings to allow 
                      per-method operation names etc.  Arthur to
                      assist.
PENDING   2003-02-27: Sanjiva to send summary of 
                      one-portType-per-service issue.
PENDING   2003-03-04: Editors to discuss markup for testable assertions
                      in the spec and come back with a strategy.
PENDING   2003-03-04: Jonathan to recruit a QA contact for the WG.
PENDING   2003-03-04: Jonathan to recruit a test contact for the WG.
PENDING   2003-03-13: Editors will find part 2 issues to dispatch 
                      easily next telcon.
PENDING   2003-03-13: Philippe will make a proposal concerning issue 
                      28 using features and properties.
PENDING   2003-03-13: GlenD to propose a Property representation of 
                      SOAP action parameter of application/soap+xml
                      type
PENDING   2003-03-13: Don will write a proposal for annotating schema 
                      with part information.
PENDING   2003-03-20: Jonathan to slice and dice Amy's comments to 
                      submit to the QA group's web form
PENDING   2003-03-20: David Booth to investigate what it takes to get 
                      a validator available as an official W3C entity 
DONE [.3] 2003-03-20: Glen will comment to XMLP re: SOAPAction being 
                      made a property and the crufty fallback we could
                      resort to if they don't.

[.1] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/#actions <http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/#actions> 
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Mar/0034.html <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Mar/0034.html> 
[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Mar/0035.html <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Mar/0035.html> 
[.4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Mar/0059.html <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Mar/0059.html> 


4. Admininstrivia:
  a. Welcome new member: Ingo Melzer from DaimlerChysler.
  b. Daylight savings time coming up:  Europe Mar 30th, US Apr 6th.

  c. May FTF [.1].
	Jonathan: Is WG concerned about travel to France for the May F2F
	Philippe: The telecon bridge may be overloaded

	ACTION: dbooth to request registration page for May F2F
	ACTION: JM to raise F2F  travel issue on the discussion list and potentially develop backup plans

  d. Sept FTF 
	still looking for West Coast host
  e. Usage Scenarios [.2].  
	Jonathan is still pretending to track this.

  f. QA contact, test lead recruitment.

  g. XMLP response on use=encoded [.4]
	Jonathan: XMLP has no objection to dropping use attribute
  
  h. TAG issue abstractComponentRefs-37 [.5, .6]
	Jonathan: TAG agrees that we are abusing fragment syntax for URIs but will think about the right way to do it

[.1] http://www.w3.org/2003/ws/desc/3/05/f2fMayLogistics.htm <http://www.w3.org/2003/ws/desc/3/05/f2fMayLogistics.htm> 
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-desc/2003Jan/0054.html <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-desc/2003Jan/0054.html> 
[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2003Mar/0040.html <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2003Mar/0040.html> 
[.4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-desc/2003Mar/0019.html <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-desc/2003Mar/0019.html> 
[.5] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Mar/0060.html <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Mar/0060.html> 
[.6] http://www.w3.org/2003/03/24-tag-summary.html <http://www.w3.org/2003/03/24-tag-summary.html> 

5.  New Issues.  Merged issues list [.1].
[.1] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/ws/desc/issues/wsd-issues.html <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/ws/desc/issues/wsd-issues.html> 

  - Normativeness of our Schema [.2]
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Mar/0045.html <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Mar/0045.html> 

	Jonathan: Any reason why normative schema is not a good idea?
	Amy: in part definition, there is no way to spec something optional
	Amy: maybe we can define a schema that can describe inaccuracy, otherwise I will object using schema as the validator
	Philippe: who wins, the schema or the spec, when conflicts?
	Umit: schema is easier for validation
	Jonathan: if we add schema to the spec and add an editor notes?
	Davidb: it's a long way of saying schema is normative
	Reberto: schema and spec goes side by side
	Jonathan: let's take a straw poll. which  should be the highest priority: the schema or the prose?
	<jeffsch> +1 to reducing prose to eliminate overlap with normative schema
	<jeffm> i vote for the schema being the ultimate authoritative source (of all knowledge ;-)
	Arthur: schema should be the first pass of validation
	* jeffsch hears Roberto asking for 'literate programming'
	* jeffsch ... or 'literate schema-ing'
	* Roberto_Chinnici rejecting literate schema-ing really
	Poll result: schema 17, prose 2, abstain 2
	Many stated that support for schema on condition that the prose can improve to reduce overlap/conflicts with schema

	ACTION: Jonathan will follow-up with editors to figure out how to improve the prose of the spec to be aligned with schema

  - Small language clarification in portType extension [.3]
[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Mar/0036.html <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Mar/0036.html> 
	?? Noise in phone line, scribe missed the discussion
	Arthur: it's a non-issue

  - in-out/request-response MEPs and out-in 
	Jonathan: Sanjiva raised a questions [.4], 
	[.4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Mar/0049.html <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Mar/0049.html> 
	if there's an in-out vs. request-response split, then shouldn't the same occur for the outbound case: out-in vs. solicit-response? 

	??Loud music flowed out from the phone line. Group was hunting for the "party lover". Discussion was disrupted by loud music and scribe missed the conversations  

6.  Moving MIME Type Information to the Interface [.1]

[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Mar/0028.html <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Mar/0028.html> 

	Jonathan: anything new on this?
	Jeffsch: yes
	Arthur: is it a soap proposal or a wsdl proposal?
	Jonathan: it should be part of the schema
	Many argued that mime type is not part of the schema and we cann't wait for schema to be changed
	<dmoberg> I like Arthur's proposal.
	<Philippe> <part name='image' type='xsd:hexBinary'/>
	Jonathan:there are two places that a binary data can appear: in the part level, or inside a complex type
	Jonathan: looking for a proposal to investigate more on this

	ACTION: Philippe write up a proposal for embedding binary data types in schema

	Arthur: the two approaches are not really exclusive
	Arthur: my proposal addresses the simple cases, maybe 80 percent

	?? Scribe missed Umit's question and the follow-up discussions, can somebody fill in this part of the discussion?
	Jeffsch: many confuse the difference b/t infoset and serialization 

	Arthur: is a question whether we just want one type system (schema) or we want to allow other type systems
	Jonathan: we definitely want to allow other systems


7. Patterns.  
	Dbooth: Patterns task force list: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-desc-meps/2003Mar/ <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-desc-meps/2003Mar/> 
	Jacekk: my action item is missing from the agenda, but I have sent a message to the list to relate the SOAP response MEPs to WSDL MEPs
	Jacekk message can be found: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Mar/0034.html <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Mar/0034.html> 

	Dbooth: posted a message to clarify the correspondences between our in-out patterns and MEPs, 
		message was posted to mep task force list
		http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-desc-meps/2003Mar/0003.html <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-desc-meps/2003Mar/0003.html> 

8. BindingType proposal from Kevin .Updated proposal at [.2].
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Jan/0068.html <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Jan/0068.html> 
	Jonathan: do we still have hard dependencies?
	Kevin: Was waiting for the binding component to be more stable. believe it's about time to settle down on this.
	Jonathan: will move this to top on agenda for next week.  


MEETING ADJOURNED

Summary of new ACTION items:
	ACTION: dbooth to request registration page for May F2F
	ACTION: JM to raise F2F  travel issue on the discussion list and potentially develop backup plans
	ACTION: Jonathan will follow-up with editors to figure out how to improve the prose of the spec to be aligned with schema
	ACTION: philippe write up a proposal for embedding binary data types in schema


Best Regards, 
Kevin 
Received on Thursday, 27 March 2003 14:51:26 GMT

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