W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-webont-wg@w3.org > May 2003

Minutes - WebOnt Telecon May 15, 2003

From: Peter F. Patel-Schneider <pfps@research.bell-labs.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:08:10 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <20030515.140810.11628216.pfps@research.bell-labs.com>
To: www-webont-wg@w3.org

Time: Thu, 15 May at 12p U.S. Eastern. 60 to 90 min.
Bridge: +1.617.761.6200 then 9326#.
IRC: the usual place (copied below)

0. Current Action Items

Continuing

ACTION: Jim Hendler to report back on implementation feedback.
ACTION: Dan Connolly to create a test for this (imports)
ACTION: Jim Hendler and Dan Connolly to compose a response to the LC comment on
	local and compound keys.
ACTION: Peter Patel-Schneider to work on proof for issue 5.26 B1,B2
ACTION: Dan Connolly publish XML syntax

New

ACTION: Peter Patel-Schneider and Jeremy Carroll to discuss solutions to
	bugs in RDF Semantics in Budapest 
ACTION: Jeremy Carroll to make changes to test document concerning
	datatypes, as discussed
ACTION: Pat Hayes and Ian Horrocks will review changes
ACTION: Peter Patel-Schneider to design test that shows effects of recent
	proposed changes to RDF datatyping and sent to Jeremy Carroll
ACTION: Sandro Hawke to do publishing of Test
ACTION: Jim Hendler POLITELY respond to XMLLiteral response

1. Administrivia

Chair: Hendler
Scribe: pfps
Roll Call

Phone: MikeS, pfps, Sandro, NickG, Marwan_Sabbouh, JFBaget, DanC, IanH,
       Evan_Wallace, jimH, HermanT, JeffH, jjc, SeanB
IRC:   nmg, Ian, seanb, pfps, jjcscribe, sandro, Jhendler, Zakim, RRSAgent, DanC, logger
Regrets: see www-webont-wg@w3.org archives

Approve Minutes of May 8
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003May/0120.html

Approved

Next telecon: May 22 , but attendance may be a bit low - chair is Guus - scribe is JFBaget
Scribe for 29 May might be Sandro

Action review:
ACTION: Guus to ping Hori about pubrules testing of XML Syntax draft
	DONE
ACTION: Jim Hendler, Sandro Hawke, and Pat Hayes to review test document.
	DONE
ACTION: Jim Hendler to report back on implementation feedback.
	CONTINUED
ACTION: Peter Patel-Schneider to piddle with ontology name.
	DONE
ACTION: Dan Connolly to create a test for this (imports)
	CONTINUED
ACTION: Jim Hendler and Dan Connolly to compose a response to the LC comment on
	local and compound keys.
	CONTINUED
ACTION: Peter Patel-Scheider to compose a response to Jeremy's technical
	issue comment.
	DONE
ACTION: Peter Patel-Schneider and Jeremy Carroll to discuss solutions to
	bugs in RDF Semantics in Budapest 
	NEW
ACTION: Pat Hayes to discuss ramifications of removing type List triples
	with S and AS co-editor.
	DONE
ACTION:	Guus Schreiber to discuss type List triples issue with Jeremy in
	more detail
	DONE
ACTION: Guus Schreiber to let Brian McBride know that this issue is not
	yet resolved in WebOnt.
	DONE
ACTION: Patel-Schneider to work on proof for issue 5.26 B1,B2
	Peter no longer prepared to specify a completion date.
	CONTINUED
ACTION JimH: notify the SemWeb CG that Rector's comment has introduced
	a schedule risk
	WITHDRAWN
ACTION Hori: deliver pubrules-happy draft
	DONE
ACTION Connolly: publish XML syntax
	CONTINUED

2.0 Last Call of Test Document
Main agenda item will be moving Test to Last Call.  Please read
Jeremy's email from [1]  and the accompanying thread(s).

Discussion on datatypes in test document.

ACTION: Jeremy Carroll to make changes to test document concerning
	datatypes, as discussed
ACTION: Pat Hayes and Ian Horrocks will review changes
ACTION: Peter Patel-Schneider to design test that shows effects of recent
	proposed changes to RDF datatyping and sent to Jeremy Carroll

Discssion on what term to use to refer to complete reasoners.  Jeremy will do
something appropriate.

Discussion on OWL DL reasoner conformance,
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003May/0258.html

PROPOSED - to drop OWL DL reasoner conformance from Test
Opposed: None
Abstain: horrocks, pfps, evan, marwan, baget

Discussion on adding more tests, described in 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003May/0127.html,
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003May/0160.html,
and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003May/0191.html.

PROPOSED - add all these test
Carried by consensus

PROPOSED - to move Test to Last Call based on editor's draft currently at
	http://www.w3.org/2002/03owlt/editors-draft/draft/, with editorial
	changes as indicated above, and new approved tests 
Carried by consensus

ACTION: Sandro Hawke to do publishing of Test

3.0 Status of XMLLiteral issue

I do not think we answered Brian's question whether the RDFCore 
response to the XMLLiteral comment was satisfactory. See:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Apr/0031.html

Jeremy asked us to wait until RDFCore decided on pfps08, which is 
apparently a related comment by Peter.

See also item 5 of the April 10 minutes:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Apr/0060.html

ACTION: Jim Hendler POLITELY respond to XMLLiteral response


3.? LISTS

Discussion on the effect of removing rdf:List triples from parsetType
Collection.  No consensus.

ACTION: Jim Hendler send message to RDF Core indicating our concerns


4.0 Comments Discussion

We will also review some of the open comments that are not aimed at
specific documents, and see if any merit new issues or reopening old
ones.

4.Specific issues:

1 - Should we open/reopen placement inclusion of oneOf and hasValue in OWL DL?
    (See thread on response to Martin Merry)
    Currently FaCT, Cerebra and Racer do NOT implement totality of our 
    current OWL DL design - does it need rethinking?

Discussion indicated that there was no censensus on what, if anything,
should or could be removed.  Hopefully the removed of OWL DL reasoning
conformance will help defuse this issue.

Chair declines to reopen any related issue.


2 - Should we reopen issue of whether we need owl:class
    Comments have asked if this is still needed, response required

Discussion on relationship between rdfs:Class and owl:Class including the
role of owl:Class.

Chair reopens Issue 5.20 
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/webont-issues.html#I5.20-should-OWL-provide-synonyms-for-RDF-and-RDFS-objects
as it pertains to owl:Class and rdfs:Class.


5.0 AOB

None

Adjourn




IRC Log Copy

===	Highest connection count: 62 (61 clients)
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=-=	Topic for #webont was set by DanC on Thu May 15 2003 11:55:04 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Zakim	SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has now started
sandro	logger, pointer?
logger	See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/webont/2003-05-15#T15-58-49
Zakim	+[EDS]
sandro	RRSAgent, pointer?
RRSAgent	See http://www.w3.org/2003/05/15-webont-irc#T15-58-54
Jhendler	Dan - yes, was in hurry - it referes to the one immediately above
DanC	are folks early? or is my clock off?
Zakim	+??P3
Zakim	+Sandro
Zakim	+NickG
pfps	zakim, ??p3 is pfps
Zakim	+pfps; got it
DanC	eek; my clock was 107 seconds off.
sandro	its 11:59 ET dan
Zakim	+Marwan_Sabbouh
Zakim	+??P9
Zakim	+??P10
Zakim	+DanC
jjcscribe	Zakim, ??P10 is jjc.
Zakim	+jjc.; got it
jjcscribe	Zakim, who's on the phone?
Zakim	On the phone I see [EDS], pfps, Sandro, NickG, Marwan_Sabbouh, ??P9, jjc. (muted), DanC
sandro	??P9 is Jean-Paul ...? (I dont know the name)
jjcscribe	Zakim, unmute jjc.
Zakim	jjc. should no longer be muted
DanC	Jean-Fran\x{00E7}ois Baget, INRIA
Zakim	+??P12
Zakim	+Evan_Wallace
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sandro	Zakim, ??p9 is JFBaget
Zakim	+JFBaget; got it
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Jhendler	zakim, [umd] is jimH
Zakim	sorry, Jhendler, I do not recognize a party named '[umd]'
Zakim	+[UMD]
Jhendler	zakim, [umd] is jimH
Zakim	+jimH; got it
jjcscribe	Zakim, ??P12 is IanH
Zakim	+IanH; got it
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DanC	Zakim, who's talking
Zakim	I don't understand 'who's talking', DanC
jjcscribe	Zakim, who's on the phone?
Zakim	On the phone I see [EDS], pfps, Sandro, NickG, Marwan_Sabbouh, JFBaget, jjc., DanC, IanH, Evan_Wallace, jimH
DanC	Zakim, who's talking?
Jhendler	zakim, [eds] is MikeS
Zakim	+MikeS; got it
Zakim	DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [EDS] (1%), Sandro (0%), jjc. (69%), IanH (15%), Evan_Wallace (5%)
Zakim	-jjc.
Zakim	+HermanT
Zakim	+Tim_Finin
Zakim	+??P10
jjcscribe	Zakim, ??P10 i sjjc
Zakim	I don't understand '??P10 i sjjc', jjcscribe
jjcscribe	Zakim, ??P10 is jjc
Zakim	+jjc; got it
Jhendler	zakim, Tim_finin is STILL JeffH
Zakim	I don't understand 'Tim_finin is STILL JeffH', Jhendler
Jhendler	zakim, Tim_finin is JeffH
Zakim	+JeffH; got it
jjcscribe	Zakim, who's talking?
Zakim	jjcscribe, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pfps (29%), Sandro (42%), JFBaget (7%), jjc (39%), jimH (44%), DanC (15%)
Zakim	+??P17
Jhendler	zakim, who is here?
Zakim	On the phone I see MikeS, pfps, Sandro, NickG, Marwan_Sabbouh, JFBaget, DanC, IanH, Evan_Wallace, jimH, HermanT, JeffH, jjc, ??P17
Zakim	On IRC I see nmg, Ian, seanb, pfps, jjcscribe, sandro, Jhendler, Zakim, RRSAgent, DanC, logger
DanC	Zakim, ??P17 is SeanB
Zakim	+SeanB; got it
Jhendler	zakim, ??p17 is SeanB
Zakim	sorry, Jhendler, I do not recognize a party named '??p17'
DanC	agenda?
Zakim	sees 1 item remaining on the agenda:
Zakim	1. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003May/0248.html [from DanC]
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=-=	jjcscribe is now known as jjc
pfps	zakim, pfps is pfpsscribe
Zakim	+pfpsscribe; got it
Jhendler	scribe is Peter P-S
DanC	peter, you don't usually take your notes in IRC, right?
Jhendler	zakim, who is here?
Zakim	On the phone I see MikeS, pfpsscribe, Sandro (muted), NickG, Marwan_Sabbouh, JFBaget, DanC, IanH, Evan_Wallace, jimH, HermanT, JeffH, jjc, SeanB
Zakim	On IRC I see GuusS, nmg, Ian, seanb, pfps, jjc, sandro, Jhendler, Zakim, RRSAgent, DanC, logger
Zakim	+??P20
Zakim	+??P21
Jhendler	zakim, ??p20 is CharlesW
Zakim	+CharlesW; got it
Jhendler	zakim, ??p21 is Guus
Zakim	+Guus; got it
sandro	zakim, unmute me
Zakim	Sandro should no longer be muted
DanC	suggests Jim read the list of those present for the benefit of those who can't see IRC
Zakim	+??P22
pfps	1. Administrivia
Jhendler	zakim, ??p22 is ziv
Zakim	+ziv; got it
pfps	Roll Call on IRC
pfps	Approve Minutes of May 8 - approved
pfps	Next Telecon - May 22 - but this is during WWW2003 - May 29 is a holiday
DanC	regrets for 22May from Connolly
Jhendler	zakim, pick a scribe
Zakim	Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose pfpsscribe
Jhendler	zakim, pick a scribe
Zakim	Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Sandro
Jhendler	zakim, pick a scribe
Zakim	Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Sandro
Jhendler	zakim, pick a scribe
Zakim	Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Marwan_Sabbouh
Jhendler	zakim, pick a scribe
Zakim	Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose pfpsscribe
Jhendler	zakim, pick a scribe
Zakim	Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose pfpsscribe
Jhendler	zakim, pick a scribe
Zakim	Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose MikeS
Jhendler	zakim, pick a scribe
Zakim	Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose JFBaget
pfps	Next Telecon will be 22 May, but attendance may be a bit low - chair is Guus - scribe is JFBaget
pfps	Scribe for 29 May might be Sandro
pfps	Action Review
Zakim	+PatH
pfps	- Guus ping - done
pfps	- Review of test document - several done, no more needed
pfps	- Implementation feedback - reporting - continued
pfps	- Ontology name - done
pfps	- Imports test - continued
pfps	- Local and Compound keys - continued
DanC	I spent a *lot* of time trying to attack the local/compound keys comment but kept getting interested in other threads
pfps	- Response for Jeremy's technical issue comment - DONE
pfps	- - needs telecon time
pfps	- - proposed for 29 May
DanC	(who's happy to join?)
pfps	ACTION - Peter and Jeremy to discuss solution in Budapest (various coercions on who will buy beers)
pfps	- Charles White to participate
pfps	- List items moved into agenda
pfps	- B1 and B2 - continued
pfps	- CG action - withdrawn
pfps	- Hori draft - DONE
pfps	- publish - continued
pfps	2.0 Test Last Call
pfps	jjc - a few issues have surfaced
DanC	Agenda request: Test LC vote http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003May/0194.html
jjc	http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003May/0259.html
pfps	jjc - datatype issues - what should a complete OWL reasoner do with unknown datatypes
pfps	ianh - the semantics is clear
pfps	danc - agreement -
|<--	GuusS has left irc.w3.org (Ping timeout)
pfps	jjc - datatype theory is input to checks
pfps	danc - tests need to specify which datatypes are to be used, systems SHOULD give warning when they encounter unknown datatypes
pfps	path - warning against incorrectly labelling unknown datatypes as inconsistency
pfps	path - test that shows different behaviour with different datatype theories
pfps	jjc - changes required for this will need review
pfps	ACTION - jjc make change to test document
sandro	zakim, who is talking?
Zakim	sandro, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (55%), jjc (54%), jimH (22%), IanH (68%), DanC (9%), PatH (5%)
sandro	zakim, mute me
Zakim	Sandro should now be muted
pfps	ACTION - path and ianh (lubricated) will review
pfps	- ... datatype changes
sandro	zakim, who is talking?
Zakim	sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jjc (53%), jimH (10%), DanC (17%), PatH (28%)
pfps	pfps - what about changes to dataypes in RDF Semantics?
pfps	ACITON: pfps to design test that shows difference and sent to jeremy
DanC	difference regards datatypes and monotonicity, I gather.
pfps	pfps - yes
pfps	jjc - what is “complete”
pfps	path - complete often refers to one-sided tests
pfps	path - there it has a particular meaning
pfps	ianh - disagreement with the standard use of “complete”
pfps	ianh - for modal and DL reasoners complete means complete and terminating
pfps	danc - proponents - path - decisive - ianh - complete and terminating
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pfps	jjc - try “complete and terminating”
jjc	http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003May/0258.html
pfps	jjc - suggestion from DanC - drop OWL DL complete reasoner as target
pfps	ianh - would like to keep - it is well defined - one might want to build it
pfps	danc - conformance targets should be supported by plans to build against them
pfps	ianh - there is no way of determining conformance with any target, so OWL DL consistency is no different from other possibilities
pfps	jimh - who wants to drop the target
pfps	in favor - hendler, charles
pfps	in favour of keeping - ian, peter
jjc	(alo carroll and connolly for dropping)
pfps	danc - need software for target to get to PR
pfps	also Guss and Pat to drop
pfps	more and more get on the bandwagon
pfps	Jim - propose to drop clause from document
pfps	in favour - <several>
pfps	Jim - resolved to drop the clause
pfps	opposed - none
pfps	abstain - horrocks, pfps, evan, marwan, baget
pfps	jjc - approve more tests - ian has a buch of tests that passed, jos has one - all have passed jjc's syntax checker
jjc	http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003May/0127.html
Zakim	-Marwan_Sabbouh
jjc	http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003May/0160.html
jjc	http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003May/0191.html
pfps	jjc - total number of new test cases - ~25; ~30; 1 - pointed to by above
pfps	resolution - approve - carried by consensus
jjc	http://www.w3.org/2002/03owlt/editors-draft/draft/
pfps	jim - proposal move test to last call based on current editor's draft, with editorial changes as indicated above, and new approved tests
Zakim	+Mike_Dean
DanC	of 28 May 2003
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DanC	Last-Modified: Thu, 15 May 2003 12:26:35 GMT
pfps	opposed - none; abstain - none
Ian	There were 72 tests verified by me.
DanC	ack sandro
Zakim	unmutes Sandro
Zakim	sees no one on the speaker queue
pfps	ACTION: sandro to do publishing
RRSAgent	records action 1
pfps	jimh - chairs will determine length of last call period
DanC	q+
Zakim	sees DanC on the speaker queue
pfps	3.0 Status of XMLLiteral and rdf:List
pfps	jimh - currently nothing need be done, but let's reply nicely
pfps	ACTION: jimh POLITELY respond to XMLLiteral response
RRSAgent	records action 2
pfps	Action review
|<--	GuusS has left irc.w3.org (Ping timeout)
pfps	- path discuss ramifications - DONE
pfps	path - current situation - request to RDF Core to remove outstanding
pfps	jjc - wants to keep, but in minority
jjc	(minority in RDFCore)
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pfps	jimh - who can't live with
pfps	pfps - not happy
jjc	q+
Zakim	sees DanC, jjc on the speaker queue
Jhendler	ack DanC
Zakim	sees jjc on the speaker queue
pfps	pfps - removing typing from list resource is not a good point
pfps	jjc - what is a good point? - a reasonable metric is the length of the description
pfps	jjc - will exempting list resources get there - no
pfps	jimh - send message indicating our concerns
pfps	ACTION - jimh - send such a message
pfps	4.0 Specific issues
pfps	jimh - should we reopen whether oneOf and hasValue is in OWL DL
pfps	jjc - yes
pfps	ianh - why pick on oneOf and hasValue
pfps	danc - removing conformance helps here
pfps	jmih - issue will not be opened right now
pfps	jimh - will modify response
pfps	jimh - should we reopen owl:Class
pfps	jimh - is owl:Class necessary
pfps	path - what about rdfs:Class rdf:type owl:Class ?
pfps	jimh - need some justification - test case, pointer, rationale
jjc	q+
Zakim	sees jjc on the speaker queue
pfps	mike dean - do we really need both
pfps	jjc - in OWL Full owl:Class and rdfs:Class have the same extension
pfps	path - distinction is important
DanC	http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/webont-issues.html#I5.20-should-OWL-provide-synonyms-for-RDF-and-RDFS-objects
pfps	jimh - reopen issue on owl:Class - issue 5.20 - synonym part
Zakim	-SeanB
DanC	rather owl:Class part
seanb	Sorry, have to leave. Bye.
DanC	never mind.
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pfps	jimh - guus and jimh will classify comments
Zakim	-MikeS
pfps	adjourned
Zakim	-Evan_Wallace
Zakim	-PatH
Zakim	-pfpsscribe
Zakim	-NickG
Zakim	-DanC
Zakim	-jjc
Zakim	-CharlesW
Zakim	-JFBaget
Zakim	-Mike_Dean
Zakim	-HermanT
Zakim	-ziv
Zakim	-Sandro
Zakim	-IanH
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Zakim	-JeffH
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logger	is logging
Zakim	-jimH
Zakim	-Guus
Zakim	SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended
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Received on Thursday, 15 May 2003 14:08:22 GMT

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