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ADMIN: Log of May 16 WEBONT Telecon

From: Jim Hendler <hendler@cs.umd.edu>
Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 19:11:48 -0400
Message-Id: <p05111717b90de192dc4f@[10.0.1.4]>
To: webont <www-webont-wg@w3.org>
ACTIONS

ACTION - 5/23 Dan Connolly will set up f2f registration page

ACTION - chairs - work out how/when we will have telecon call in for f2f\

ACTION -  5/23 hayes, wallace to review UML document-- welty done

ACTION - 5/23 Nick Gibbins to draft a proposed response from WOWG to 
the RDFS schema document

ACTION - 5/23 Deb McGuinness editing"level "1 document for external 
release (as WD)

RESOLVED:  To release as soon as possible
  two documents to the public:
  1. one document describing a named subset of language features, along
  the lines of Deborah's proposal.
   (NOTE: the decision on what kind of term to use to refer to this
named subset (e.g. "level", "module") is postponed. ).
  2. a second document describing the full set of language features
(Scribe notes that it was note determined as to whether this second 
document should be the DAML+OIL document or whether that should be a 
separate document)

--------
Full log

Log file opened at: 5/16/02 11:56:13 AM
11:56 AM: #webont: jhendler RRSAgent Zakim DanC laurentO schreiber @logger_1
11:56 AM: *** End of /NAMES list.
11:56 AM: *** Channel Mode is +
11:56 AM:       DanC: any scribe volunteers for today?
11:56 AM:      Zakim: SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has now started
11:57 AM:      Zakim: +DanC
11:57 AM:      Zakim: +??P9
11:58 AM:  schreiber: ??P9 is GuusS
11:58 AM:        nmg: hi
11:58 AM:  schreiber: Zakim, ??P9 is GuusS
11:58 AM:      Zakim: +GuusS; got it
11:59 AM:      Zakim: +Evan.Wallace
11:59 AM:      Zakim: +SDecker
11:59 AM:      Zakim: +??P25
11:59 AM:       DanC: Zakim, ??P25 is PeterPS
11:59 AM:      Zakim: +PeterPS; got it
11:59 AM:      Zakim: +John.Stanton
11:59 AM:      Zakim: +??P28
12:00 PM:      Zakim: +JHendler
12:00 PM:       DanC: Zakim, ??P28 is RudigerK
12:00 PM:      Zakim: +RudigerK; got it
12:00 PM:      Zakim: -JHendler
12:00 PM:      Zakim: +NickG
12:00 PM:   jhendler: phone problems - back in a minute
12:00 PM:      Zakim: +M.Smith
12:01 PM:      Zakim: +Ian.Horrocks
12:01 PM:             DanC reads Welty on OWL/UML 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002May/0104.html
12:01 PM:        nmg: swears the wg members are getting younger...
12:02 PM:      Zakim: +??P1
12:02 PM:       DanC: Zakim, +??P1 is JosD
12:02 PM:      Zakim: sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named '+??P1'
12:02 PM:      Zakim: +??P8
12:02 PM:       DanC: Zakim, ??P1 is JosD
12:02 PM:      Zakim: +JosD; got it
12:02 PM:       DanC: Zakim, ??P8 is DebM
12:02 PM:      Zakim: +DebM; got it
12:02 PM:       DanC: Zakim, who's here?
12:02 PM:      Zakim: I see DanC, GuusS, Evan.Wallace, SDecker, 
PeterPS, John.Stanton, RudigerK, NickG, M.Smith, Ian.Horrocks, JosD, 
DebM
12:03 PM:      Zakim: +MDean
12:03 PM:      Zakim: +??P15
12:03 PM:      Zakim: +JHendler
12:03 PM:       DanC: Zakim, ??P15 is FrankvH
12:03 PM:      Zakim: +FrankvH; got it
12:04 PM:   jhendler: zakim, who is here?
12:04 PM:      Zakim: I see DanC, GuusS, Evan.Wallace, SDecker, 
PeterPS, John.Stanton, RudigerK, NickG, M.Smith, Ian.Horrocks, JosD, 
DebM, MDean, JHendler, FrankvH
12:04 PM:   laurentO: Zakim, I'm here Laurent Olivry
12:04 PM:      Zakim: I don't understand 'I'm here Laurent Olivry', 
laurentO.  Try /msg Zakim help
12:04 PM:      Zakim: +??P10
12:05 PM:       DanC: Zakim, ??P10 is HermanT
12:05 PM:      Zakim: +HermanT; got it
12:05 PM:      Zakim: +Marwan.Sabbouh
12:05 PM:   jhendler: regrets - from miller, dale, eshelman, heflin, 
finin, hellman
12:05 PM:   jhendler: regrets - obrst
12:06 PM:      Zakim: +??P22
12:06 PM:   jhendler: f2f - deb suggests people register as soon as 
possible - there is a link from the webont page
12:06 PM:       DanC: Zakim, ??P22 is ChrisW
12:06 PM:      Zakim: +ChrisW; got it
12:06 PM:   jhendler: because of holiday weekend -- BOOK SOON!
12:07 PM:       DanC: Jul ftf page http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/ftf3.html
12:07 PM:   jhendler: Deb - registration - Dan is putting this up
12:07 PM:   jhendler: ACTION - Dan Connolly will set up f2f registration page
12:09 PM:   jhendler: discussion of telecon call in
12:09 PM:   jhendler: ACTION - chairs - work out how/when we will 
have telecon call in for f2f
12:10 PM:   jhendler: attempt to mute an echo
12:10 PM:   jhendler: --------------- Action review
12:10 PM:             DanC dials *0, reaches operator
12:10 PM:      Zakim: +Massimo
12:10 PM:       DanC: re CVS action, no progress; sorry
12:10 PM:      Zakim: +DanC
12:12 PM:   jhendler: DanC working on CVS - hopes to get something this week
12:13 PM:   jhendler: action on welty, hayes, wallace to review UML 
-- welty done
12:13 PM:   jhendler: evan will send out today
12:13 PM:   jhendler: hayes still pending
12:13 PM:   jhendler: action on McGuinness - document on level 1 - 
done and on agenda
12:14 PM:       DanC: JosD, I'm looking at mail from Simon to you of 
06 May 2002 21:19:50 -0400
12:14 PM:   jhendler: action on chair to get rdfs review - done - 
nick gibbins accepted this
12:15 PM:   jhendler: ACTION - Nick Gibbins to draft a RDFS response 
on current released RDFS WD
12:15 PM:   jhendler: [off] proposed - all members of wowg to stop breathing...
12:16 PM:   jhendler: Peter and Dan discuss the review process of RDF 
Core WG drafts  -- what about "holes" left open
12:17 PM:   jhendler: Nick - I'm reviewing schema document - it 
doesn't currently have holes.
12:17 PM:   jhendler: pfps - primer has holes
12:17 PM:       DanC: it's perfectly in order for somebody outside 
the RDF Core WG to suggest text to fill in the holes in the primer.
12:18 PM:       JosD: Dan, I just searched my mail and found nothing, 
and it wouldn't be the first time that our mail system (Lotus Notes) 
failed
12:18 PM:       DanC: sigh.
12:18 PM:      Zakim: + +1.949.380.aaaa
12:19 PM:       DanC: ------ WWW2002 debrief, JimH
12:19 PM:   jhendler: ACTION (reworded)  - Nick Gibbins to draft a 
proposed response from WOWG to the RDFS schema document
12:19 PM:       DanC: Zakim, aaaa is LynnT
12:19 PM:      Zakim: +LynnT; got it
12:19 PM:       DanC: # WOWG: Ontology awareness increasing Jim 
Hendler (Wed, May 15 2002) 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002May/0111.html
12:20 PM:       DanC: JimH: lots of folks at WWW2002 report using DAML+OIL.
12:21 PM:       DanC: # WOWG: Presentation at WWW 2002 on Web Ont WG 
Jim Hendler (Sat, May 11 2002) 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002May/0090.html
12:21 PM:       DanC: JimH: folks want this WG to say something soon 
about how DAML+OIL relates to our work product: same coverage? etc.
12:22 PM:       DanC: JimH: lots of Semantic Web interest at WWW2002.
12:22 PM:       DanC: JosD, is this a good email address to use for 
you?  jos.deroo.jd@belgium.afga.de
12:22 PM:       DanC: JimH: at the Semantic Web session in the W3C 
track, it was standing-room-only. (~200 people)
12:23 PM:       DanC: JimH: on devday, SemWeb filled a whole room for 
a whole day. lots of tools/toolkits demoed. check out TAP.
12:23 PM:       DanC: dev day notes: 
http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2002/05/12/2002-05-12.html
12:23 PM:        nmg: note to scribe: Dave De Roure (Southampton) is 
also present on this call
12:23 PM:       JosD: No DanC, it is ending with .com
  jos.deroo.jd@belgium.afga.com
12:24 PM:       DanC: odd!
12:24 PM:       DanC: [scribe missed some bits]
12:24 PM:   jhendler: scribe - all you missed was general "Sem Web was popular"
12:25 PM:             DanC hands scribe duties back to JimH
12:25 PM:   jhendler: also - that Mike Dean and Steffan Staab demoed 
tools specifically on ontologies
12:26 PM:   jhendler: ---------------
12:26 PM:   jhendler: 4 - level one document - Deb McGuinness
12:26 PM:   jhendler: deb - email coming in - not much of contention 
with respect to what is included - some features felt to be omitted 
by some
12:27 PM:   jhendler: some issues about wording (property, relation) 
and some about individuals, literals, etc.
12:27 PM:   jhendler: some issues might be added -- local range 
restrictions and cardinality
12:28 PM:   jhendler: Cardinality - currently only "functional roles" 
(max 1, min 0) -- cannot say min card 1.
12:28 PM:       DanC: functional only? not unabiguous?
12:28 PM:   jhendler: some level of request for full cardinality
12:29 PM:       DanC: what issue are we discussing now?
12:29 PM:   jhendler: jimH - at WWW there was a lot of feedback that 
full cardinality was a need
12:29 PM:   jhendler: DanC - we're discussing about Deb's document 
and cardinalities
12:29 PM:       DanC: all our technical discussion is supposed to be 
issues lodged against DAML+OIL, no?
12:30 PM:   jhendler: Deb - Ian has some reasons we might not want 
full cardinality
12:30 PM:   jhendler: Peter - global cardinality not compatible with 
domains - Ian - w/o local restrictions cardinality is weird
12:30 PM:       DanC: perhaps "5.2 Language Compliance Levels" 
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/webont-issues.html#5.2-Language-Compliance-Levels
12:30 PM:   jhendler: req. to explain
12:30 PM:   jhendler: DanC - yes - this is an action from that that ISSUE
12:32 PM:   jhendler: so local restrictions and cardinality
12:33 PM:   jhendler: interact -- scope of the names of properties is 
global, but now we would make the cardinality global.
12:33 PM:   jhendler: so if we have "hasfather" and it comes from 
your namespace, then it also gets your cardinality.
12:34 PM:   jhendler: frank - but namespace localization does help 
this to some extent -- frank:playerNo is different than "every player 
number"
12:35 PM:   jhendler: Ian - says something that scribe doesn't 
understand at all
12:35 PM:   jhendler: Frank agrees w/him
12:35 PM:   jhendler: Deb - maybe global cardinalities are bad, local 
a preference
12:36 PM:   jhendler: Dan - well, maybe some things (particularly 
unambiguous and unique) make sense globally
12:36 PM:   jhendler: Deb - yes - maybe 1/0 is okay global
12:41 PM:   jhendler: JimH - reports that at W3C was a request for 
modularization
12:41 PM:       DanC: at W3C? at WWW2002, yes?
12:41 PM:   jhendler: jimH - oops, I meant WWW2002
12:42 PM:   jhendler: Ian - from users they will do what they do - 
from implementors - they may want a level.
12:42 PM:   jhendler: Deb - way we moved forward in Toulousse is to 
thing about difficulty for tool developers
12:42 PM:       DanC: I can believe people wanted something; that 
doesn't convince me we should give it to them.
12:43 PM:   jhendler: Deb - tool developer seems to be a level of 
abstraction that is worth talking about
12:43 PM:   jhendler: DanC - what are tool developers having trouble with?
12:43 PM:   jhendler: Frank - total complexity is too hard.
12:44 PM: *** Signoff: Massimo (Ping timeout)
12:45 PM:   jhendler: JimH - seems like some people want to use our 
language with tools separate from a reasoner.
12:46 PM:   jhendler: Guus - we actually had a decision about levels 
that didn't get reported in the minutes
12:46 PM:   jhendler: Frank - thinks it at least that strong
12:46 PM:       DanC: do not let the record of this telcon disagree 
with the ftf record. is the ftf record wrong?
12:46 PM:   jhendler: Guus - is there anyone who has tremendously 
strong feelings such a thing would be wrong?
12:47 PM:   jhendler: Guus - suggests that the record had it wrong
12:48 PM:   jhendler: DanC - argues that this would be costly - 
because there is should be consensus on something
12:48 PM:   jhendler: Deb - not clear that is what we were chartered 
to do -- full logic is hard to use, why shouldn't people have 
something easier to use
12:48 PM:   jhendler: DanC - can we advance state of art with one thing
12:50 PM:   jhendler: Frank/Ian/Guus - layering does seem like we decided it
12:52 PM:   jhendler: JimH - believes WG did decide this, also thinks 
from WWW experience that there is demand for it
12:52 PM:       DanC: I still don't see any particular rationale for 
splitting DAML+OIL
12:52 PM:   jhendler: Guus - can people "not live with" this ?
12:52 PM:   jhendler: DanC - me.  Ian/Peter - don't like, but could live with
12:53 PM:   jhendler: Ian - could live with it for consensus, but 
obviously I don't really like.  Jos also in that group
12:53 PM:   jhendler: DanC - guess I could live w/it.
12:53 PM:       DanC: I could abstain, that is
12:54 PM:   jhendler: Mike - is there a corrolary to this that all 
our other documents/etc need also to be layered? (i.e. semantics)
12:54 PM:   jhendler: Frank - it was my impression that this would be 
"monotonic" in semantics and syntax.
12:55 PM:       DanC: it's not at all clear to me that there's 
something substantially smaller than DAML+OIL that the WG can agree 
advances the state of the art.
12:55 PM:   jhendler: Deb - we worked hard to make sure this was the 
case in the current language design.
12:56 PM:   jhendler: Guus - propose we resolve this by reiterating 
the consensus from the f2f and recording it now -- as stated in 
todays agenda item 5
12:56 PM:       DanC: "These documents will not contain the actual syntax" ???
12:56 PM:   jhendler: 1. one document describing a named subset of 
language features, along
12:56 PM:   jhendler:    the lines of Deborah's proposal.
12:56 PM:   jhendler:    NOTE: the decision on what kind of term to 
use to refer to this
12:56 PM:   jhendler:    named subset (e.g. "level", "module") is postponed. .
12:56 PM:   jhendler: 2. a second document describing the full set of 
language features
12:56 PM:   jhendler: These documents will not contain the actual 
syntax, but should enable
12:56 PM:   jhendler: people from the public to understand what they 
van expect.
12:57 PM:   jhendler: DanC abstains, Jos, PeterPS, Ian
12:57 PM:   jhendler: No one objects
12:58 PM:   jhendler: RESOLVED - as stated in agenda item 5 - the 
group resolves to produce 2 documents - one to describe the easier 
core, the other to extend that to the full document
12:58 PM:       DanC: whoa! the question Guus asked did *not* say 
"These documents will not contain the actual syntax", did it?
12:59 PM:       pfps: I also do not think that the RESOLVED matches 
the question.
12:59 PM:             jhendler Dan - as written - but I think we are 
talking about WDs for now, not eventual goals. 
12:59 PM:   jhendler: scribe apologizes to pfps, will try again
1:00 PM:   jhendler: RESOLVED The proposal of the chairs is to decide 
to release as soon as possible
1:00 PM:   jhendler: two documents to the public:
1:00 PM:   jhendler: 1. one document describing a named subset of 
language features, along
1:00 PM:   jhendler:    the lines of Deborah's proposal.
1:00 PM:   jhendler:    NOTE: the decision on what kind of term to 
use to refer to this
1:00 PM:   jhendler:    named subset (e.g. "level", "module") is postponed. .
1:00 PM:   jhendler: 2. a second document describing the full set of 
language features
1:00 PM:   jhendler: These documents will not contain the actual 
syntax, but should enable
1:00 PM:   jhendler: people from the public to understand what they van expect.
1:00 PM:   jhendler: Consensus w/4 abstains (DanC, Pfps, Jos, Ian)
1:00 PM:   jhendler:  s/van/can
1:01 PM:       DanC: hmm... what was the disposition of item 4? any 
actions/next steps?
1:01 PM:       pfps: I view this as even further from the RESOLVED. 
I don't remember anything about the characteristics of the documents.
1:02 PM:   jhendler: pfps - I heard Guus say that he was moving what 
was written in the agenda - if you think this was something else - 
bring it up on phone.
1:03 PM:   jhendler: Pfps - suggests this is not what we resolved.
1:04 PM:   jhendler: pfps - suggest we go back to earlier document on 
features and turn that into the main document (w/something like Deb's 
document as level)
1:04 PM:   jhendler: Deb - features shoudl be subset of what is in 
larger document.
1:06 PM:   jhendler: scribe asks for clarification - not sure point 
of disagreement...
1:11 PM:   jhendler: (scribe points out that he was involved in 
discussion and missed much)
1:11 PM:   jhendler: debate is over what to release soon. 
1:14 PM:   jhendler: frank - okay, how about if we start from 
DAML+OIL as the second document - and note specifically the changes.
1:19 PM:      Zakim: -JHendler
1:19 PM:   jhendler: my phone just cut out -- will reconnect fast as 
I can - DanC can you scribe for 2 min till I reconnect or dial in 
some other way (phone is dead at the moment)
1:20 PM:       DanC: [missed some...]
1:20 PM:       DanC: PeterPS: if we just put out DAML+OIL with 
caveats, that will gloss over the semantic layering discussions, a 
disservice.
1:21 PM:      Zakim: +JHendler
1:23 PM:      Zakim: -ChrisW
1:26 PM:      Zakim: -Marwan.Sabbouh
1:30 PM:  jhendler: Guus - amend that our resolution remove the words 
"without syntax" and that we come to a specific proposal next telecon
1:31 PM:       DanC: er... "clearly an action on everybody" is a 
contradiction in terms, to me ;-)
1:31 PM:   jhendler: resolved - do as Guus said.
1:32 PM:   jhendler: (extending the above --
1:32 PM:       JosD: howso DanC?
1:32 PM:   jhendler: RESOLVED: 5) Language feature documents
1:32 PM:   jhendler:    (chair, 20 min.)
1:32 PM:   jhendler: The proposal of the chairs is to decide to 
release as soon as possible
1:32 PM:   jhendler: two documents to the public:
1:32 PM:   jhendler: 1. one document describing a named subset of 
language features, along
1:32 PM:   jhendler:    the lines of Deborah's proposal.
1:32 PM:   jhendler:    NOTE: the decision on what kind of term to 
use to refer to this
1:32 PM:   jhendler:    named subset (e.g. "level", "module") is postponed. .
1:32 PM:   jhendler: 2. a second document describing the full set of 
language features
1:33 PM:   jhendler: scribe for next week - Peter (and his echo)
1:33 PM:   jhendler: ==============
1:33 PM:      Zakim: -M.Smith
1:33 PM:      Zakim: -Evan.Wallace
1:33 PM:  DeborahMc: please send requests for updates to the compliance doc
1:33 PM:   jhendler: Adjourned.
1:33 PM:      Zakim: -PeterPS
1:33 PM:      Zakim: -LynnT
1:33 PM:      Zakim: -RudigerK
1:33 PM:      Zakim: -SDecker
1:33 PM:      Zakim: -John.Stanton
1:33 PM:      Zakim: -HermanT
1:33 PM:      Zakim: -MDean
1:33 PM:      Zakim: -NickG
1:33 PM:      Zakim: -Ian.Horrocks
1:33 PM:      Zakim: -GuusS
1:33 PM:      Zakim: -Massimo
1:34 PM:      Zakim: -JHendler
1:34 PM:      Zakim: -DebM
1:34 PM:      Zakim: -DanC
1:34 PM:      Zakim: -JosD
1:34 PM: *** Signoff: DeborahMc ()
1:35 PM: *** Signoff: JosD ()
1:35 PM: *** nmg has left channel #webont (Client Exiting)
1:35 PM: *** Signoff: pfps ()
1:38 PM: *** schreiber has left channel #webont (schreiber)
2:06 PM:      Zakim: -FrankvH
2:06 PM:      Zakim: SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended

-- 
Professor James Hendler				  hendler@cs.umd.edu
Director, Semantic Web and Agent Technologies	  301-405-2696
Maryland Information and Network Dynamics Lab.	  301-405-6707 (Fax)
AV Williams Building, Univ of Maryland		  College Park, MD 20742
http://www.cs.umd.edu/users/hendler
Received on Sunday, 19 May 2002 19:12:04 GMT

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