- From: Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com>
- Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:01:48 -0400
- To: www-tag@w3.org
- Message-ID: <m2k5je3gpv.fsf@nwalsh.com>
See http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/04/03-minutes
W3C[1]
- DRAFT -
W3C Technical Architecture Group
03 Apr 2008
Agenda[2]
See also: IRC log[3]
Attendees
Present
Tim, Stuart, Norm, Raman, Ashok, Jonathan, Noah, Dan, Dave
Regrets
Chair
Stuart
Scribe
Norm
Contents
* Topics
1. Approve this agenda?
2. Accept minutes of 27 Mar 2008?
3. Meeting next week?
4. Bristol f2f logistics
5. Issue RDFinXHTML-35
6. tagSoupIntegration-54
* Summary of Action Items
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Approve this agenda?
-> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/04/03-agenda
Approved.
Accept minutes of 27 Mar 2008?
-> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/03/27-minutes
Stuart: Raman, you may particularly want to look at the CURIE discussion
<DanC> by popular demand, I'm stayin on the HTML call for ~15min
Raman: I looked
... I can live with them
Approved.
Stuart: the f2f minutes remain open waiting for Dave to complete a fix
Meeting next week?
No regrets given; Dave proposed to scribe.
Bristol f2f logistics
Stuart: The logistics page is up, it needs work but does have the hotel in
place.
... I have a block of rooms reserved at the Rodney for Sun, Mon, Tue.
89GBP/night, breakfast included
... Make sure you call to make your booking so that you get one of the
rooms in the block
... If you extend your stay, you should get the same rate, but check the
web as well because you might get cheaper rates for less recently
refurbished rooms.
... If you book outside the block, that won't cause any headache for me or
HP.
Issue RDFinXHTML-35
Stuart: Norm, you took an action.
Norm: Yes, I did, but then I thought better of it.
Raman: Is there a coordination effort? Absolutely. But it's not with
respect to RDFa; RDFa is just in the noise compared to the schism.
Norm: I took my action to be with respect to RDFa
Raman: Right. But the larger issue definitely exists.
TimBL: Are they proposing something that works with GRDDL, or are they
just adding stuff to (X)HTML.
... To get this working, you have to have the readers and the writers
doing the same thing.
... I think you should start asking people to put a profile in the
documents.
... What they're trying to do is say that all RDF aware XHTML/HTML readers
should understand these attributes.
... But in that context, the reference to GRDDL is just distracting. So
which part are they supposed to use?
... To date, I think this has been a bit muddled, which doesn't work.
Stuart: Can you formulate that as a question or comment?
TimBL: I sent it as a personal comment.
Stuart: I think the deadline has been extended to Friday.
TimBL: I'd be happy if the TAG would endorse that concern.
<DanC> "that"=?
Stuart: I've also heard you mention some concern about DTDs.
TimBL: I don't think new technologies should be based on DTDs. The
validators are driven by DTDs, but that's a problem.
DanC: RDFa uses DTDs to specify the syntax of the language.
<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to look into the charter for RDFa w.r.t. DTDs
TimBL: So it's a DTD modularization approach
<DanC> "The first option is to use XHTML Modularization 1.1 to specify an
RDF Semantics module that can be combined with existing W3C XHTML 1.1
modules. " -- http://www.w3.org/2006/07/swdwg-charter[6]
DanC checks charter: yes.
TimBL: If you are an RDF-aware HTML parser, then you don't need the DTD,
you just need to know the spec.
... And when it gets to CR, you should know the spec.
... For XHTML, you see its MIME type, or you see the XHTML namespace in
the XML, so you go to the namespace document and you find a pointer to the
GRDDL and a note about the RDFa spec.
DanC: That's not the outcome the WG decided on.
... They didn't put the GRDDL pointer in the critical path.
TimBL: Another reasonable way is to just say that you should understand
the spec. Period.
<DanC> the RDFa follow-your-nose issue is
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/28[7]
TimBL: I'm prepared to accept that, but I'm not prepared to accept a DTD
in the critical path.
<Zakim> noah, you wanted to ask whether going to the namespace URI is
enough
Noah: I think the situation is that HTML has always had open content. It's
always been OK for me to put extra tags in there. In that respect, RDFa
was always sort of OK.
... On the other hand, as far as I know, if I had that old content, it'd
point to a DTD that owuldn't help with follow-your-nose.
(Scribe missed a bit)
TimBL: No one's talking about using an extension namespace.
... We're just adding attributes to the original XHTML namespace.
Noah: But I thought you said there was a namespace to dereference?
TimBL: The original XHTML namespace document
Noah: And the MIME type is what got me there, right?
TimBL: DTDs have never figured in the follow-your nose story.
Noah: DTDs tell you about the vocabulary, the media type says roughly,
read the XML spec.
... That's not forbidden is it?
TimBL: In XML, DTDs aren't required, but I think the consortium should
move on from DTDs.
Noah: If I put non-namespaced XML out there with a DTD, I think I can
undersatnd things from the DTD.
TimBL: I don't really want to spend any time trying to build
self-describing web using DTDs.
Noah: Fair enough.
Stuart: I'm trying to find out if the TAG has any consensus comments it
wants to make.
... I guess if it is going to have any, we need a draft of comments which
I have none.
DanC: I sent a comment that said please change your test suite to reflect
the SHOULD in your spec.
... TimBL, I hear you saying that it should be in the XHTML namespace
document.
TimBL: yes.
DanC: You can just do that as webmaster, I think.
TimBL: Yeah, I need to find out what the GRDDL spec says about how to do
it.
DanC: There's a redirect in there, but I'm not sure how that works.
<DanC> ACTION: Tim consult with Dan and Ralph about the gap between the
XHTML namespace and the GRDDL transformation for RDFa [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/04/03-minutes.html#action01[8]]
<DanC> everything timbl has sent to the relevant list:
http://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/advanced_search?keywords=&hdr-1-name=subject&hdr-1-query=&hdr-2-name=from&hdr-2-query=berners&hdr-3-name=message-id&hdr-3-query=&period_month=&period_year=&index-grp=Public__FULL&index-type=t&type-index=public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf&resultsperpage=20&sortby=date[9]
<DanC> tim's comment on DTDs is in
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Mar/0297.html[10]
DanC: I can't endorse your first comment under DTDs, because of the
charter, though I do agree with it.
<noah> I strongly concur with Tim's 4.3 point. RDFa fundamentally
contributes to what the meaning of a document >is<; the fact that software
may wish to extract such triples is secondary.
DanC: Putting the GRDDL pointer in XHTML is problematic.
<DanC> ah... good... the GRDDL spec doesn't say *never* look it up: "Some
namespace documents, such as the XHTML namespace document
http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml[11] have very many references to them. If
GRDDL-aware agents were to retrieve these documents every time they
processed a document referring to them, the origin servers of those
documents could become overloaded. GRDDL-aware agents therefore should not
retrieve such documents on every reference and should retain
<DanC> some cache or local memory of the transformations those documents
indicate should be applied. To avoid misrepresentation of published
information, GRDDL-aware agents should ensure that this local memory is up
to date and should support user options to configure or disable the cache.
See also section section 3.1. Using a URI to Access a Resource of
[WEBARCH]." -- http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/[12]
Some discussion of the tension between self-describing and not beating the
W3C web server to death extracting DTDs.
Stuart asks again for clarity on what comment we might like to make to the
RDFa WG
Some discussion of whether or not the WG has produced a GRDDL transform
that implements RDFa
<DanC> Progress on the RDFa GRDDL transform Fabien Gandon (Friday, 28
March)
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Mar/0355.html[13]
<DanC> "So I guess this version of the GRDDL transform for RDFa is up to
date with the current tests and specs as far as I know." --
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Mar/0366.html[14]
<DanC> gold star to Fabien
Stuart: It would take some wordsmithing to change TimBL's message into
something that would get universal support.
... They've extended their comment period for this document through
Friday.
... Ok, at this point, I think the TAG has no comment to make on RDFa, so
I'm going to move on.
... I think we might want to say something about CURIEs in RDFa later.
... I find it odd that there's a normative definition of CURIEs in RDFa
when CURIEs are defined normatively in a separate spec.
DanC: They wanted to talk about it and we said not this week
TimBL: Are we doing to invite them in the future?
Stuart: Yes, that's being negotiated.
tagSoupIntegration-54
DanC: WRT action-7, Olivier has a neat diagram and TimBLs seen it, and
we're meeting again next Tuesday.
... The diagram is almost public. Good news.
<DanC> (ah! olivier did indeed make the diagram world-access
http://www.w3.org/2008/03/validators-chart[15] )
Stuart: I'll leave that as continuing.
... Ok, a bigger issue is ARIA host-language embedding
<noah> Michael Cooper's summary is excellent, IMO
Stuart: There's a summary from Michael Cooper from today.
-> http://www.w3.org/2008/03/aria-implementation
<DanC> (I cited Cooper's summary in the HTML WG telcon that I was just on)
Stuart: As a device for motivating discussion, I have two separate
proposals that I think we could make.
<Stuart> Proposal #P1:
<Stuart> The no-namespace ARIA embedding approach is a workable pragmatic
solution to a problem induced by the lack of support for namespaces in
HTMLs (v1.0-5.0) and by the mixed, [encrusted,] behaviours of user-agents
and associated libraries when presented with attribute names and values
that contain colons. It is regrettable that this situation exists. In the
short-term the TAG recognise the aria- 'prefixing' approach can and will
meet the needs for embedding ARIA in a limited number of host languages.
The TAG believe that the right medium term answer is that a uniform HTML
behaviour is specified for the handling of attribute names and values that
contain colons as means to co-exists in an XML namespaced world. In the
long term the TAG is of the opinion that XML namespaces is the correct
architectural approach for distributed extensibility of web languages.
Stuart: Straw poll? +1 for support, -1 for not, +0 to abstain?
<DanC> +0; i.e. abstain
<noah> I think this is in the ballpark, but it sort of skirts a key
question, which is >why< we think it's worth the trouble to push for a
more generalized solution in the medium term.
<DanC> (my tiny brain needs to stare at test materials)
<noah> We may believe that, but we haven't justified it in the above.
<dorchard> +1 to Noah
<noah> +0
<noah> For reason above.
<Norm> -0.5
<timbl> +0.5
Norm: I hate to give the hyphens a toe-hold
<Stuart> Proposal #P2
<Stuart> We (the TAG) believe that the only approach consistent with web
<Stuart> architecture for embedding ARIA in host languages is the
namespace based
<Stuart> approach. We will support ARIA in demanding namespace support in
HTML5;
<Stuart> We will lobby browser/toolkit vendors to fix the namespace and
<Stuart> colon-name/-colon-value attribute support;... and we will wait
loudly
<Stuart> until Hell freezes over! [was going to say 'quietly' but then
what really
<Stuart> would be the point?]
Raman: I'd like to reiterate what Norm said, the hyphens are a new
namespace mechanism whether you call it that or not.
Norm: But I note that the problem is one of credibility. If we say that
and get ignored...we don't have any.
<DanC> (Al gilman forwarded test materials by hsivonen
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Mar/0069.html[17] )
Raman: I think the credibility question goes both ways
<Zakim> noah, you wanted to say we need to work through the issues in
Michael Cooper's note
Noah: I think we've signaled informally before that we believe this is
where we should go.
... Michael Cooper has provided a carefully crafted reply; if we're going
to go in the direction of P2, we need to carefully consider and respond to
Michael.
... Given a choice, with no further work, I'm closer to P1 than P2.
<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to say that I'm more or less at peace with the
way ARIA is going: they did the URI-based design to the Nth degree; the
experiment succeeded, and now they're
<DanC> . http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/51[18]
DanC: I like the pattern that says you make up a full URI and play in your
own backyard.
... Then when you are sure what you have is globally useful, you
negotiation in some open process for short strings.
<DanC> "if it picks up steam, introduce a synonym that is a short string
thru a fair/open process."
DanC: I'm not going to complain if the short string has a dash in it.
Stuart: I think they've tried all the ways around the problem. The
solution they've got is pragmatic, forced upon them by the state of the
world, and with some reluctance, I don't think there's a better answer.
Raman: But now there's an answer to the earlier question. Working groups
are supposed to get intergrated into HTML by negotiation on an
element-by-element, attribute-by-attribute basis.
... If that's where we are, that's what we should say.
Stuart: Once you start giving a toe hold, then the floodgates open.
TimBL: We have to be careful. I think we should explore all of these
angles. If you've got a good relationship with the HTML WG, then you can
negotiate it. Maybe that's the cost effective answer.
... For other things, that's not going to work.
... I'm becoming more sympathetic to the first statement.
... But it shouldn't be taken as a precedent.
... The idea of using SVG without XML is horrifying.
... If I was writing a parser, I'd have a single parser that did error
correction, displaying error messages, and only doing "view source" on the
error-corrected tree.
... I suggest we tackle it from the ohter side as well.
... We (the TAG) should formally say there's a default namespace that
comes from the MIME-type.
<DanC> (I'm party to the negotiation around ARIA in HTML 5; records are
in/near http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/14[19] ; the issue is as
yet still open; the agreements aren't done.)
TimBL: You could also add default namespace bindings for other namespaces.
<DanC> (I just chaired a discussion of it ~45min ago)
TimBL: It can be automated and it handles the legacy cases too.
Dave: I quite support what TimBL was saying. I haven't been party to the
HTML5/ARIA negotiations.
... But could we use it as another use case for namesapces in HTML. Right
now the HTML WG has a document about how to do vector graphics, distinct
form SVG. I find that disturbing.
... Maybe one of the things we could do is say that this is another
language mixing requirement.
... Eventually, that will encourage peopel to believe they they need/want
namespaces for a general purpose solution.
... Right now the debate seems to be mostly around the single instances of
vector graphics and math.
<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to say I think ARIA makes a poor use case for
namespaces in HTML; the value of ARIA to the global community is
sufficiently high that doing the desing,
DanC: I think ARIA is important enough to the world that it makes sense to
standardize it globally.
... I think something like FaceBookML may be a better test case.
Raman: If you observe the pattern that we went through for arai-role, and
you see where SVG and MathML are going. The world where HTML5 is is
extremely far away from where TimBL would like it to be.
... The HTML5 WG has put its foot down and said "no" to namespaces.
... Maybe that's the right thing for some cases, but that seems to be the
*only* extension mechanism available.
... Solutions that work there, will be put in other places. The pain for
doing it for a two attribute language may be small comapred to the
benefit.
Raman: But for something larger, it's going to be hard. For example, the
HTML5 WG is proposing that the MathML folks should need fewer elements.
... Saying we have one big, central spec with a single editor may work,
but I don't think it will.
... It's naive for us to say that namespaces and XML will come into HTML
in the future when the spec is being written to prevent that.
Stuart: Do you think there's consensus for that position in the HTML5 WG?
Some discussion of what consensus means in the HTML5 WG.
<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to think out loud about taking my position about
ARIA and applying them to SVG and MathML
DanC: If you take my position on ARIA and apply it to SVG and MathML, it
breaks.
... it's sort of ok if the ARIA design gets re-done for HTML.
... but not for SVG or MathML. I didn't sign up to chair that.
Raman: The MathML guys are struggling for adoption, so they're pretty
willing to do what it takes.
DanC: What I think is sort of positive is that they're telling each other
their stories.
Stuart: At some point, we ahve to work out what our group position is wrt
ARIA.
TimBL: I think we should say two things: something that says "go ahead and
do this" for ARIA and another document that says doing this for SVG would
really be a big mistake.
<DanC> (there's a non-trivial constiuency that believe re-designing SVG is
cost-effective, meanwhile.)
TimBL: It would be unbelievably costly to reopen SVG and it's absurdly
presumptive of the HTML WG to believe that they should be in total control
of extension.
... The consortium has sunk a lot of effort into this modular architecture
so that the web can grow in a decentralized way.
... I'd even be willing to say this forcefully at an AC meeting.
<raman> quotes around attributes: parse <a href=foo/>foo is a mess
<Zakim> dorchard, you wanted to ask where the assertion about HTML5 WG
saying no to namespaces has happened. I think it's still in the air
TimBL: I'd be prepared to compromise some of the XML rules in favor of
replacing XML with HTML with no namespaces and a horrible parser.
Dave: I think it needs to be stated on the record that Raman said that the
HTML WG has said "no" to namespaces. I don't think that point has been
decided yet.
... I find it ironic though that instead of redesigning SVG and MathML to
make them fit in HTML, we'd redesign XML!
<DanC> (again, design cost is not the dominant one; the dominant cost is
more connected to authoring practices and publishing workflows)
Dave: That would make all the XML languages be redesigned even though many
of them will never be embedded in HTML.
<Zakim> noah, you wanted to say I think we need to cast the SVG story as
an example of a general case
Noah: I wanted to pick up on what TimBL said. Basically, I'm very
sympathetic to that direction. Take option 1 on ARIA but send a strong
message on SVG and other, larger languages.
... What I'm missing is that SVG is an example of a general case. Here's
how you draw the line in the future.
... We need to find a way to articulate where that line is.
TimBL: If it's just a bunch of attributes and an element or two, something
you can get the HTML WG and the TAG to review, I think that would be ok.
Noah: I'm surprised that remixing wasn't part of that. For example, SVG
might have uses far away from HTML, so that makes the cost go up.
... That would be desirable for ARIA but we're sort of letting that one
go.
... It's not just a question of size, it's about the containers that you
might want to put them in.
Raman: I don't think its the container. There are two extremes: one is a
module that is just attributes. XML events, for example. The reason that
attributes are easy is because they don't contain markup.
... At the other extreme, you have a language that's purely elements.
Today, I might be able to say where in HTML you could graft in those
elements.
... The real pain point is that the embedding doesn't stop at one level.
Attribute are constrained by the technologhy.
... HTML wants to contain SVG which contains MathML which contains HTML.
... The leakiness of this, when you cut and paste, for example, is the
problem.
<Stuart> FWIW: I asked Michael about what ARIA-WG would recommend for
embedding ARIA in XHTML response at:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Apr/0011.html[20]
Raman: In Atom, for example, the HTML gets put in as a blob. As long as
the HTML view of the world is that I will not only error correct but I
will also consume everything the problem is insurmountable.
<DanC> (is Atom really losing the XML-wf battle?)
<Zakim> timbl, you wanted to suggest that DaveO doesn't understand the
total cost and impliction s on XML of this path .. it will start with
ebedding HTML inside his XML PO which will
TimBL: I support what Raman said. Changing XML would affect your purchase
orders, but putting HTML in your POs will then force you to change them
all anyway.
<DanC> (well, no, I think there's a world of purchase orders and such that
have no interaction with HTML. It's not considered "on the Web" by many,
and in fact, its community is pretty disconnected from the HTML+CSS+JS
community)
TimBL: An HTML parser has to know which elements have to be empty. I think
if XML isn't fixed and we don't go to a lot of effort to make it and
namespaces easier to use, you'll wind up with tag soup *everywhere*
<DanC> (phpht. my phone battery died)
<noah> I'm very nervous about "fixing" XML, not because there isn't merit
in principle, but because we've seen that even isolated changes like XML
1.1 are extremely hard to deploy in practice.
<noah> The XML community values stability, IMO, almost above all else.
Dave: I think it's bigger than quoted attribute values, like Norm said.
<raman> <a href=foo/>foo is a mess here
Dave: I'm in favor of changes, I just want to know what the scope is.
... I think the community is ready, maybe better integration with HTML is
the killer use case.
<noah> As Dave is saying, I'm not against changing XML, but iff users will
see compelling cost benefit. So far, we've shown relatively poor ability
to make the call of what users will actually deploy wrt/ XML changes.
Stuart: I wanted to try to place some actions.
... Noah, would you be able to do some shaping on the proposal I labeled
as P1?
<jar> #P3: ??? Web architecture (which is the TAG's realm) implies
namespaces. We recognize that they are incompatible with HTML5. Ergo HTML5
lies outside our charter. Wish them well, ask them to be as namespacey
(and web-archicture-following) as they can, it's up to them how to do it.
?????
Stuart: We need to start giving some messages back, and I wonder if you'd
work on it.
... And I'm going to press TimBL to draft the other message.
Raman: I suggest that if we're telling the ARIA people that what they're
doing is OK, we just send a one-liner to say that. Then write a longer,
single document that outlines both positions.
Noah: I'd be glad to take a little time right after this call to wordsmith
what Stuart wrote just a little bit. Simply make the point that in this
particular case, notwithstanding our reservations, we think it's ok.
Stuart: Ok.
... I also wanted to place a second action on TimBL to draft the other
piece.
<scribe> ACTION: Noah to wordsmith Stuart's P1 proposal [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/04/03-minutes.html#action02[21]]
Stuart: I don't want us to lose the stronger piece
<scribe> ACTION: Tim to draft to a stronger piece outlining when the ARIA
approache would not be practical [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/04/03-minutes.html#action03[22]]
Adjourned.
<timbl> A piece about the need for HTML modularity
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Noah to wordsmith Stuart's P1 proposal [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/04/03-minutes.html#action02[23]]
[NEW] ACTION: Tim consult with Dan and Ralph about the gap between the
XHTML namespace and the GRDDL transformation for RDFa [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/04/03-minutes.html#action01[24]]
[NEW] ACTION: Tim to draft to a stronger piece outlining when the ARIA
approache would not be practical [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/04/03-minutes.html#action03[25]]
[End of minutes]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] http://www.w3.org/
[2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/04/03-agenda
[3] http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-tagmem-irc
[6] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/swdwg-charter
[7] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/28
[8] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/04/03-minutes.html#action01
[9] http://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/advanced_search?keywords=&hdr-1-name=subject&hdr-1-query=&hdr-2-name=from&hdr-2-query=berners&hdr-3-name=message-id&hdr-3-query=&period_month=&period_year=&index-grp=Public__FULL&index-type=t&type-index=public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf&resultsperpage=20&sortby=date
[10] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Mar/0297.html
[11] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml
[12] http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/
[13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Mar/0355.html
[14] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Mar/0366.html
[15] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/validators-chart
[17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Mar/0069.html
[18] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/51
[19] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/14
[20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Apr/0011.html
[21] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/04/03-minutes.html#action02
[22] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/04/03-minutes.html#action03
[23] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/04/03-minutes.html#action02
[24] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/04/03-minutes.html#action01
[25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/04/03-minutes.html#action03
[26] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[27] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl[26] version 1.133 (CVS
log[27])
$Date: 2008/04/03 18:59:48 $
Received on Thursday, 3 April 2008 19:02:27 UTC