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minutes, 10 January 2013 SVG WG telcon

From: Nikos Andronikos <nikos.andronikos@cisra.canon.com.au>
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 09:48:45 +1100
Message-ID: <50EF454D.9020606@cisra.canon.com.au>
To: <www-svg@w3.org>
http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-svg-minutes.html

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                     SVG Working Group Teleconference

10 Jan 2013

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JanMar/0001.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-svg-irc

Attendees

    Present
    Regrets
    Chair
           ed

    Scribe
           nikos

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]SVGDefinitionElement
          2. [6]animateMotion on shapes
          3. [7]xml{base,lang,space} IDL attributes
          4. [8]ARIA markup
      * [9]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 10 January 2013

    <krit> "G'day"

    <scribe> scribenick: nikos

SVGDefinitionElement

    <ed>
    [10]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Dec/0097.ht
    ml

      [10] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Dec/0097.html

    heycam: When I was converting interfaces to WebIDL, I added
    SVGDefinitionElement for all the elements which are like
    definitions
    ... the only benefit it provides is it's a single place that
    the SVGTest interface can go off
    ... SVGTest has the DOM properties for systemLanguage, etc
    ... it was pointed out to me that the clip_path element doesn't
    have those attributes on it
    ... if that's the case, maybe it's not worth having it in the
    first place
    ... maybe it's better implementing SVGTests directly on
    elements that need it

    ed: I think that makes sense

    heycam: it does bring up the question of clippath not having
    these conditional processing attributes
    ... do we want to change that?

    krit: for pattern, mask, etc. We have to distinguish between
    pattern units, etc, we don't have to do that for clippath. I
    think it's hard to align clippath with the other elements
    anyway.

    <heycam>
    [11]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#ConditionalProcess
    ingOverview

      [11] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#ConditionalProcessingOverview

    heycam: the spec currently says conditional processing
    attributes have no effect on clippath and a variety of other
    elements
    ... There are others that aren't mentioned, i.e. filter
    ... I just wanted to confirm that these kinds of elements would
    remain not being affected by conditional processing attributes

    ed: have you tested to see what implementations do with these?
    ... I wouldn't be surprised if it just happened to work because
    of the way things are implemented, but I haven't tested

    heycam: Opera seems to do the right thing, Mozilla does the
    wrong thing

    ed: I would think that if if you used conditional processing
    attributes on patterns I would think it might work, as in such
    attributes used inside the pattern, but perhaps not when used
    on the <pattern> element itself

    <heycam>
    [12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Dec/0102.ht
    ml

      [12] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Dec/0102.html

    heycam: I think the current behaviour in the spec is fine, just
    wanted to confirm

    krit: is chrome following the spec?

    heycam: it is for half the elements, but not the other half
    ... the ones that are explicitly mentioned in the spec, it's
    doing the wrong thing for. For the ones that aren't mentioned
    it's doing the right thing

    resolution: Elements that conditional processing attributes
    shall remain as is in the spec, we will clarify that gradient
    and filter are also not affected.

animateMotion on shapes

    <ed>
    [13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Dec/0101.ht
    ml

      [13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Dec/0101.html

    heycam: There is a thread on the list talking about
    animateMotion applying to shapes other than path
    ... there didn't seem to be anyone who is against the idea and
    I think it's reasonable simple.

    <shepazu> +1

    birtles: Cam, you just mentioned that supporting use might be
    problematic but the others are fine

    ed: I agree, use is more complex
    ... it would potentially be the same as allowing groups

    shepazu: could we define it as well for groups?
    ... there's the document order for the group, effectively it's
    the same as defining it for a path that has multiple 'm's
    ... I don't know how hard it would be to implement, but
    defining is ok

    ed: animating each of the sub elements would be fun

    shepazu: that brings up another question, what happens if the
    path is animating?

    krit: it was demonstrated a couple of years ago at SVG Open -
    it works

    shepazu: if it was pointing at itself, what happens?

    heycam: the thing pointing is mpath
    ... if you had it pointing to a group, the thing that is being
    animated could be within that group as well
    ... the motion animation doesn't affect the link to the path
    ... it would affect the position
    ... lets do the simple features

    ed: I agree, it might be nice to have more complex elements in
    future, but we would need to think about it more

    shepazu: I think the easiest for us is to not allow use, and we
    can re-visit in future if there's a need
    ... shouldn't work for 'g' either, should only work on a single
    shape
    ... doesn't address the problem of pointing to itself
    ... where the path being animated is the path being followed

    heycam: I think we should check the spec to make sure we are
    defining what happens in that situation

    resolution: simple shapes such as circle, rect, etc, will be
    supported by animateMotion. use and groups will not be
    supported.

    shepazu: I want to make sure, with the recursion question, that
    pointing to paths or mutiple elements isn't any more of a
    problem than with simple shapes

    <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim +[IPCaller is Rich

    <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim [IPCaller is Rich

    ed: I don't think its harder to deal with recursion, we already
    have loop detection algorithms that can be tweaked.
    Implementation wise, tracking multiple elements is a bit more
    work, so there is a cost.

    <heycam> [14]http://mcc.id.au/temp/motion.svg

      [14] http://mcc.id.au/temp/motion.svg

    heycam: I think, looking at that, the animateMotion is only
    looking at the base path

    shepazu: did we decide whether the animation should be taken
    into account when recursion is used?

    heycam: I think it can't

    note for the minutes: cam's file changed from animating along a
    linear path to animating around a circular path

    krit: maybe we could copy what clip path is defining in regards
    to a set of objects

    resolution: The element that mpath references should not look
    at the motion animation of that element

    <scribe> ACTION: Brian to ensure the specification explicitly
    disallows the element that mpath references from looking at the
    motion animation of that element [recorded in
    [15]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3408 - Ensure the specification
    explicitly disallows the element that mpath references from
    looking at the motion animation of that element [on Brian
    Birtles - due 2013-01-17].

    <scribe> ACTION: Brian to update SVG 2 specification to allow
    simple shapes to be referenced by animateMotion [recorded in
    [16]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3409 - Update SVG 2 specification to
    allow simple shapes to be referenced by animateMotion [on Brian
    Birtles - due 2013-01-17].

xml{base,lang,space} IDL attributes

    <ed>
    [17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012OctDe
    c/0077.html

      [17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012OctDec/0077.html

    heycam: FireFox currently doesn't implement the DOM properties
    for these attributes
    ... somebody wrote a patch to implement them
    ... this made me wonder if we should implement all, or some,
    because we are trying t move away from xml:space
    ... I think we want to keep the xml :space behaviour, but using
    a white space property instead

    shepazu: I don't agree that we should keep around xml: space
    ... I think we should deprecate the attribute

    ed: we already agreed on that

    heycam: but we keep the behaviour
    ... are you suggesting we removing processing the attribute
    even if you do use it?

    shepazu: why do we need to keep it?

    heycam: a lot of people use it

    shepazu: are we making SVG 2 into HTML5 where the behaviour of
    SVG is the same. i.e. where SVG 2 is to SVG 1.1 what HTML 5 is
    to HTML 4.
    ... I think the changes in SVG 2 are so profound (some change
    existing SVG behaviour), and the effect of xml: space are
    actually fairly rare. People use it, but the only thing it
    means is don't get rid of the spaces
    ... I think the only place it has an effect is when you put in
    multiple spaces and you want those kept in the content - not
    collapsed
    ... so the only side effect of not supporting it is that white
    space which before kept multiple spaces between letters will
    now collapse down to a single space
    ... I don't think that's enough of a reason to keep it

    krit: I'm fine with deprecating it, but not sure about removing
    it. A lot of implementations support it

    heycam: my suggestion was to handle xml space as a user style
    sheet rule, so it gets mapped to an appropriate property value
    ... that would remove the need for special implementation for
    it
    ... but would allow it to be used in content

    shepazu: I would like to obsolete it and say user agents are
    not required to do anything with it. If UAs want to behave like
    SVG 1.1 they could
    ... but I don't think its that important
    ... we should at least deprecate it, which means we will still
    define behaviour for it and authoring tools should still
    implement it but authors shouldn't use it.

    <scribe> ACTION: Cameron to investigate xml base, and other xml
    attributes in the IDL and whether they're implemented [recorded
    in [18]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-svg-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3410 - Investigate xml base, and
    other xml attributes in the IDL and whether they're implemented
    [on Cameron McCormack - due 2013-01-17].

    ARIA markup

ARIA markup

    <ed>
    [19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JanMa
    r/0006.html

      [19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JanMar/0006.html

    krit: I agree with the list in that email
    ... it's every element that has no content

    heycam: I think theres a couple that might want ARIA markup
    ... like tspan

    shepazu: title, metadata, desc

    richardschwerdtfeger: desc is a description for something else
    right?

    shepazu: correct, it is a child of an element

    richardschwerdtfeger: you wouldn't navigate to it or anything
    ... the criteria we used is in the post

    shepazu: I thought with ARIA you define the behaviour in the
    DOM

    richardschwerdtfeger: the description would be applied to an
    object and exposed as the description for that object

    shepazu: there would be a native mapping of some SVG elements
    to acce APIs and among those would be title and description
    which would have a native mapping, they describe what they are
    a child of. So we don't need to apply ARIA attributes to those
    at all.

    richardschwerdtfeger: correct
    ... SVG already has relationships that can be used already

    shepazu: what about tspan?

    richardschwerdtfeger: I understood that tspan doesn't include
    content in your page, it is a reference within a span of text

    heycam: it's a span element itself

    richardschwerdtfeger: tspan should not be in the list then

    ed: same for textpath as well

    richardschwerdtfeger: We will remove tspan and textpath from
    the list

    shepazu: in SVG 1.2 tiny we said that you could apply the ARIA
    property 'tooltip' to a title which was a child of an element
    ... that might give behaviour of providing a tooltip

    <ed>
    [20]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/struct.html#uiTitleDescBehav
    ior

      [20] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/struct.html#uiTitleDescBehavior

    shepazu: maybe what we should do is not tie it to ARIA but tie
    it to a CSS property so you can use hover

    richardschwerdtfeger: by default, in HTML, the title attribute
    will give you a tooltip
    ... does that happen in SVG?

    krit: in some browsers it does

    richardschwerdtfeger: it's nice for people with cognitive
    impairments, but there's some situations where you don't want
    to do that
    ... we have aria-label property, which Google asked for, which
    is more specific

    shepazu: I think the best way to define the behaviour is
    through a CSS property
    ... title in HTML pretty reliably gives you a tooltip. In SVG
    thats not the case, so there may be content out there that
    assumes title has different behaviour
    ... my proposed solution is that we say title should be
    displayed as a tooltip, but that you can control that in SVG
    using display:none
    ... right now authors can't rely on the behaviour, we need to
    specify the behaviour clearly

    richardschwerdtfeger: why would people use titles that aren't
    ever going to be visually rendered?
    ... the reason I'm asking is you could use aria-label which
    computes to a name

    shepazu: some people want to have metadata, particularly title
    ... I would say the title on the SVG root shouldn't not be
    displayed

    richardschwerdtfeger: I agree

    shepazu: the behaviour I favour is to make the title of the
    root element not appear as a tooltip, the title of anything
    else does. Unless you apply css display:none
    ... I think that solves most cases

    richardschwerdtfeger: that makes sense to me

    <krit> <svg xmlns="[21]http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"
    xmlns:xlink="[22]http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink">

      [21] http://www.w3.org/2000/svg
      [22] http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink

    <krit> <rect width="100" height="100">

    <krit> <title>TEST</title>

    <krit> </rect>

    <krit> </svg>

    shepazu: I would go further and say, from an ARIA perspective,
    title is always a label.

    krit: with this example, FireFox and Opera show the tooltip

    ed: I don't think display:none would affect it in Opera

    heycam: I think we made title and desc styleable in SVG 2
    ... with the intention of it being used for something like this

    <krit> krit: It seems to be styleable in SVG 1.1 also

    heycam: I think display:none or the other values affect what
    gets rendered inside the document, while the tooltip is outside
    the document so it's a little disconcerting using display:none

    richardschwerdtfeger: maybe we would need a different property?

    shepazu: I was trying not to add extra properties

    heycam: would this discussion affect whether aria attributes
    would go on title?

    shepazu: I think it doesn't, but has an inherent characteristic

    <shepazu> [23]http://dabblet.com/gist/4506341

      [23] http://dabblet.com/gist/4506341

    Tav: question, ARIA things are attributes, but title is an
    element. Is that ok?

    richardschwerdtfeger: yes

    Tav: FireFox will display a title attribute

    heycam: are you thinking of xlink:title?

    Tav: no, just title=

    shepazu: that's because in HTML, if you put the title attribute
    on an element it always displays as a tooltip

    <heycam>
    data:image/svg+xml,<svg+xmlns="[24]http://www.w3.org/2000/svg">
    <circle+r="100"+title="blah"/></svg>

      [24] http://www.w3.org/2000/svg

    shepazu: it's not SVG behaviour but it's inheriting from HTML

    Tav: there's a reason to use the element, at the last F2F we
    made it internationalisable

    shepazu: we should define what happens when there's a title
    attribute on an element

    richardschwerdtfeger: If you have an element that you want to
    expose to assisted technology you can use the name or the
    description. These properties are exposed to the API. For
    performance reasons, I wouldn't map that to an accessibility
    object unless you apply a role to it.

    shepazu: We have addressed the issue of performance for title
    ... if the first element of a shape is not its title it is not
    rendered as a tooltip and it should not map to the name of the
    thing
    ... title has to be the first child of an element for it to be
    the label
    ... and I would say that description has to be the second
    ... this helps resolve multiple titles, etc

    richardschwerdtfeger: let me explain what I mean by performance
    ... the browser takes elements out of the DOM and creates
    accessibility objects, this is a lot of load on the browser
    ... so unless the object has semantic meaning to the AT then
    you probably don't want to map to an accessible object
    ... if you really want to support an AT, you want to apply a
    role to it

    shepazu: I think if we are worried about performance we should
    define the behaviour in terms of parsing processing
    ... in general I would say that SVG does not have semantics,
    but from the specification and the accompanying note is that
    there is a strong semantic with title
    ... I'll make a proposal on the list for this

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Brian to ensure the specification explicitly
    disallows the element that mpath references from looking at the
    motion animation of that element [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-svg-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: Brian to update SVG 2 specification to allow
    simple shapes to be referenced by animateMotion [recorded in
    [26]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-svg-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: Cameron to investigate xml base, and other xml
    attributes in the IDL and whether they're implemented [recorded
    in [27]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-svg-minutes.html#action03]

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [28]scribe.perl version
     1.137 ([29]CVS log)
     $Date: 2013-01-10 22:46:19 $
      __________________________________________________________

      [28] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [29] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

    [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.137  of Date: 2012/09/20 20:19:01
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      [30] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/ patterns I would think it might work/ patterns I would thi
nk it might work, as in such attributes used inside the pattern, but per
haps not when used on the <pattern> element itself/
Succeeded: s/fillpath/filter/
Succeeded: s/simpmle/simple/
Succeeded: s/cant'/can't/
Found ScribeNick: nikos
Inferring Scribes: nikos

WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: Doug_Schepers IPcaller Tav aaaa aabb birtles cabanier
data ed heycam https joined krit nikos richardschwerdtfeger scribenick s
hepazu svg trackbot
You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
         <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary
         <dbooth> Present+ amy

Agenda: [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JanMar
/0001.html
Found Date: 10 Jan 2013
Guessing minutes URL: [32]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: brian cameron

      [31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JanMar/0001.html
      [32] http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-svg-minutes.html


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