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minutes, 15 December 2011 SVG WG telcon

From: Cameron McCormack <cam@mcc.id.au>
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 08:36:42 +1100
Message-ID: <4EEA686A.1010702@mcc.id.au>
To: SVG public list <www-svg@w3.org>
Minutes from today's SVG WG telcon are at:

   http://www.w3.org/2011/12/15-svg-minutes.html

and below as text.


    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                    SVG Working Group Teleconference

15 Dec 2011

    [2]Agenda

       [2] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011OctDec/0107.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2011/12/15-svg-irc

Attendees

    Present
           ChrisL, [IPcaller], heycam, vhardy, Tav, ed, ericm,
           Doug_Schepers, cyril

    Regrets
    Chair
           Erik

    Scribe
           Cameron

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]F2F with CSS
          2. [6]telcon schedule with holidays
          3. [7]mini-TPAC
          4. [8]Sydney F2F
          5. [9]charter
          6. [10]FOSDEM
          7. [11]SVG2 spec editing status
          8. [12]SVG2 requirements, continued
      * [13]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 15 December 2011

    <ed> trackbot, end telcon

    <Tav> On one page it does say 20:00 GMT.

    <ChrisL> still no booking for the call?

    <ChrisL> flights booked for australia

    <ed> 20:00-21:30Z

    <ed> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)

    <cabanier> what is the passcode?

    <ed> cabanier: 26631

    <cabanier> i says that the conference is full

    <ed> Agenda:
    [14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011OctDec/010
    7.html

      [14] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011OctDec/0107.html

    <vhardy> Please note the bridge has changed to 26633 (_not_ 26631
    anymore)

    <scribe> Scribe: Cameron

    <scribe> ScribeNick: heycam

F2F with CSS

    VH: there's a UEFA championship happening in that week

    … so it's difficult to book travel/hotels

    … we've updated the page with hotel information and pricing

    … it's not too bad, there are hotels 60-170

    … one of the worries is about travel

    … we sent a questionnaire to the CSS WG

    … wasn't sure if CSS/SVG should use the same questionnaire

    … otherwise we could just decide that we want to go one particular
    way in the group

    … the CSS WG is leaning towards changing the date of the meeting, at
    the same location

    <ChrisL> the poll shows just as many people wanting to change the
    location and keep the date

    … we (hosts) would also prefer to keep the same location

    … but we could also host in Hamburg on the same dates

    CL: can't seem to edit the CSS WG's questionnaire to allow SVG
    people to respond to it

    CM: are there specific dates if we keep the same location?

    VH: probably before. after I can't.

    <ChrisL> change the location and keep the same dates? has 8 yes and
    5 yes-and-prefer

    CM: same for me

    VH: probably the better option is to do it just one week before, in
    the same place, or we move it

    CL: I can't do it one week before, I'm attending a conference

    <ChrisL> libre graphics s the week before

    VH: some other CSS people can't do it the week before

    <ChrisL> ac meeting is the week after

    CL: looking at the results so far from CSS, the third option of
    "change the location keep the date" seems to be the strongest option

    <vhardy>
    [15]https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/32061/css-2012-05/results

      [15] https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/32061/css-2012-05/results

    CM: I can't do week after

    RC: I have no constraints

    VH: we need Chris, and some of the other CSS people who can't make
    it the week before

    … I will give an update early January about the F2F

    <cabanier> * Adobe office in Hamburg is very nice

    <scribe> ACTION: Vincent to email CSS WG to say that the SVG WG
    prefers to move the location and keep the same date [recorded in
    [16]http://www.w3.org/2011/12/15-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3185 - Email CSS WG to say that the SVG WG
    prefers to move the location and keep the same date [on Vincent
    Hardy - due 2011-12-22].

telcon schedule with holidays

    ED: the four next telcons scheduled

    <ed> 22 Dec, 29 Dec, 5 Jan, 12 Jan

    <ChrisL> do we have a f2f agenda for preparation over the holidays?

    CC: I cannot make 29 Dec

    ED: I can make 22 Dec and 5 Jan

    DS: I might be able to make 5 Jan, not sure

    ED: so let's cancel 29 Dec, and 12 Jan

    … let's keep 22 Dec and 5 Jan on

    <ChrisL> my regrets for 22 Dec and 5 Jan

    <ed> ACTION: ed to send a reminder to the list about the telcon
    schedule (cancelling 29 dec, 12 jan) [recorded in
    [17]http://www.w3.org/2011/12/15-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3186 - Send a reminder to the list about
    the telcon schedule (cancelling 29 dec, 12 jan) [on Erik Dahlström -
    due 2011-12-22].

mini-TPAC

    <shepazu>
    [18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-scriptlib/2011Nov/000
    0.html

      [18] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-scriptlib/2011Nov/0000.html

    DS: there was a suggestion from some of the chairs that several
    groups get together and colocate a meeting in Silicon Valley

    … at least one chair pushed back on that, saying their group needed
    more lead time to organise that

    … Mike Smith said there was still interest in coordinating script
    library people

    … so there's an idea of doing it in either March or May

    … if a WG doesn't want to show up, it doesn't have to, but we might
    want to coordinate informally

    … there's value in us getting together with the script library folks

    TB: what do you mean by script libraries?

    DS: things like jQuery, dojo, d3, raphael. not sure who exactly who
    would show up

    … but definitely the jQuery folks would

    … there's a lot of interest from the script librarians about the
    Component Model, and I think it would be beneficial to be in the
    same room to talk about these things

    … at TPAC we ran out of time

    … I think it would be good for the SVG WG to be in there

    CM: what's the proposed duration of the mini TPAC?

    DS: let's follow up on the mailing list

Sydney F2F

    <shepazu> [19]http://svgsocial.eventbrite.com/

      [19] http://svgsocial.eventbrite.com/

    DS: Chris you may be surprised to see you're on the agenda here

    CL: ok, that's fine

    DS: I thought it would be a good idea to meet up with web developers

    … we may have 50-60 people signed up to attend

    … it is a free event

    … I figure each of us who is interested can do a demo

    … we might have a short panel session

    … Dmitri Baranovsky might be interested in presenting too

    CM: that's the Thursday night

    DS: yes

    … location TBA

    … we should think about what we should present to them

    … I was thinking of doing something brief on integrating SVG and
    HTML

    … maybe Erik you can do some SVG Wow stuff

charter

    CL: the charter is expected to go back out to the AC this week

    <ChrisL> includes requessted edits on SVG DOM refactoring from RIM
    and Opera

FOSDEM

    <ChrisL> [20]http://fosdem.org/2012/

      [20] http://fosdem.org/2012/

    CL: I've put in a talk to FOSDEM at the beginning of February at the
    Colour Management session

    … I'll be talking about the SVG2 Color chapter, and getting feedback
    from people there

    <ChrisL> talk is about color management in svg2. i have provisional
    acceptance

SVG2 spec editing status

    <ed>
    [21]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011OctDec/008
    2.html

      [21] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011OctDec/0082.html

    CL: I read through the document you (Tav) wrote

    … I don't like cid on portions of something

    … it should link to an outermost container for a property definition
    (or whatever)

    … if you're using a <dl> as a block container I'd rather see the id
    on the <dl> itself

    … I like the way you've laid it out, the markup is much better

    … I agree we should do properties and attributes in a similar way if
    possible

    … but it would be good to have it styled the same way as in CSS
    specs, for properties

    CC: there are two versions of attribute definitions

    … I agree with the change proposed by Tav (the linear gradient one)

    <cyril>
    [22]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/pservers.html#LinearGradients

      [22] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/pservers.html#LinearGradients

    <ChrisL>
    [23]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/pservers.html#LinearGradients

      [23] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/pservers.html#LinearGradients

    <scribe> ACTION: Tav to ask Vincent for feedback on the spec styling
    [recorded in
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2011/12/15-svg-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3187 - Ask Vincent for feedback on the
    spec styling [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2011-12-22].

SVG2 requirements, continued

    <cyril>
    [25]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#A
    dvanced_pattern_methods

      [25] 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#Advanced_pattern_methods

    CC: next is Advanced Pattern Methods

    CM: Olaf's dot point here is brief

    <ChrisL> There was a call for halftone screening as well, could be
    done as a pattern

    … but I remember he mentioned somewhere else about different
    mathetmatical tiling methods

    … there are 12 of them? I can't remember the name.

    TB: 13 I think. symmetries. Inkscape supports those.

    … another request was for half toning

    RC: half toning is not really a pattern

    TB: might make more sense in filters

    RC: what is the use case for half toning? print or on screen?

    TB: on screen

    <Tav>
    [26]http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Tiles-Trace.html

      [26] http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Tiles-Trace.html

    TB: the star is the pattern

    … you can change the size, colour, based on the colour underneath

    … this actually uses <use>

    RC: programmatically in inkscape itself? not in the language?

    TB: yes

    RC: for half toning, maybe you could have a filter that takes a spot
    function

    … you would feed in the value of the colour, typically you have four
    spot functions (CMYK)

    … you fill in the value of the colour and out comes the region of
    the cell you will paint

    … half toning is like cells with pixels in them

    … you tile that, and feed in the colour values into the spot
    function

    <ChrisL>
    [27]http://qualityinprint.blogspot.com/2009/06/custom-halftone-dots.
    html

      [27] 
http://qualityinprint.blogspot.com/2009/06/custom-halftone-dots.html

    [28]http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Tiles.html

      [28] http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Tiles.html

    <ChrisL> the dot screens are at different angles because they are
    opaque (for ink) but that gives rosette pattersn where the dots form
    clusters

    TB: for the tiling, you take a single object or group and inkscape
    knows the size of it

    <ed>
    [29]http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Tiles-Symmetries.ht
    ml

      [29] 
http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Tiles-Symmetries.html

    … looking at
    [30]http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Tiles-Symmetries.ht
    ml

      [30] 
http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Tiles-Symmetries.html

    … it just computes the position of where to put the tiles

    <ChrisL> rosettes, see
    [31]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_lNzlqVMcIj8/Si6ZsNCWLaI/AAAAAAAAAuw/4T
    nbKSrvtWM/s1600/Birthday+Bitmapped.jpg

      [31] 
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_lNzlqVMcIj8/Si6ZsNCWLaI/AAAAAAAAAuw/4TnbKSrvtWM/s1600/Birthday+Bitmapped.jpg

    … in the first example, the bounding box extends outside the tiling
    area, so you get overlap

    … in inkscape you can adjust the overlap, the "pattern size"

    CM: that sets a clip?

    TB: the pattern can extend outside

    … if you want to pattern something on a rectangular grid, you can
    choose to do it on a grid smaller than the size of the bounding box

    … and then you get overlaps

    <cyril> rosettes:
    [32]http://qualityinprint.blogspot.com/2009/04/rosettes-everything-y
    ou-didnt-realize.html

      [32] 
http://qualityinprint.blogspot.com/2009/04/rosettes-everything-you-didnt-realize.html

    … in some cases, when you're doing hexagonal tiling, if you are not
    careful you will get content outside the tiling area and you'll get
    overlaps

    … it would be fairly straightforward to specify, not sure how useful
    it is

    … inkscape not only can do those tiling symmetries, see the
    following pages

    … you can add random shifts, shrink or expand the tiles

    CC: is there anything in common with the Tiling & Layering work in
    the Mapping TF?

    CL: not really, that's more for multi resolution images

    … where you're automatically tiling where they butt together,
    producing an image by slicing it into multiple pieces

    … it's not a repeating pattern

    TB: one place where this might be useful is in Mapping

    <ChrisL> see
    [33]http://www.w3.org/Submission/2011/SUBM-SVGTL-20110607/

      [33] http://www.w3.org/Submission/2011/SUBM-SVGTL-20110607/

    … if you want a pattern to show a swamp, the density say

    … if you could turn a gradient into a density map, add a bit of
    randomness

    <ChrisL> in particular
    [34]http://www.w3.org/Submission/2011/SUBM-SVGTL-20110607/#Tiling

      [34] http://www.w3.org/Submission/2011/SUBM-SVGTL-20110607/#Tiling

    <cyril> [35]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2310

      [35] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2310

    CC: the next requirement on the page is also about advanced patterns

    <cyril>
    [36]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Feb/0082.html

      [36] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Feb/0082.html

    <cyril> [37]http://www.w3.org/2010/03/01-svg-minutes.html#item06

      [37] http://www.w3.org/2010/03/01-svg-minutes.html#item06

    ED: my email is not something as advanced as these tiling symmetries

    … more about tightening up existing patterns

    CC: does it make sense to merge these two entries?

    CL: I think so

    TB: I think they're different

    … Erik's is clarification/corrections to the spec

    … this current requirement is a new feature

    CC: I won't merge then

    CM: do you have a sense Tav in how useful these tiling symmetries
    might be?

    TB: not sure it's that useful to include the symmetries

    … including screening might be nice, though

    … something that can simulate half toning or screening

    CM: I'd like to see some brief writeup before accepting it

    <scribe> ACTION: Tav to write up a brief summary of what a half
    toning feature would look like [recorded in
    [38]http://www.w3.org/2011/12/15-svg-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3188 - Write up a brief summary of what a
    half toning feature would look like [on Tavmjong Bah - due
    2011-12-22].

    <scribe> ACTION: Tav to get clarification from Olaf on what his
    advanced pattern request is [recorded in
    [39]http://www.w3.org/2011/12/15-svg-minutes.html#action05]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3189 - Get clarification from Olaf on what
    his advanced pattern request is [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2011-12-22].

    <ed>
    [40]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing
    _List_Feedback#Video.2Faudio_on_demand

      [40] 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback#Video.2Faudio_on_demand

    ED: next one is "Video/Audio on Demand"
    ... we did resolve at TPAC to have video and audio elements simliar
    to HTML5, or with the same functionality

    <ChrisL> same dom or same markup?

    CC: we concluded that we wanted to have the HTML5 video/audio
    elements, unmodified

    <ChrisL> because the svg tiny 1.2 ones have better markup but sucky
    dom

    <ChrisL> sigh

    <ChrisL> so, no time containers on audio and video then

    CM: did you discuss issues of namespaces, or overlap between
    HTML/SVG elements?

    CC: I think it was going to be in the SVG namespace

    <cyril> [41]http://www.w3.org/2011/11/04-svg-minutes.html#item12

      [41] http://www.w3.org/2011/11/04-svg-minutes.html#item12

    <cyril> "RESOLUTION: SVG 2 will have a video element in SVG
    namespace with the same characteristics as the HTML 5 video element"

    ED: "same characteristics" doesn't necessarily mean there are no
    differences

    RC: this is for SVG that's not running in a browser?

    … because you don't have foreignObject?

    CM: in the minutes the question was raised about foreignObject, how
    it would be different

    … and Jen said that IE doesn't do foreignObject

    DS: just because we're having at least the same features as HTML's
    video element doesn't mean we can't go beyond that, right?

    CC: I agree with you but I don't think that's what the people from
    the Media TF wanted

    … they wanted a single version of the element

    … they wanted us to modify the HTML5 video element if we wanted
    additional features

    … but I shouldn't speak in their stead

    DS: ultimately the video element is going to have to change at some
    point, so we should keep current on any changes… we want it
    full-featured, but only a single underlying codebase

    ED: I think what Olaf is asking for is basically the controls
    attribute on the audio/video controls, not everything else

    CM: olaf's request then doesn't contradict with our plans for
    audio/video

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: ed to send a reminder to the list about the telcon
    schedule (cancelling 29 dec, 12 jan) [recorded in
    [42]http://www.w3.org/2011/12/15-svg-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: Tav to ask Vincent for feedback on the spec styling
    [recorded in
    [43]http://www.w3.org/2011/12/15-svg-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: Tav to get clarification from Olaf on what his
    advanced pattern request is [recorded in
    [44]http://www.w3.org/2011/12/15-svg-minutes.html#action05]
    [NEW] ACTION: Tav to write up a brief summary of what a half toning
    feature would look like [recorded in
    [45]http://www.w3.org/2011/12/15-svg-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: Vincent to email CSS WG to say that the SVG WG prefers
    to move the location and keep the same date [recorded in
    [46]http://www.w3.org/2011/12/15-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________
Received on Thursday, 15 December 2011 21:37:24 GMT

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