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Re: [css-counter-styles] japanese-informal counter style

From: 신정식 <jshin1987@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2013 22:10:12 -0700
Message-ID: <CAE1ONj_7T9T6p2f9aEerK7tpVNFAUiLi5tqBpD2QVKT5=ZwWRw@mail.gmail.com>
To: MURAKAMI Shinyu <murakami@antenna.co.jp>
Cc: Koji Ishii <kojiishi@gluesoft.co.jp>, "Tab Atkins Jr." <jackalmage@gmail.com>, www-style list <www-style@w3.org>, "CJK discussion (public-i18n-cjk@w3.org)" <public-i18n-cjk@w3.org>
You beat me to ICU/CLDR RBNF :-)   IIRC, CLDR RBNF rules were referred to
when CSS3 counter styles were made, but obviously they're not identical.
 Note that CLDR RBNF rules are not set in stone and can be changed as
necessary.

BTW, thank you for bringing this up for Japanese. Both Korean
Hangul(formal) and Korean Hanja (formal) in the current draft have a
similar issues with '10', '100' and '1,000' etc in . I meant to take a look
at this before this gets finalized but I have been dragging feet.

Moreover, the suffix for Korean should not be U+3001 (ideographic comma)
but should be just ASCII comma.

I'll get back with more details.

Jungshik


On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 9:13 PM, MURAKAMI Shinyu <murakami@antenna.co.jp>wrote:

> Koji Ishii <kojiishi@gluesoft.co.jp> wrote on 2013/08/17 21:25:52
> > > > Maybe there are just different styles taught across the country?
> > >
> > > For Japanese informal style,
> > > "一十", "一十一", "一百", "一百一" are wrong, absolutely.
> >
> > Agreed, these are not about styles, just wrong. I thought we did this
> correctly before, don't know when this was changed, or maybe I missed
> before.
> >
> >
> > > "一千" is sometimes used, especially "一千万円" (ten million yen) is often
> used rather than
> > > "千万円", but this case is exceptional and not required for
> japanese-informal style.
> > >
> > > I tested Excel's [Format Cells - Number - 漢数字/Japanese] and got
> > > "一万千百十一" for 11111. (See the attached screen shot) I believe Excel's
> numbering is
> > > correct at least for Japanese styles.
> >
> > "一千" is ambiguous for me, and can be counted as "different styles" as
> Tab says. My preference varies by the numbers, and quick thinking is that,
> I guess bad cases for not having it is worse than having it, such as:
> >   一万一千百十一 vs 一万千百十一: whichever is fine
> >   一千 vs 千: the latter is slightly better
> >   一千万 vs 千万: the former is much better
> >   一億一千百十一 vs 一億千百十一: the former is slightly better
> >
> > Interestingly, Word and Excel disagrees on "千". I recently heard that
> ICU has a function to format i18n numbers, does anybody know what ICU
> produces?
>
> See
> ICU  >  Demonstrations  >  Locale Explorer > Root > Japanese
> http://demo.icu-project.org/icu-bin/locexp?d_=en&_=ja
>     ...
>     NumberPatterns4 ... 千二百三十四・五六
>
> The ICU's source data is found at
> http://source.icu-project.org/repos/icu/icu/trunk/source/data/rbnf/
> and this seems to be equivalent to the Unicode CLDR
> (Common Locale Data Repository) RBNF (Rule-Based Number Format) data
> http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/browser/trunk/common/rbnf
>
> ja.xml
> ------
>             <ruleset type="spellout-cardinal">
>             ...
>                 <rbnfrule value="1000">千[→→];</rbnfrule>
>             ...
>                 <rbnfrule value="10000">←←万[→→];</rbnfrule>
>
> This means "千" does not require the preceding one and
> "万" does require the one ("←←" indicates).
>
> This rule produces "千万", "一億千百十一", "一万千百十一", "千" and
> not "一千万" etc.
>
> I found the RBNF data is very interesting and it would be
> a good reference. (CSS counter styles should be compatible
> with the Unicode RBNF data?)
> About Korean styles, the RBNF data ko.xml includes several hangul
> styles, but unfortunately no Korean Hanja styles.
>
>
> Shinyu Murakami
> Antenna House
>
>
>
Received on Sunday, 18 August 2013 05:10:41 UTC

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