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Re: [css-counter-styles] japanese-informal counter style

From: MURAKAMI Shinyu <murakami@antenna.co.jp>
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 13:13:03 +0900
To: Koji Ishii <kojiishi@gluesoft.co.jp>
Cc: Tab Atkins Jr. <jackalmage@gmail.com>, www-style list <www-style@w3.org>, "CJK discussion (public-i18n-cjk@w3.org)" <public-i18n-cjk@w3.org>
Message-Id: <20130818131301.DF17.C598BCD7@antenna.co.jp>
Koji Ishii <kojiishi@gluesoft.co.jp> wrote on 2013/08/17 21:25:52
> > > Maybe there are just different styles taught across the country?
> > 
> > For Japanese informal style,
> > "一十", "一十一", "一百", "一百一" are wrong, absolutely.
> 
> Agreed, these are not about styles, just wrong. I thought we did this correctly before, don't know when this was changed, or maybe I missed before.
> 
> 
> > "一千" is sometimes used, especially "一千万円" (ten million yen) is often used rather than
> > "千万円", but this case is exceptional and not required for japanese-informal style.
> > 
> > I tested Excel's [Format Cells - Number - 漢数字/Japanese] and got
> > "一万千百十一" for 11111. (See the attached screen shot) I believe Excel's numbering is
> > correct at least for Japanese styles.
> 
> "一千" is ambiguous for me, and can be counted as "different styles" as Tab says. My preference varies by the numbers, and quick thinking is that, I guess bad cases for not having it is worse than having it, such as:
>   一万一千百十一 vs 一万千百十一: whichever is fine
>   一千 vs 千: the latter is slightly better
>   一千万 vs 千万: the former is much better
>   一億一千百十一 vs 一億千百十一: the former is slightly better
> 
> Interestingly, Word and Excel disagrees on "千". I recently heard that ICU has a function to format i18n numbers, does anybody know what ICU produces?

See
ICU  >  Demonstrations  >  Locale Explorer > Root > Japanese
http://demo.icu-project.org/icu-bin/locexp?d_=en&_=ja
    ...
    NumberPatterns4 ... 千二百三十四・五六

The ICU's source data is found at 
http://source.icu-project.org/repos/icu/icu/trunk/source/data/rbnf/
and this seems to be equivalent to the Unicode CLDR 
(Common Locale Data Repository) RBNF (Rule-Based Number Format) data
http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/browser/trunk/common/rbnf

ja.xml
------
            <ruleset type="spellout-cardinal">
            ...
                <rbnfrule value="1000">千[→→];</rbnfrule>
            ...
                <rbnfrule value="10000">←←万[→→];</rbnfrule>

This means "千" does not require the preceding one and 
"万" does require the one ("←←" indicates).

This rule produces "千万", "一億千百十一", "一万千百十一", "千" and
not "一千万" etc.

I found the RBNF data is very interesting and it would be
a good reference. (CSS counter styles should be compatible
with the Unicode RBNF data?)
About Korean styles, the RBNF data ko.xml includes several hangul
styles, but unfortunately no Korean Hanja styles.


Shinyu Murakami
Antenna House
Received on Sunday, 18 August 2013 04:13:27 UTC

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