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Re: [css3-writing-modes] before/after terminology alternative?

From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 18:40:44 -0700
Message-ID: <4FE27B9C.1030508@inkedblade.net>
To: www-style@w3.org
On 06/01/2012 06:55 AM, MURAKAMI Shinyu wrote:
> fantasai<fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>  wrote on 2012/05/30 1:10:43
>> On 05/29/2012 08:56 AM, Sylvain Galineau wrote:
>>> [L. David Baron:]
>>>> Are we sure 'head' / 'foot' are actually writing-mode-independent terms,
>>>> as opposed to effectively being terms for 'top' / 'bottom'?
>>> Right; I think the assumption here is that web authors will see head/foot and
>>> think header/footer. Fwiw I think that is a reasonable assumption [...]
>> Yes, that was exactly my first thought!
> Unfortunately, head/foot as alternative terminology of before/after are inconsistent with Japanese layout terminology in JLREQ[1]:
> Terminology	Japanese	Romanized transliteration	Definition
> head	天	ten	a) The top part of a book or a page.
> 			b) The top margin between the top edge of a trimmed page and the hanmen (text area)
> 			(JIS Z 8125)
> foot	地	chi	a) The bottom part of a book or a page.
> 			b) The bottom margin between the edge of a trimmed page and the hanmen (text area)
> 			(JIS Z 8125)

I kindof like "sky" and "ground" for the top and bottom of the book. :)
It sounds very poetic.

> headnote	頭注	tōchū	A kind of notes in vertical writing style, head area in kihon-hanmen is kept beforehand, and notes are set with smaller size font than main text.
> footnote	脚注	kyakuchū	A note in a smaller face than that of main text, placed at the bottom of a page. (JIS Z 8125)

Hm, these ones might be a concern.

But then what about the header and footer of a table? We have <thead> and <tfoot>,
and those respond to writing mode.

If a book uses 頭書 to refer to something in vertical writing, where is it
in relation to the text? Or is a different term used for vertical writing
vs. horizontal writing?

> line head	行頭	gyōtō	The position at which a line starts. (JIS Z 8125)
> line head alignment	行頭そろえ	gyōtō soroe	To align a run of text to the line head. (JIS Z 8125)
> line head indent	字下げ	jisage	To reserve a certain amount of space after the default position of a line head. (JIS Z 8125)

This seems like it would change which side is affected depending on the writing mode, no?
In horizontal writing it's not the same side as the "head" of the book, it's 90deg
counter-clockwise from that.

> running head	柱	hashira	A page element which contains information on the title of the book, chapter, section and so on, printed outside the area of the hanmen. (JIS Z 8125)

"Running head" is short for "Running header", so I think it's okay here.

> [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/#terminology
> In JLREQ, head/foot mean basically physical top/bottom and the 'line head' (行頭) means line-start.
> The headnote (頭注) is positioned in physical top area in vertical writing style.
> The footnote (脚注) is positioned in physical bottom area in both vertical/horizontal writing styles.
> (Note: 頭=head, 脚=foot)
> Are you ok if CSS spec terminology and Japanese layout terminology are so inconsistent?

I'm not too concerned if JLREQ is inconsistent, I'm a little more concerned
if Japanese itself is inconsistent.

> Personally, I think before/after are better.

But I'm pretty sure that before/after confuses many people. :/

Received on Thursday, 21 June 2012 01:41:13 UTC

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